233 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Also without Tranquil, Circle towers wouldn't be able to sustain themselves. It's probably their biggest source of income.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Also without Tranquil, Circle towers wouldn't be able to sustain themselves. It's probably their biggest source of income.

Then a new way will be found. What that is, I'm not yet certain, but if DA3 gives a plan for the mages to live without the Chantry, then I'm sure a way will be provided.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Tranquility is a hideous and permanent torment. All Tranquil who left that state begged to be killed before their connection to the Fade was lost again.

And maybe if we ressurected someone they would beg to not die again. Death is far more hideous and permanent.
Some people are far too dangerous to be left alone. Adrian is one of them. If you let someone out of prison, they would beg to not be put there again. It doesn't mean it's an inhumane punishment.

Also, I can't help but notice you deliberately ignored the rest of my post where I debunked your logic.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:00 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Have I ever denied anyone the right to choose the actions of their PCs?

I wasn't claiming you were. Some people see Adrian differently than you. It's no different than the schism between those people who agree with the templars and the Chantry controlled Circles, and other people who advocate mage autonomy from the Chantry. Or the view on tranquility. Some people think the Rite of Tranquility is repugnant, horrific, and monstrous. I would never want to put someone through that.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Also without Tranquil, Circle towers wouldn't be able to sustain themselves. It's probably their biggest source of income.

Then a new way will be found. What that is, I'm not yet certain, but if DA3 gives a plan for the mages to live without the Chantry, then I'm sure a way will be provided.

That's rather short-sighted. Tearing down a system with nothing to replace it has never worked, saying you'll find a way reeks of blind idealism.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:03 .

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Tranquility is a hideous and permanent torment. All Tranquil who left that state begged to be killed before their connection to the Fade was lost again.

And maybe if we ressurected someone they would beg to not die again. Death is far more hideous and permanent.
Some people are far too dangerous to be left alone. Adrian is one of them. If you let someone out of prison, they would beg to not be put there again. It doesn't mean it's an inhumane punishment.

Also, I can't help but notice you deliberately ignored the rest of my post where I debunked your logic.

If they would rather die than go back into said prison, that does make it an inhumane punishment.

And to be frank, you didn't debunk my logic. You're still advocating the use of horrible mental violations for your own religion-fueled drive for vengeance, and it remains just as heinous and unnecessary as when this started. I just no longer have the inclination to discuss this issue at length with you.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I wasn't claiming you were. Some people see Adrian differently than you. It's no different than the schism between those people who agree with the templars and the Chantry controlled Circles, and other people who advocate mage autonomy from the Chantry. Or the view on tranquility. Some people think the Rite of Tranquility is repugnant, horrific, and monstrous.

Alright, I acknowledge that. Is there a point to this beyond asserting the obvious?

I would never want to put someone through that.

Really? Not Danarius, Howe, Alrik?

[Xilizhra]

That's rather short-sighted. Tearing down a system with nothing to replace it has never worked, saying you'll find a way reeks of blind idealism.

It's only blind because we can't see the modern DA world, or the real circumstances of the rebellion, because we don't have DA3 yet. I've never, in-game, had the chance to start any kind of mage rebellion; all I've ever done is defend against genocide. I won't try to build the rebellion in DA3 without a plan.

Really? Not Danarius, Howe, Alrik?

No. Never.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:05 .

[Sharn01]

MisterJB wrote...

I take offence to that. DA is a game where the players must kill others routinelly. Some mages are dangerous and the Rite of Tranquility serves as a way to neutralize the dangers these people represent without being forced to execute them.
Rape is just pointless and cruel. It makes no one safer.

I find it odd that people scream about the danger's of mind control because it removes a person's free will but have no problem with tranquility,  at least the mind control of blood magic is temporary and can be resisted by some.  Death is preferable to tranquility in many peoples eyes.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
If they would rather die than go back into said prison, that does make it an inhumane punishment.

Oh, that would work wonderfully in our world. Whenever we caught a criminal, he could just claim he would rather die than go to prison and then we could do nothing about it. Oh wait, you'd support killing him on the spot.

And to be frank, you didn't debunk my logic. You're still advocating the use of horrible mental violations for your own religion-fueled drive for vengeance, and it remains just as heinous and unnecessary as when this started. I just no longer have the inclination to discuss this issue at length with you.

Sure I did. Despite your claims, Tranquility has no connection whatsoever to sexual assaults.
And I don't give two figs about the Maker. Stopping Adrian It's about justice and about ending a war that is tearing the world apart.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...


Really? Not Danarius, Howe, Alrik?

Why not simply kill them?

[MisterJB]

Sharn01 wrote...
I find it odd that people scream about the danger's of mind control because it removes a person's free will but have no problem with tranquility,  at least the mind control of blood magic is temporary and can be resisted by some.  Death is preferable to tranquility in many peoples eyes.

Tranquility is harder to perform. And I don't have a problem with it so long as it is reserved for those who deserve it or when there truly a need for it.

And no offence meant but I can't find take it seriously when people claim that they prefer death over something. We don't know anything about death, how can you know if it is preferable or not?

[Vicious]

This thread went off the rails quick...

But yes, The Templars have almost certainly gotten the Cerberus treatment. With the exception of one Templar character in Asunder, they are pretty psychotic in Asunder, while the Mages led by Rhys are clearly 'good' guys who were persecuted.

Modifié par Vicious, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:16 .

[Xilizhra]

Tranquility is harder to perform. And I don't have a problem with it so long as it is reserved for those who deserve it or when there truly a need for it.

But you do have a problem with blood magic.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
Why not simply kill them?

Why kill them if there is a way of making them harmless?
I'm starting to think videogames do make people too used to death.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Why not simply kill them?

Why kill them if there is a way of making them harmless?
I'm starting to think videogames do make people too used to death.

Would you use Tranquility as punishment for all the criminals who deserve a death sentence?
And I wasn't suggesting that I'd chose death. I'd put them in prison. They'd harmless in that case too. If the choice are prison, Tranquility and death, I'd chose the first.

Modifié par hhh89, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:23 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
But you do have a problem with blood magic.

As much as I have a problem with placing a gun in the hands of a child or a criminal. The gun may not be inherently evil but it's still unwise to do so.
Blood Magic is the most unstable and prone to abuse form of magic. It must be kept in the hands of experienced mages who have proven themselves trusthworthy and only to be used under a contained environment.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

Blood Magic is the most unstable and prone to abuse form of magic. It must be kept in the hands of experienced mages who have proven themselves trusthworthy and only to be used under a contained environment.

I'd say it's better if it'd be banned, but I'm fine with your suggestion.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Really? Not Danarius, Howe, Alrik?

Yes, I don't see my Surana Warden or my apostate Hawke putting someone through the Rite of Tranquility, despite how different the two protagonists were. My Surana Warden killed Howe and Vaughan, and there was no better feeling than putting that sadistic, racist rapist out of his misery. My apostate Hawke killed Alrik and defeated Danarius for Fenris. I don't see the point in putting a person through that; I'd prefer death to being a puppet for the remainder of my life.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
Would you use Tranquility as punishment for all the criminals who deserve a death sentence?
Otherwise, I'd put them in prison. They'd harmless in that case too. If the choice are prison, Tranquility and death, I'd chose the first.

Not everyone is harmless inside a prison. And the mages are not in prisons now. There are some like Anders and Adrian who will be unwilling to reach any form of compromise to end the war.
Is it better to just execute these mages?

[the_one_54321]

The Qunari have an excellent understanding of how to effectively handle mages. There is no "gray area." There is only danger, usefulness, and the unwillingness to compromise.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

But you do have a problem with blood magic.

Blood magic isn't evil. I don't see why some people vilify it. Grey Warden mages have used blood magic; I had my Surana Warden use blood magic for the same reasons other members of the order did: to give him an edge against the darkspawn. Apostates use blood magic to keep their freedom from templars who can shut down their magical abilities, which is the same rationale I used for my apostate Hawke. I think blood magic can mean the difference between life and death for a mage looking to his freedom.

The rift between the Chantry and the Order of Templars in relation to mage autonomy is never going to be bridged, but one certain tool that mages can use in the Templar-Mage War to win the battles against the enemy is blood magic.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Would you use Tranquility as punishment for all the criminals who deserve a death sentence?
Otherwise, I'd put them in prison. They'd harmless in that case too. If the choice are prison, Tranquility and death, I'd chose the first.

Not everyone is harmless inside a prison. And the mages are not in prisons now. There are some like Anders and Adrian who will be unwilling to reach any form of compromise to end the war.
Is it better to just execute these mages?

Considering that with the Tranquility you strip a person of all his emotions, and that one of the people who regained his emotions preferred to die (There are one or others in Asunder, but I don't know his/their reactions), I don't know.  And about being harmless in prison, there are ways to make mages harmless. I'm sure the templars know some, and maybe you can ask some Tal-Vashot for the methos used by the qunari.
Plus, your method of using the Rite without capturing them (the one you posted earlier, about going in the Fade and kill them) will work if that mage isn't present in the Fade in the moment? And if you're on the templar side or Chantry side in the war, where will you find the mages to go to the Fade.
Let me ask you a question: if you capture Adrian, will you execute the Rite?

[Dave of Canada]

hhh89 wrote...

Why not simply kill them?

Tranquility allows them to still live, pose no threat to others, provide for the Circles or start their own lives and make something of themselves despite their punishment. Death is just... final, serves nothing.

Having Anders rebuild the Chantry cathedral in Kirkwall for example would've been humorous and a well-deserving punishment, rather than simply killing him to become a martyr to any stupid mages who'd follow his example.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:34 .

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

But you do have a problem with blood magic.

Blood magic isn't evil. I don't see why some people vilify it. Grey Warden mages have used blood magic; I had my Surana Warden use blood magic for the same reasons other members of the order did: to give him an edge against the darkspawn. Apostates use blood magic to keep their freedom from templars who can shut down their magical abilities, which is the same rationale I used for my apostate Hawke. I think blood magic can mean the difference between life and death for a mage looking to his freedom.

Blood magic gives the mages an immense power, and not everyone will use it for good. Not everyone use blood magic like the Wardens. If I'll side with the mages I'll be against its use, and after the war I'd propose its ban.