233 réponses à ce sujet

[Knight of Dane]

I hope both mages and templars are presented as two good choises instead of two bad. In DA2 i really wanted to play neutral simply because of the maddness on both sides. It would have been a more conflicting choise for me if I had more sympathy for both sides.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Templars had somehow the same restraint of the mages in term of sex. The Chantry is against templars forming families (though they're not forbidden) and mages couldn't form faimilies at all. The mages, actually, had probably more freedom in having sex than the templars.
Though it doesn't mean much anyway. In this war, there'll be people of both groups who will be involved in rape, pillage and torture. Those are given in any war.

So long as the game shows that both sides are human and with faults.
I don't want to see all templars pillaging villages for money for lyrium while mages do nothing but heal the sick and wounded.
How about a group of templars pillage a village for money for lyrium to fight the mages while a group of mages enslaves a village through blood magic to fight the templars?

I'm fine with that (though I'm neither pro-mage or pro-templar). I said in my first post in this thread that I want the game to show the good parts and the bad parts of both groups.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
But with each new sequel/book/comic, the balance is getting more an more out of whack.
It is getting harder and harder to defend the Templar/Chantry side.

I'd say the mages are also harder to support after DA2 and Asunder.  It's almost as though the DA team is taking the George R.R. Martin approach toward making every faction morally ambiguous--instead of showing the good or the humanity in each, we get shown lots and lots of the ugliness in mages and templars alike.  I've got mixed feelings about this portrayal--it's certainly more brutal and interesting, but it also makes both parties significantly less sympathetic IMO.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Wulfram wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

- show the problems of other, non-Cirlce systems. Show why they wouldn't work.

Should be show why the Templars think they wouldn't work, or why they might not work.  I don't think the game should take the point of view that locking up mages is the only possible solution.

We already have been shown why the Circle system sucks.

It's "defense" was that it was an ugly, but effective system.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

- show the problems of other, non-Cirlce systems. Show why they wouldn't work.

Should be show why the Templars think they wouldn't work, or why they might not work.  I don't think the game should take the point of view that locking up mages is the only possible solution.

We already have been shown why the Circle system sucks.

It's "defense" was that it was an ugly, but effective system.

LOL! A police force that is addicted is hardly defendable.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 22 octobre 2012 - 08:57 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dunno, the templars we've seen seem perfectly fine in regards to their mental faculties.
Lyrium isn't LSD.

And in case you are right, you're just making my point for me and proving the templars need better presentation.

[PsychoBlonde]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And for everyone else - how would you deal with this if you were the writer? 
What would you do to mantain the greyness?

I don't know if I'd want to maintain this exact greyness--I'd switch the ground, which has at least partially already happened with the discovery in Asunder that Tranquility can be reversed.  I'd much rather the story switch over from "MAGES v. TEMPLARS, ROUND 4!  FIGHT!!!" to questions like "what IS the nature of magic?" or "what created demons?" or "Are the Qunari right and NOTHING short of total oppression can control mages?"

And, I'd make the answers to at least some of the questions HORRIBLE but still no SOLUTION.  (Well, I'd leave some hope.  Who knows what The Gaider will do.)  That's how you keep a grey conflict going without it becoming a tail-chasing exercise.

[BlueMagitek]

I think DA:O did it right. Mages were presented as dangerous, but there was a justifiable complaint in the limiting freedom of the Circle, Templars were not a band of abusive rapists but reasonable, if stern. You see both good and bad results from mages living outside of the Circle (Wilhelm, Jowan vs. Connor, the Baroness). You see that magic can be used for horrible things (the Circle) and great things (Wynne's spirit bond), and a host of things in between (Avernus, the Ritual).

And, you know, you had some pretty cool mage factions. Pity we've never really seen an Isolationist or a Lucrosian.

[MisterJB]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Pity we've never really seen an Isolationist

Niall.

[Fast Jimmy]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dunno, the templars we've seen seem perfectly fine in regards to their mental faculties.
Lyrium isn't LSD.

True... but it would be a LOT COOLER if it WAS!!!

[BlueMagitek]

Was he a member or just sympathetic to their cause?

[Bad King]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Early on, way back in ye days of Dragon Age: Origins,  Gaider said that he wanted to circel/Mage/Templar/Chantry dillema to be grey. And the team did a pretty good job at it.

But with each new sequel/book/comic, the balance is getting more an more out of whack.
It is getting harder and harder to defend the Templar/Chantry side.
The templar abuse is getting ramped up the whazoo.
Meanwhile, the mages acting up is always handwaved as circumstantial (the veil was thin, they were pushed by circumstances...basicly it always boils down to "the Chantry/templars are to blame")

Now ever since ME2 I feared this is where it might end up...the Cerberus treatment, where Templars/Chantry will suddenly become incompetent, stupid and pure evil.
As it is I've seen no indication this won't be the case.

The question to you devs, is how do you  feel on this issue? Do you think the blance is great as is or that it need fixing?

And for everyone else - how would you deal with this if you were the writer?
What would you do to mantain the greyness?

Agreed. I really hope that the Templars don't get treated the way Cerberus did in ME3:

"I am the saviour of humanity, I am the pinnacle of our species, derp." 

[Vandicus]

Bad King wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Early on, way back in ye days of Dragon Age: Origins,  Gaider said that he wanted to circel/Mage/Templar/Chantry dillema to be grey. And the team did a pretty good job at it.

But with each new sequel/book/comic, the balance is getting more an more out of whack.
It is getting harder and harder to defend the Templar/Chantry side.
The templar abuse is getting ramped up the whazoo.
Meanwhile, the mages acting up is always handwaved as circumstantial (the veil was thin, they were pushed by circumstances...basicly it always boils down to "the Chantry/templars are to blame")

Now ever since ME2 I feared this is where it might end up...the Cerberus treatment, where Templars/Chantry will suddenly become incompetent, stupid and pure evil.
As it is I've seen no indication this won't be the case.

The question to you devs, is how do you  feel on this issue? Do you think the blance is great as is or that it need fixing?

And for everyone else - how would you deal with this if you were the writer?
What would you do to mantain the greyness?

Agreed. I really hope that the Templars don't get treated the way Cerberus did in ME3:

"I am the saviour of humanity, I am the pinnacle of our species, derp." 

I was anti-Cerberus in every playthrough, and Cerberus seriously faceplanted in ME3. They go from an organization with understandable motives and questionable means, to being mad scientists and just in general nutty.

[SirDoctorofTARDIS]

If I had a choice I'd have it be more then just Mages vs Templars. You'd have the crazy blood mages and the Zealous Templars but there would also be some Templars who side with the mages because they think their their job was to protect Mages and the others aren't doing that. Or some mages who though the circle was a good idea or there scared of possession might fight with the Templars.

[Sir JK]

I think the key to real ambigouty lie in making both sides to very human things, both compassionate, good and well-thought through, and things with horrendous and escalating consequences and upalatable alternatives. We need both sides to do good and bad things. Both to the general public and to one another.

For the templars sake we need decent templars who seem like very nice persons. Now, naturally, conflicted about their role in the order. But generally doing stuff like preventing mobs from lynching mages, helping mages that actually did good to flee from their comrades, diverting the course from following a mage to saving innocents caught in cross fire. Things like that.
Equally we'd need to be shown templars who relish in the fight, bitter mages who indulges in harsch cruelty to mages (maybe because of what they have seen happen to their friends) and so on. Good and bad.

Blood magic, insanity and demons are all well and good, but fail really to point oút any general danger of mages. It's just the "exceptions". Demons in particular, I think the only way to truly hammer in the danger mages face in regards to demons is to actually subject the player to a demon-possession. A sidetrack in the narrative in which a demon manipulates the player, making them go further and further until you step over the treshold and the demons reveals it's plot and takes over. Game over. You can step away from the path at any time, but only at a great and terrible cost in regards to the goal.
That, or something equalient, is the only thing that can truly tell us just how dangerous demonic possession is. Make it personal.(Also, non-standard game over... though care needs to be taken naturally).

Similarily, the dangers of blood magic is best experienced. Something that happens to a companion perhaps (now that'd be cruel ). But I don't know.

But to show the ambigouty of the normal mages, a great way to showcase their danger is to simply put them in a situation were it becomes abundantly clear that even with no demons, no insanity, mages are dangerous.

An idea that popped up in my head would be an occupied village. A mage party has forced their way into a village. They need it to serve as a base for a while. The village elder was uncooperative (due to bad harvests, the village can't feed the mages and themselves) and has either been put to sleep (not killed though) or is mindcontrolled. The mages literally can't leave without putting the entire rebellion at risk.
The mages aren't trying to be malevolent, but the population never speaks up to them, just stares into the ground and clenches their fists.
One young woman is the subject of a mage's flirting, she is not interested but he is not relenting. Her brother steps up to stop it, an argument happens and the mage just pushes him away magically. Not hurting him, but also preventing him from stepping in and protecting his sister.
A barn has been burnt down, three graves recently dug lie beside it. The mage who did it in drunken rage has been punished/is about to the punished and is currently feeling the full weight of his own guilt as he realised that two occupants were children. Noone intended it, noone wanted it... but three persons are dead. A mage, not the pulprit, lament the pointlessness of it all.
The local chantry is desecrated, a handful of villagers desperately seek it out to repair it and pray for salvation. A mage want to help out but feels it's best to keep his distance, he/she relises that it would probably do more harm than good. For extra darkness, toss in a blinded lay sister/revered mother and a subtle implication of rape (but never proven) and a group of mages promising that if they found out who did it, they'll let the villagers do what they please with him. They'll just stand back and dispel everything the pulprit tries to do.

I'm not saying I want that specific situation, but something along similar lines. Show mages (and templars/Chantry members) who means well, but the harsch realities corrupt their intentions once translated into actions. The dangers in the ordinary, in the compromises that makes life. The true greyness of both factions, need to be the relatable, The things you see and think "damn... that could have been me".

And as I mentioned, manipulation (demons) needs to be personally experienced. Corruption (blood magic) need to be either something we do ourselves (and called upon) or a great betrayal of the trust we gave someone.

Just my humble opinion.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Some good suggestions people.

Keep them coming. General ideas or very specific scenarios.

[TEWR]

To give a very minor example:

Per the lore, lyrium withdrawal and overuse can cause in Templars paranoia, delusions, and according to Samson possibly death.

So I'd have a group of Rogue Templars pillaging a village for supplies and money in a desperate desire to have enough money for lyrium, possibly slaughtering villagers believing them to be blood mages or thralls of blood mages.

As for Mages, I'd like to see a group of Resolutionists hellbent on restoring the Imperium working towards that goal, what with summoning demons, sacrificing innocents, profaning the dead, having thralls, etc.

It'd also be kinda funny if both of those groups clashed. It'd be a "Support the lesser evil" type of thing -- the Templars there being the lesser evil, but still evil.

Also, I'd like to see a Mage fighting Darkspawn -- a lot of them in an effort to save a village -- and becoming overpowered, and thus offering his body to a Demon in exchange for fighting the Darkspawn and only the Darkspawn until the danger passed. It'd be foolish certainly, but also heroic. 

Really, just to see an Abomination vs. Darkspawn. I've never seen that before, but would really like to. And since it'd be a willing merger, it'd be akin to Connor.  So maybe we could help free him if our choices in the game were right, or be forced to kill him so he can't actually go Slavemaster Abomination on the village he just saved.

Now, for the good of the Templars I'd like to see some supporting the Divine -- I lean more towards Ferelden's Templars and Kirkwall's under Cullen doing this -- and helping the Mages fight the douchebag Templars, but while also investigating any and all claims of magical anomalies. I'd like to see Templars actually doing their job and interacting well with Mages and non-Mages alike, like Ser Otto did for the Alienage.

I'd like to see the Templars start to become Spirit Warriors as well, and start to recognize some much needed distinctions in Chantry doctrine and the abilities people might do. I'd like to see the good Templars recognizing that Demonology and Blood Magic are not one and the same. And though often linked together, you can do the former without the latter.

I'd like to see the Mages healing people and defending villagers without resorting to blood magic, free of charge. And if they do use blood magic, they use only their own or the blood of their enemies, but at the cost of the villagers possibly reviling them and proclaiming their fear of them.

I'd like to see the Mages offering their services to the Divine in exchange for more freedoms -- whilst still limited and with restrictions -- so as to improve their perception in the eyes of the populus. This way, we'd see that the Mages are reasonable.

And as possible addition to that: They wouldn't be bowing down to the Chantry yet -- as they'd retain their autonomy until such a time as negotiations succeed -- but they would help the Divine achieve such a thing.

I'd like to see more cases of child Mages getting possessed due to a lack of knowledge, while also seeing some Mages elsewhere teaching child Mages how to properly handle their magic.

I'd like to see some of Divine Justinia V's reforms for the Circle. I'd like to hear about the secrets the Chantry is no doubt keeping, like in regards to Andraste who is quite possibly a Mage.

Ultimately, it comes down to showing the good and bad of both sides.

And for the love of God I wish they'd just retcon Orsino going bonkers for a pro-Mage Hawke. Also, present us with two leaders of the Mage-Templar War who are well fleshed out as characters.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:32 .

[Fredward]

I always saw it as more chartreuse hued myself...

[Sable Rhapsody]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And for the love of God I wish they'd just retcon Orsino going bonkers for a pro-Mage Hawke. Also, present us with two leaders of the Mage-Templar War who are well fleshed out as characters.

Yeah, this.  The nonsensical nature of Best Served Cold for a pro-mage character was really bizarre and jarring.

I'd like to see better fleshed out leaders in the conflict at large, not just at the head of the mage/templar armies. Dumar and Elthina were utterly useless if somewhat more sympathetic, and Meredith and Orsino were class-A nutters, at least in-game.  The Arishok was IMO better done--still a strong antagonist, but if you bothered talking to him, a well fleshed out character in his own right.

Divine Justinia V looks like she has potential to be an awesome character, at least from Asunder.  We'll see.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Interesting, but I will not succumb to any corruption.

Xil, I've personally already had a hand in the  corruption of your ideals. Two, three years ago you regularly oppossed teleological ethics: now you regularly subscribe to them, between bouts of deontological resurgence.

[Pauravi]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Early on, way back in ye days of
Dragon Age: Origins,  Gaider said that he wanted to
circel/Mage/Templar/Chantry dillema to be grey. And the team did a
pretty good job at it.

But with each new sequel/book/comic, the balance is getting more an more out of whack.
It is getting harder and harder to defend the Templar/Chantry side.

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment, honestly.

I can see how that impression is given because of Meredith and her iron-fisted cruelty towards the mages.  But at the same time we also see much more reasonable Chantry / Templar characters in Grand Cleric Elthina and Templar Thrask, and much LESS  reasonable mage characters in Anders and Orsino.  We also see with Feynriel the sorts of dangers that mages can pose to themselves as well as those around them.

Although the amount of animosity and outright displays of violence has increased on both sides, I think they've actually done a good job of showing that each side has both its fanatics and moderates.

Darth Death wrote...

Mage/Templar/Chantry are all crazy. "Greyness" doesn't exist after DA2.

I don't see how this statement makes any sense.  Like, at all.
If all sides are crazy, how does that make things less grey?  Each is just as contemptable as the other.  It becomes about picking the lesser evil, and there are any number of reasons you could come up with to say that either side is more evil than the other.  The Templars are tyrants who rip people's children away in a quest to enslave, tranquilize, or kill all mages simply for being born, while the mages are demon-summoning terrorists who are a danger to every innocent bystander.  How exactly is that a black and white situation?

Modifié par Pauravi, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:54 .

[NUM13ER]

I'd say the largest problem with the Mage/Templar conflict was the fact that in DA2 they were both largely as bad as each other.

Meridith was bat**** insane, in part due to her own bad experiences with Mages and then making herself worse by wielding a magical sword. So in short the woman preaching about the dangers of magic secretly purchases a magical artifact of unknown origin to enhance her skills. Then Orsino decides two can play at the hypocrisy game and gives blood magic a whirl to turn himself into an abomination.

Grey and Gray morality when done properly gives both sides sympathetic qualities as well as flaws. In Kirkwall however both sides were filled with evil swine you'd gladly run through with a sword. Respectable members on both sides were too few and far between in DAII.

[Pauravi]

Bad King wrote...

Agreed. I really hope that the Templars don't get treated the way Cerberus did in ME3:
"I am the saviour of humanity, I am the pinnacle of our species, derp." 

I don't think they will, because I don't think the Templars are meant to resemble Cerberus.

BioWare did a good job with Cerberus in that they provided them a coherent reason for the way they acted.  This made them into a plausible enemy whose motivations you could even sympathize with.  This is important, because a bunch of normal human beings being affiliated with an organization whose sole purpose is to be the evil antagonist is really stupid and unrealistic.  It is important for an antagonist to be something coherent and believable.

The thing that makes them different from the Templars, though, is that Cerberus was always a contemptable organization.  They were racist bastards to the core, and even from the very outset were clearly interested in advancing humanity's military and political might at the expense of virtually anything and anyone, even the humans they claimed to be fighting to protect.  Eventually that greedy quest for ultimate power did them in, and it did so in a way that I think is very consistent and reasonable within the ME universe.  We'd known since the first game that Reaper tech could indoctrinate people, yet Illusive Man toyed with it constantly and even tried to use the Collector Base.  It seems obvious what that would lead to, and the insidiousness of indoctrination would ensure that TIM wouldn't ever consider the danger that he was exposing himself to.

The Templars, on the other hand, were meant from the beginning to be on one side of a dilemma that is inherent in the Dragon Age universe: What do you do when giving one group freedom comes at the cost of people's lives?  This is a question that, regardless of what you think of the Chantry, or Templars, doesn't have a clear and obvious answer.  Unlike xenophobia and racism which, I hope we can all agree, is bad under any circumstance.

[Dave of Canada]

It's unfortunate how mages must be restricted but they cannot be allowed to roam free, they must take their superior lifestyle and learn to tolerate it while the Templar protect them from their own folly. The Divine's mage sympathies shows her as too short-sighted and she must be replaced with one who'd see things from the Templar perspective.