357 réponses à ce sujet

[Dasher1010]

Like if you're the inquisitor it's pretty obvious that your job is to bring the Circle adn Templars back under Chantry control. I think that kind of means that the PC worships Andraste

Modifié par Dasher1010, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:02 .

[TsaiMeLemoni]

1. We don't know if the PC is the inquisitor (if we DO know, please provide a link)
2. People like choices


For me the whole religious thing is a non-issue, I don't care either way. I do however realize that it is important for many people, especially those that may be atheist IRL.

[Teddie Sage]

No one ever said that you play the inquisitor.

[Aulis Vaara]

Because many people believe the Maker isn't real (in universe, obviously) and they want to keep challenging that notion. I could also never play a religious human. Pantheistic elf on the other hand... she know her gods are either missing or made up, but she still still remembers them and prays to them because they are a part of her otherwise lost culture.

[In Exile]

But even if you did, there are lots of atheist players, and they would like to have atheist characters.

Though personally I don't get the objection to most of DA2, re: religious lines (e.g. Diplo-Hawke's battle cry), as an atheist myself.

[The Hierophant]

Gathered from what i read of people's misgivings about being an inquisitor it's a combination of a dislike of the religion, playing a character they view as set, another human pc, feels that it limits the rp aspect of the game, and etc. for anything that's obscure or nonsensical.

[Xilizhra]

The Hierophant wrote...

Gathered from what i read of people's misgivings about being an inquisitor it's a combination of a dislike of the religion, playing a character they view as set, another human pc, feels that it limits the rp aspect of the game, and etc. for anything that's obscure or nonsensical.

Much of that, yes.

[In Exile]

The Hierophant wrote...

Gathered from what i read of people's misgivings about being an inquisitor it's a combination of a dislike of the religion, playing a character they view as set, another human pc, feels that it limits the rp aspect of the game, and etc. for anything that's obscure or nonsensical.

Frankly, I can't see I <3 Andraste as being different from DA:O's forced I <3 Ferelden and/or I <3 the Grey Wardens, other than it seems that in this case most players on BSN actually don't <3 Andraste.

Modifié par In Exile, 22 octobre 2012 - 01:36 .

[The Elder King]

Teddie Sage wrote...

No one ever said that you play the inquisitor.

No one ever said the Inquisition will be under the Chantry either.

[LobselVith8]

I can imagine there are some people who have absolutely no interest in playing as a character who works for the Chantry. Some of us view the institution as a monstrous organization. I also don't see why we can't have the same choices we did in Origins. Why should the protagonist be forced to worship the Maker? If the player plays as an apostate, why should the character be forced to believe in an anti-mage religion?

There were options to express atheism in Origins and Awakening. I went through the story with my Surana Warden, who didn't believe in the Maker or a higher power. He condemned the Chantry for the fall of the Dales, he informed Leliana he didn't believe Andraste was divine, and he explained to Justice that he didn't believe in the Maker. I really enjoyed playing as the character, because there were a plethora of choices for me to address his background (as I chose where he originally came from before being sent to the Circle) and his views.

Hawke, on the other hand, never felt like my character, and I didn't have a choice when he told Feynriel (a person who worshipped the Creators) that he hoped the Maker guided him, and that he believed Leandra was with the Maker. I didn't like how the choices I had with my Warden were now removed from me, and I didn't think the changes were for the better.

If the Inquisitor is Hawke 2.0, then I don't think Inquisition will be for me. I certainly have no interest in playing as another religiously Andrastian human.

[Perlicka]

Dasher1010 wrote...

Like if you're the inquisitor it's pretty obvious that your job is to bring the Circle adn Templars back under Chantry control. I think that kind of means that the PC worships Andraste

I don't want to bring circle back under chantry control, not sure what with lyrium addicted templars... (maybe close them in towers instead of mages and cure them
I hope we will get this choice

[brushyourteeth]

This thread isn't going to turn out well...

[Mims]

I am myself a religious person. I love learning about other religions, even fantasy ones.

However, the spiritual and emotional aspect of a character in what is supposed to be an RPG should be under the control of the player. Its one thing to set up a character with a set background, and another to say, "well, the character must be this."

Now, that doesn't mean the PC should be flaunting their beliefs. I can understand that a PC going around bashing Andraste or whatever religion might find themselves persecuted or unable to rise in rank. But it wouldn't be hard to indicate that the character was jaded with the whole idea, or simply playing along. You know, exactly how plenty of people actually did back then and now.

I think one of bioware's best conversations about religion was the conversation between Ashley and Shepard in ME1. Shepard can either be religious, or non religious. There was another really good conversation between them in ME3, and I was very sorry to see it cut.

It isn't just about projecting personal beliefs. Its about controlling something that is very intimate to a character. It isn't like saying, well, Shepard is a marine and you can't change that.

[Xilizhra]

This thread isn't going to turn out well...

They almost all turn out fantastically. Frequently antagonistic, of course, but that's one thing that makes such discussions interesting. And if it doesn't happen, well, that's good too.

[Sandy]

I've always found it odd that people want their characters to be atheist/agnostic in a fantasy game. The simple truth is that atheism wasn't really a thing in medieval societies. You believed in god(s), either out of tradition, culture, actual faith or any other reason. The gods were still in your life though, in your everyday life, whether you were a true believer or not. So if Hawke or our new DA3 protagonist says something like "Maker!" "Andraste watch over her in death", that doesn't mean that Hawke or the DA3 hero is a super-religious Andrastian... it simply means that he/she grew up in a culture where Andrastian beliefs are common and effect the everyday life. It's like a person today in our world saying "Oh my God!" or "Rest in peace" or "Godspeed". While the phrases have religious meaning to some, others use them simply as it is part of the culture.

So I am quite glad you can't go all "I don't believe in ANYTHING! - I'M A MODERN AND ADVANCED HUMAN BUT IN A FANTASY SETTING THAT KNOWS EVERYTHING AND CAN PROVE THERE IS NO MAKER!"

I find it much more interesting if the character's beliefs are that of the actual culture of whatever Thedas country they come from. Make them believe in the Maker, the Dalish gods, Ancestors/The Stone, but make it fit the character that we are given. We are going to be human in DA3, so yes, I find it very fitting that we are in fact Andrastian. If we believe out of tradition or out of actual faith is a whole other question. I'm not sure the two have to be mutually exclusive either.

So Atheism: no.

Apatheism on the other thand (believing that "if gods exist - so be it, I'm not changing my life one way or another because of it"), I can get behind that.

[Xilizhra]

I find it much more interesting if the character's beliefs are that of the actual culture of whatever Thedas country they come from. Make them believe in the Maker, the Dalish gods, Ancestors/The Stone, but make it fit the character that we are given. We are going to be human in DA3, so yes, I find it very fitting that we are in fact Andrastian. If we believe out of tradition or out of actual faith is a whole other question. I'm not sure the two have to be mutually exclusive either.

What about the Old Gods? I'd consider them far more interesting than Andraste.
Additionally, there were already options to express atheism in DAO, in addition to Morrigan's lines, so clearly disbelief in the Maker even for humans is a very real thing in Thedas. Just rare.

I also admit that I despise Andrastianism and want nothing whatsoever to do with honoring it in DA3.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 22 octobre 2012 - 01:53 .

[mousestalker]

Because they are wicked, wicked people? Is antheism even an option?

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I can imagine there are some people who have absolutely no interest in playing as a character who works for the Chantry. Some of us view the institution as a monstrous organization. 

How is that different than thinking than (as I do) that Duncan is a kidnapping SOB, or that the Warden's practices are obsence? DA:O is all just I <3 Warden's.

I also don't see why we can't have the same choices we did in Origins. Why should the protagonist be forced to worship the Maker? If the player plays as an apostate, why should the character be forced to believe in an anti-mage religion?

It's the same reason that the protagonist is forced to be a G&W in DA:O (i.e., Bioware wanted it). Even though there's no reason to do this.

As for your long think about what your elf did, every PC in DA:O can do that. My human mage did all of it. Including the condemin the Chantry for the Dales - that's not origin locked.

Hawke, on the other hand, never felt like my character, and I didn't have a choice when he told Feynriel (a person who worshipped the Creators) that he hoped the Maker guided him, and that he believed Leandra was with the Maker. I didn't like how the choices I had with my Warden were now removed from me, and I didn't think the changes were for the better.

And I told the Grand Cleric, LOL, chosen of the maker my ass when she talked about the Hero of Ferlden, and that's the only time my Troll!Hawke ever had to mention religion.

I found DA2 was quite conductive to my irreverent secularism, despite Leandra's Andrastian Faith.

[Han Shot First]

In Exile wrote...

But even if you did, there are lots of atheist players, and they would like to have atheist characters.

 

I don't understand that personally.

I always roleplay a character according to what their backstory or background is, rather than insert myself into that role.

For example I personally like the nation of Ferelden more than I do Orlais, but if we were given a Orlesian protagonist in a game set during Ferelden's rebellion against Orlais, I'd roleplay that character as a patriotic Orlesian and work against the people of Ferelden.

Likewise if a character is given a background that has them working for the Chantry, that character being a devout Andrastian makes more sense than the character being an atheist IMO, regardless of what the player's views on religion are.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote..
What about the Old Gods? I'd consider them far more interesting than Andraste.
Additionally, there were already options to express atheism in DAO, in addition to Morrigan's lines, so clearly disbelief in the Maker even for humans is a very real thing in Thedas. Just rare.

As DG explained, there's a difference (to Bioware) between having lines likes that we take as agnostic/atheistic and making sure an atheistic character is supported.

Bioware didn't think that an agnotisc/atheistic character was supported in DA:O, and the options came out organically (out of the options they gave you to answer in DA:O).

I found that a secular character was totally possible in DA2 - but I was always mixing/matching aggressive and trollface. Diplomatic Hawke messes this up - but that's not different on the design side from DA:O, other than the paraphrase failing.

I also admit that I despise Andrastianism and want nothing whatsoever to do with honoring it in DA3.

Man, thank god the Grey Wardens didn't convert to that after the 2nd (or was it 3rd?) blight en masse or anything! 'Cause it would sure suck to be forced to an order like that in DA:O, that openly reveres Andraste.

[Xilizhra]

How is that different than thinking than (as I do) that Duncan is a kidnapping SOB, or that the Warden's practices are obsence?

But you can do both. It'll lose approval with Alistair, but it's totally possible.

And I told the Grand Cleric, LOL, chosen of the maker my ass when she talked about the Hero of Ferlden, and that's the only time my Troll!Hawke ever had to mention religion.

I assume you didn't romance Merrill, then, as mine was led by the nose into saying that Leandra was with the Maker.

I don't understand that personally.

As I said, I utterly loathe Andrastianism and don't want the story to force me into that.

[The Hierophant]

In Exile wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Gathered from what i read of people's misgivings about being an inquisitor it's a combination of a dislike of the religion, playing a character they view as set, another human pc, feels that it limits the rp aspect of the game, and etc. for anything that's obscure or nonsensical.

Frankly, I can't see I <3 Andraste as being different from DA:O's forced I <3 Ferelden and/or I <3 the Grey Wardens, other than it seems that in this case most players on BSN actually don't <3 Andraste.

It depends on the beliefs, and neutrality of the organization the Inquisitor belongs to. If they're a chant of light spewing entity who's just the chantry with a new coat of paint then it's likely that the pc is set in their beliefs to varying degrees. The Grey Wardens are an organization who's only goal is to fight the darkspawn threat. The religious or sociopolitical beliefs differ among it's members as the organization is comprised of dwarven nobles, castless, Dalish, city elves, Justice(temporarily), human nobility/commoners, and mages.

I think it's mostly an issue of perceiving the pc to have set beliefs, and the lack of the ability to shape them due to the word Inquisition and the irl stigma it holds.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 22 octobre 2012 - 02:07 .

[Xilizhra]

As DG explained, there's a difference (to Bioware) between having lines likes that we take as agnostic/atheistic and making sure an atheistic character is supported.

Bioware didn't think that an agnotisc/atheistic character was supported in DA:O, and the options came out organically (out of the options they gave you to answer in DA:O).

I found that a secular character was totally possible in DA2 - but I was always mixing/matching aggressive and trollface. Diplomatic Hawke messes this up - but that's not different on the design side from DA:O, other than the paraphrase failing.

I do play diplomatic and found it obnoxious, but more tolerable than the non-battlecry lines. As for the rest, just inserting lines that are allowable to be interpreted that way is fine, assuming you're never at all forced to say anything religious.

Man, thank god the Grey Wardens didn't convert to that after the 2nd (or was it 3rd?) blight en masse or anything! 'Cause it would sure suck to be forced to an order like that in DA:O, that openly reveres Andraste.

The Grey Wardens don't try to enforce any individual Warden's beliefs.

[Terrorize69]

In Exile wrote...

But even if you did, there are lots of atheist players, and they would like to have atheist characters.

Though personally I don't get the objection to most of DA2, re: religious lines (e.g. Diplo-Hawke's battle cry), as an atheist myself.

I'm a atheist yet I have no issue at all with being "forced" to play a religious character, if I did I wouldn't buy the game in the first place.

While it's not being confirmed we play a Inquisitor, nor that we serve the Chantry. The title does give you a big hint/clue.

An Inquisition is 99% of the time organized by a religious faction. In DA there is only one religious faction humans follow (Note we are only playing humans also), that is the Chantry.

The Chantry is also neutural in the war and desires peace between the Mages and Templars, DA3 is highly unlikely going to force us to side with mages or Templars from the start, which means we represent a neutral faction, aka the Chantry.

Also it's been heavily hinted and suggested that Cass is one of our companions, shes loyal still to the Chantry and serves the Divine, its hinted shes a member of the Inquisition. Its unlikely that someone devoted to the Chantry still, after all the splits, will then walk of with the PC if they are not connected to the Chantry or the Inquisition.

Modifié par Terrorize69, 22 octobre 2012 - 02:07 .

[Aurora313]

I'm just amazing in-verse about the intolerance of atheism...

I know this is probably way off topic, but in the origin story, at least in the Human Noble, you can outright state that you don't believe in the whole 'Andrasta/Maker' thing, only to be heavily berated for doing so. There's also at Ostagar where you can refuse a blessing only to be called a heathen.

Having something like that bare a concequence on your character's interactions with the world.

It would actually be an interesting spin on the game if the character you play, or if a character that exists does have Antheist leanings, but serves the Chantry purely for their own selfish/ material reasons. IE - Monetary gain, paying off a debt.

Modifié par Aurora313, 22 octobre 2012 - 02:10 .