233 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

It can only be resolved in one way, otherwise the world will diverge too far to follow it in the next game. And as dedicated templar fans are quite rare (the majority seems to be split between mage fans and "everyone is dumb"), it's far safer and more narratively interesting for the mage-leaning side to be the one that wins.

Make a canon for the next game, then. It's not like the choices in DAO, ME and ME2 mattered tham much in DA2, ME2 and ME3.
Having the outcome fixed in the mage's victory isn't interesting to me. Having different outcomes is what interest me, and which could increase the replayability of the game.
Would you be fine if they decided that the right choice is making the templars win and take the mages back in the Circle? The outcome you said that's more narratively interesting is more interesting to you because it's what you want. Which is fine, but it's not objectively better than other outcomes. People like and want different things. I for one will be disappointed regardless the outcome, if there's only one.

[Xilizhra]

hhh89 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It can only be resolved in one way, otherwise the world will diverge too far to follow it in the next game. And as dedicated templar fans are quite rare (the majority seems to be split between mage fans and "everyone is dumb"), it's far safer and more narratively interesting for the mage-leaning side to be the one that wins.

Make a canon for the next game, then. It's not like the choices in DAO, ME and ME2 mattered tham much in DA2, ME2 and ME3.
Having the outcome fixed in the mage's victory isn't interesting to me. Having different outcomes is what interest me, and which could increase the replayability of the game.
Would you be fine if they decided that the right choice is making the templars win and take the mages back in the Circle? The outcome you said that's more narratively interesting is more interesting to you because it's what you want. Which is fine, but it's not objectively better than other outcomes. People like and want different things. I for one will be disappointed regardless the outcome, if there's only one.

Them doing that would be idiotic in many ways, for reasons of popularity, narrative and so on. I'm sure some sort of bone can be thrown to anyone who might actually support the Circle system, I just don't quite know what it is.

[nightscrawl]

Xilizhra wrote...

How is that relevant to what I said?

Firstly, they're not making a game just for you. Secondly, this is a thread about the general grayness of the templar/mage issue, which applies to ALL mages, and not only you.

Saying "I will not succumb to any corruption" has no bearing on anything, unless you were the only mage in Thedas, which is not the case.

Finally, I posted those quotes to support my statement that they would like (not a guarantee obviously) to show more of that type of blood magic in the future, which means that either NPCs will make more use of it, our PC can possibly use it, or both.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 22 octobre 2012 - 02:00 .

[Fast Jimmy]

People have stated the theory that at the end of DA3, Sandal's prophecy will become true and "the magic will come back... all of it" means that everyone will be a mage.

At which point you can't put the whole world into a Circle and the issue resolves itself.

[Xilizhra]

nightscrawl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How is that relevant to what I said?

Firstly, they're not making a game just for you. Secondly, this is a thread about the general grayness of the templar/mage issue, which applies to ALL mages, and not only you.

Saying "I will not succumb to any corruption" has no bearing on anything, unless you were the only mage in Thedas, which is not the case.

Much of it is because I found Gaider's comment to be sort of irritating in the way it was expressed, as if it was casting aspersions on my own PC.

People have stated the theory that at the end of DA3, Sandal's prophecy
will become true and "the magic will come back... all of it" means that
everyone will be a mage.

At which point you can't put the whole world into a Circle and the issue resolves itself.

This would work too. It wouldn't necessitate either side actually winning, for instance.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 22 octobre 2012 - 01:59 .

[Terrorize69]

The greyline differs in each country/city.

Kirkwall was a case of the greyline being more in mages favour. A former slave city with Templars housing prisoners in a old slave prison.

Hardly generates a good light for Templars to begin with.

When Kirkwalls circle fell, like Varric said, it inspired others to want to be free and that they can fight for it.

[mousestalker]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

People have stated the theory that at the end of DA3, Sandal's prophecy will become true and "the magic will come back... all of it" means that everyone will be a mage.

At which point you can't put the whole world into a Circle and the issue resolves itself.

Then the bard's words will be made true and all our lives will be a circle.

Modifié par mousestalker, 22 octobre 2012 - 02:01 .

[MisterJB]

I'd like an answer on this as well.
The moral ambiguity of this issue is what makes it so much fun for me and, rigth now, there is nothing I fear more than seeing it succumb to the "Cerberus Treatment" where good goals achieved through less than savory but defensible method became "kill everything". It's horrible and simplistic writing and I would prefer it not be present in DA3.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

I'd like an answer on this as well.
The moral ambiguity of this issue is what makes it so much fun for me and, rigth now, there is nothing I fear more than seeing it succumb to the "Cerberus Treatment" where good goals achieved through less than savory but defensible method became "kill everything". It's horrible and simplistic writing and I would prefer it not be present in DA3.

Prefer away. Asunder did it already.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...


Them doing that would be idiotic in many ways, for reasons of popularity, narrative and so on. I'm sure some sort of bone can be thrown to anyone who might actually support the Circle system, I just don't quite know what it is.

The canon choice for DA4 or the templar-only choice for DA3?
It's not like they didn't follow the reason of popularity or narrative already in ME3.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Prefer away. Asunder did it already.

Asunder still did a decent job portraying templars like Lambert who, supposedly,  is the antagonist as having very good reasons for his actions while showing how a mage, Adrian, is the unresonable, selfish one who performs evil deeds to achieve her goals.
Asunder was, in fact, more grey and interesting than DA2. And even had it not been, just because there has been bad writing in the series, it doesn't mean we should encourage the writers to repeat it.

[Xilizhra]

The canon choice for DA4 or the templar-only choice for DA3?
It's not like they didn't follow the reason of popularity or narrative already in ME3.

Yes, and look how that turned out.

Asunder still did a decent job portraying templars like Lambert who, supposedly, is the antagonist as having very good reasons for his actions while showing how a mage, Adrian, is the unresonable, selfish one who performs evil deeds to achieve her goals.
Asunder was, in fact, more grey and interesting than DA2. And even had it not been, just because there has been bad writing in the series, it doesn't mean we should encourage the writers to repeat it.

Opinion. Lambert, to me, was evil and bloodthirsty to the core, while Adrian's actions were perfectly reasonable and somewhat commendable.

[nightscrawl]

Xilizhra wrote...

Much of it is because I found Gaider's comment to be sort of irritating in the way it was expressed, as if it was casting aspersions on my own PC.

He was responding to a specific question at PAX East. Here is the whole thing...

Q: And just a slight lore question: with Jowan, and Merrill, and Hawke, and the Warden being able to be a Blood Mage as well, it seems to me that to be a Blood Mage you don't necessarily have to be corrupt. Is that true, or am I just imagining it? Like it seems like you could be a good person, yet still be a Blood Mage.

A David: It's not corruption in the way that the Blight is a corruption... A lot of it is opinion and fear, [of] the things that a Blood Mage is capable of. Which, as we're moving forward, we'd like to show that a little bit more, especially the mind control. And it is based on people who have that kind of power, the ability to influence other people's minds, the temptation to misuse it is a corruption. That kind of power is corrupting, right? That's the danger, not a physical "I suddenly turn to the dark side and my eyes have gone black" kind of corruption.

This doesn't necessarily have to apply to blood magic of course, that just happens to be what is discussed. Wynne has a whole discussion with you about being a Grey Warden and having power over others that states basically those same points. This applies to any wielder of power whether it be a king who is a tyrant or a mage who uses blood magic to do harm.

And going by your other statements about freely using mind control, I would say that you and David (and me too for that matter) probably have a fundamental disagreement about power and its influence over a person.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Opinion. Lambert, to me, was evil and bloodthirsty to the core, while Adrian's actions were perfectly reasonable and somewhat commendable.

Opinion.
I can extract passages from the book where Evangeline thinks Lambert has good reasons for his suspicions and where Rhys wants to kill Adrian for what she did. That is their opinion but, at least, the book conveys a viewpoint that differs from "Big, bad templars just want to stop the mages from having any fun."
If you want to think that is what is happening, you are free to do so. Me, I'd prefer good writing that doesn't beat me over the head with simplistic morality.

[Xilizhra]

This doesn't necessarily have to apply to blood magic of course, that just happens to be what is discussed. Wynne has a whole discussion with you about being a Grey Warden and having power over others that states basically those same points. This applies to any wielder of power whether it be a king who is a tyrant or a mage who uses blood magic to do harm.

Using blood magic itself is the power, and one isn't forced to do harm with it.

And going by your other statements about freely using mind control, I would say that you and David (and me too for that matter) probably have a fundamental disagreement about power and its influence over a person.

I consider temporary mind control to be quite a bit more moral than just killing someone, and if sometimes people have to die to achieve one's goals (just look at the oceans of blood Hawke wades through in one city), sometimes people might need to be controlled as well.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Opinion. Lambert, to me, was evil and bloodthirsty to the core, while Adrian's actions were perfectly reasonable and somewhat commendable.

Opinion.
I can extract passages from the book where Evangeline thinks Lambert has good reasons for his suspicions and where Rhys wants to kill Adrian for what she did. That is their opinion but, at least, the book conveys a viewpoint that differs from "Big, bad templars just want to stop the mages from having any fun."
If you want to think that is what is happening, you are free to do so. Me, I'd prefer good writing that doesn't beat me over the head with simplistic morality.

Note that Evangeline, the one sympathetic templar, left the Order.
I'm sure there'll be some decent templars. If there are, I'll give them the same choice to prove their decency. If not... well, if they fight me, they'll be dead. Such is war.

[The Hierophant]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

People have stated the theory that at the end of DA3, Sandal's prophecy will become true and "the magic will come back... all of it" means that everyone will be a mage.

At which point you can't put the whole world into a Circle and the issue resolves itself.

Wouldn't this render the warrior, and rogue classes obsolete as it would be simpler to blast someone with magic instead?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 22 octobre 2012 - 02:20 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Note that Evangeline, the one sympathetic templar, left the Order.

The only one you consider to be a sympathetic templar. I can point out many others who I consider to good templars.

I'm sure there'll be some decent templars. If there are, I'll give them the same choice to prove their decency. If not... well, if they fight me, they'll be dead. Such is war.

I don't care how you play your game. I care how the game is written.
If Bioware gives the option to kill every single templar you meet, I couldn't care less. So long as the game doesn't force me to do it or actually try to convince me that they are the wrong, the Circle system is wrong or that mages are incapable of commiting evil.
I want the game's morality to be complex grey and open to interpretation. If you choose to play it in a simplistic manner, be my guest.

[Xilizhra]

I don't care how you play your game. I care how the game is written.
If Bioware gives the option to kill every single templar you meet, I couldn't care less. So long as the game doesn't force me to do it or actually try to convince me that they are the wrong, the Circle system is wrong or that mages are incapable of commiting evil.
I want the game's morality to be complex grey and open to interpretation. If you choose to play it in a simplistic manner, be my guest.

You don't have to kill every Cerberus member you meet in ME3 either. You can even finish the game by fulfilling their own goal.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

The canon choice for DA4 or the templar-only choice for DA3?
It's not like they didn't follow the reason of popularity or narrative already in ME3.

Yes, and look how that turned out.

I agree, but that doesn't mean they couldn't try it again (al least going against popularity, this time maybe with decent writers during the decisions).
Not that I want a templar-only outcome. I want multiple outcomes. In this way everything could have the end they wants (or the majority). Their decision during the development of the game shouldn't be influenced by the problem that could came during the development of the sequel.

[The Elder King]

Terrorize69 wrote...

The greyline differs in each country/city.

Kirkwall was a case of the greyline being more in mages favour. A former slave city with Templars housing prisoners in a old slave prison.
.

There's no grayness in Kirkwall. Both groups were badly rapresented.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
You don't have to kill every Cerberus member you meet in ME3 either. You can even finish the game by fulfilling their own goal.

Which doesn't change the fact that Cerberus in ME3 suffered of horrible and simplistic writing whose actions made no sense and were basically there for Shepard to have something to shoot at.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

You don't have to kill every Cerberus member you meet in ME3 either. You can even finish the game by fulfilling their own goal.

Neither type of Control fullfill the goal of Cerberus in ME3. Humanity is considered as the other race by the new AI.

[Vandicus]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

People have stated the theory that at the end of DA3, Sandal's prophecy will become true and "the magic will come back... all of it" means that everyone will be a mage.

At which point you can't put the whole world into a Circle and the issue resolves itself.

If everyone becomes a mage it would be a borderline zombie apocalypse scenario.

Imagine, the entire population of Kirkwall becomes susceptible to possession. That's tens of thousands of abominations right there. Elsewhere, the common people and nobility are untrained to resist demonic influence(which is the purpose of the Harrowing). Even if as few as 1 in ten of the general population is possessed where the veil is normal, they can then in turn force the possession of other "new mages". With the exception of those who are Circle trained mages and Tevinter mages, the world will rapidly destroy itself(though the Qunari may be an exception to this rule, their extraordinary devotion to their collectivist society might keep them from being influenced by demons).

[MisterJB]

So, Mr.Gaider, are you at any liberty to say anything about this topic.
I would like to know if I should buy DA3 or not.