357 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...



It was already part of the lore for some people to believe there isn't a higher power. The Surana Warden could express that he didn't believe in the Maker, condemn the Chantry for marching on the Dales because the elves didn't convert to the Andrastian faith, inform Leliana that he believes Andraste was only a woman and not a divine person, and inform Justice that faith in the Maker is a "foolish superstition."

It's isn't part of the lore. The Warden is the PC, which is different from the NPC in Thedas, and in the codex (the only info in-game which could be considered for the lore) in both games his or her beliefs aren't expressed.
Mind you, I'm not saying that there aren't atheist in Thedas, but that the PC shouldn't be counted. as "some people" in the lore.

Do any codex entries say that there are no atheists in Thedas at all? With the lack of that, combined with the PC's ability to speak, plus Morrigan, we can conclude that some possibilities for it exist in the world.

I never said the contrary. Only that the PC's presence shouldn't be counted to say for certain that other atheists exist in the world.

[LobselVith8]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Again, those are great things to bring up to Mr. Gaider (perhaps our modern-day creeping crept into the writing unintended, the same way it did with the supposed Thedas "gender equality").

I don't think I'm the one to bring it up to Mr. Gaider. You may have noticed that he doesn't seem to like me very much.

brushyourteeth wrote...

But as it is, you're eventually going to have to get to a place where you can accept that the lore probably just won't be what you want it to be on this matter. We've all got our peeves - I understand that this one bothers you a lot. The protagonist will get the chance to be a skeptic, but if you're hoping for more than that you're likely just going to be disappointed.

The problem is Gaider acts as though Hawke wasn't written to be religiously Andrastian, when Hawke explicitly says Leandra is with the Maker, and tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him, even though Feynriel is a firm believer in the Creators.

brushyourteeth wrote...

... not because I want you to be (please understand that) - that's just not the world that David Gaider has said he intends to write.

If that's the direction Dragon Age is headed in, I think it's to the detriment of the fans who want choices in shaping their protagonist, not restrictions imposed on them because of the bias of some of the developers.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...



The protagonist is part of the world of Thedas. His existance is mentioned in the codex entry in Dragon Age II; The Warden is literally part of the lore that Hawke can read about. Also, Gaider already conceded that it was previously avaliable in Origins:

David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Probably because they could say things like "I've told you before I don't believe in the Maker" in the HN origin 

If that was in there, then so be it. There wasn't intended to be an option to express atheism. And there certainly won't be again. 

His existence is mentioned in the codex, his belief not. His belief shouldn't be considered as part of the lore.
And I'm not saying that the Warden couldn't express atheist views in Origins, since I used them everytime with elves and dwarves, sometime with humans. I said that PC atheist =  there areother people are atheists in Thedas isn't right. Morrigan's belief are more a proof about atheism being present in Thedas, in my opinion.

[Xilizhra]

I'm speaking to LobselVith8, who seems to still be upset that atheism isn't "a thing" in Thedas.

Not yet. Except among the qunari. But perhaps that depends on what our Inquisitor can do...

[brushyourteeth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Again, those are great things to bring up to Mr. Gaider (perhaps our modern-day creeping crept into the writing unintended, the same way it did with the supposed Thedas "gender equality").

I don't think I'm the one to bring it up to Mr. Gaider. You may have noticed that he doesn't seem to like me very much.

I'm pretty sure his "good book" contains few entries nowadays.  If that's true, don't let it bother you.

brushyourteeth wrote...

But as it is, you're eventually going to have to get to a place where you can accept that the lore probably just won't be what you want it to be on this matter. We've all got our peeves - I understand that this one bothers you a lot. The protagonist will get the chance to be a skeptic, but if you're hoping for more than that you're likely just going to be disappointed.

The problem is Gaider acts as though Hawke wasn't written to be religiously Andrastian, when Hawke explicitly says Leandra is with the Maker, and tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him, even though Feynriel is a firm believer in the Creators.

Has he denied that? I guess I'd argue that Hawke's obviously influenced by an Andrastian society, but s/he could have simply meant those things the way most people mean them when they say "God bless you" after you've sneezed.

brushyourteeth wrote...

... not because I want you to be (please understand that) - that's just not the world that David Gaider has said he intends to write.

If that's the direction Dragon Age is headed in, I think it's to the detriment of the fans who want choices in shaping their protagonist, not restrictions imposed on them because of the bias of some of the developers.

He's already said he'll see to it that the protagonist has that restriction lifted - but control over the character isn't the same as control over the world, which is something we've no right to. And I think it's very unfair to chalk it up to "developer bias" - as if it's David Gaider's mission in life to convert all Dragon Age fans to some kind of religion. He's a writer, who's created this world where he's decided for the sake of the overall story (which we've only had morsels of) it makes sense that people are influenced by their worship of a deity. That doesn't make him a tyrant. That makes those of us who can't handle it kind of immature.

There's a sense in which this is *your* game and *your character* - D-Gaids is fixing that because he respects player choice.

There's another sense in which this is *his* world and *his* baby. We can't expect him to do rewrites for our every whim, especially since there are other players who appreciate things the way they are. Content yourself in the fact that real life accepts atheism as valid, your protagonist will get to express that, and realize that this is a work of fantasy and not an attack on your own personal real-life opinions.

After all, Dragon Age doesn't represent my religious views in any way either.

[Xilizhra]

Has he denied that? I guess I'd argue that Hawke's obviously influenced by an Andrastian society, but s/he could have simply meant those things the way most people mean them when they say "God bless you" after you've sneezed.

It doesn't come across that way at all, if you haven't seen the line.

He's already said he'll see to it that the protagonist has that restriction lifted - but control over the character isn't the same as control over the world, which is something we've no right to. And I think it's very unfair to chalk it up to "developer bias" - as if it's David Gaider's mission in life to convert all Dragon Age fans to some kind of religion. He's a writer, who's created this world where he's decided for the sake of the overall story (which we've only had morsels of) it makes sense that people are influenced by their worship of a deity. That doesn't make him a tyrant. That makes those of us who can't handle it kind of immature.

It can, however, make the world come across as smaller and less interesting. And if we believe that and wish to give that feedback, then we should do so.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

Has he denied that? I guess I'd argue that Hawke's obviously influenced by an Andrastian society, but s/he could have simply meant those things the way most people mean them when they say "God bless you" after you've sneezed.

It doesn't come across that way at all, if you haven't seen the line.

I'm actually playing through again now -- I'll pay closer attention this time. 

He's already said he'll see to it that the protagonist has that restriction lifted - but control over the character isn't the same as control over the world, which is something we've no right to. And I think it's very unfair to chalk it up to "developer bias" - as if it's David Gaider's mission in life to convert all Dragon Age fans to some kind of religion. He's a writer, who's created this world where he's decided for the sake of the overall story (which we've only had morsels of) it makes sense that people are influenced by their worship of a deity. That doesn't make him a tyrant. That makes those of us who can't handle it kind of immature.

It can, however, make the world come across as smaller and less interesting. And if we believe that and wish to give that feedback, then we should do so.

*shrugs* if so, then there are whole ages of human history that are small and uninteresting. Since DA's obviously got us hooked, I think the writers can make it work.

[Xilizhra]

*shrugs* if so, then there are whole ages of human history that are small and uninteresting. Since DA's obviously got us hooked, I think the writers can make it work.

At no time in history, ever, has humanity as a whole ever been restricted to one or two religions.

[LobselVith8]

brushyourteeth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The problem is Gaider acts as though Hawke wasn't written to be religiously Andrastian, when Hawke explicitly says Leandra is with the Maker, and tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him, even though Feynriel is a firm believer in the Creators. 

Has he denied that? I guess I'd argue that Hawke's obviously influenced by an Andrastian society, but s/he could have simply meant those things the way most people mean them when they say "God bless you" after you've sneezed. 

I think Hawke telling Merrill that Leandra is with the Maker is different than saying "God bless you."

brushyourteeth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If that's the direction Dragon Age is headed in, I think it's to the detriment of the fans who want choices in shaping their protagonist, not restrictions imposed on them because of the bias of some of the developers.

He's already said he'll see to it that the protagonist has that restriction lifted - but control over the character isn't the same as control over the world, which is something we've no right to. And I think it's very unfair to chalk it up to "developer bias" - as if it's David Gaider's mission in life to convert all Dragon Age fans to some kind of religion. He's a writer, who's created this world where he's decided for the sake of the overall story (which we've only had morsels of) it makes sense that people are influenced by their worship of a deity. That doesn't make him a tyrant. That makes those of us who can't handle it kind of immature.

There's a sense in which this is *your* game and *your character* - D-Gaids is fixing that because he respects player choice.

There's another sense in which this is *his* world and *his* baby. We can't expect him to do rewrites for our every whim, especially since there are other players who appreciate things the way they are. Content yourself in the fact that real life accepts atheism as valid, your protagonist will get to express that, and realize that this is a work of fantasy and not an attack on your own personal real-life opinions.

After all, Dragon Age doesn't represent my religious views in any way either.

I was thinking more along the lines of Gaider thinking that because players wanted the return of the atheist option for their protagonists, that it meant they had the desire to destroy all religion.

[David Gaider]

Xilizhra wrote...
And he's changed his mind.

Indeed. My original comment on the "Oh God" thing was with regards to the Maker-related combat bark that I've seen get mentioned, which I don't even particularly care about. Insofar as the comment regarding Merrill and the player's mother, that I can see. It's something we can certainly watch for, but not something I would panic over. If that's all it takes for people to declare that Hawke is a devout Andrastian, then what I said earlier still holds-- there will be something that people will no doubt similarly read into and interpret to mean they are having religion "forced down their throats". We'll watch for it even so.

[Leoroc]

Thank you whoever changed the spelling error in the title. Was annoying me =p

[Xilizhra]

David Gaider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
And he's changed his mind.

Indeed. My original comment on the "Oh God" thing was with regards to the Maker-related combat bark that I've seen get mentioned, which I don't even particularly care about. Insofar as the comment regarding Merrill and the player's mother, that I can see. It's something we can certainly watch for, but not something I would panic over. If that's all it takes for people to declare that Hawke is a devout Andrastian, then what I said earlier still holds-- there will be something that people will no doubt similarly read into and interpret to mean they are having religion "forced down their throats". We'll watch for it even so.

How are you defining "devout?" We may be using different definitions.

[upsettingshorts]

David Gaider wrote...

If that's all it takes for people to declare that Hawke is a devout Andrastian, then what I said earlier still holds-- there will be something that people will no doubt similarly read into and interpret to mean they are having religion "forced down their throats".

I know it's poor form to make edits to posts for content, but I think I know what you mean:

"If that's all it takes for Lobselvith8 to declare that Hawke is a devout Andrastian, then what I said earlier still holds-- there will be something that Lobselvith8 will no doubt similarly read into and interpret to mean he is having religion "forced down his throat"."

Then that interpretation will spread, as memes tend to do, around the whole forum until you have posters who aren't even aware of the original context of the discussion claiming in other threads that they heard it was confirmed that DA:3's protagonist will be a debout Andrastian!

Xilizhra wrote...

How are you defining "devout?" We may be using different definitions.

Devout means total commitment and dedication (to a belief).  A comment here or there does not "devout" make, no matter how many times people claim it does.

I'll use it in a sentence:  "Lobselvith8 is a devout believer in mage liberation in Dragon Age."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:58 .

[LadyVaJedi]

I would like for us to decide on how religious our pc is. I am a Wiccan and I just don't like the fact that there is only one religion. And if we are to play an Inquisitor I would like to be able to have the freedom to play it as a spiritualist/ neo-pagan/ or as an agnostic.

[brushyourteeth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If that's the direction Dragon Age is headed in, I think it's to the detriment of the fans who want choices in shaping their protagonist, not restrictions imposed on them because of the bias of some of the developers.

He's already said he'll see to it that the protagonist has that restriction lifted - but control over the character isn't the same as control over the world, which is something we've no right to. And I think it's very unfair to chalk it up to "developer bias" - as if it's David Gaider's mission in life to convert all Dragon Age fans to some kind of religion. He's a writer, who's created this world where he's decided for the sake of the overall story (which we've only had morsels of) it makes sense that people are influenced by their worship of a deity. That doesn't make him a tyrant. That makes those of us who can't handle it kind of immature.

There's a sense in which this is *your* game and *your character* - D-Gaids is fixing that because he respects player choice.

There's another sense in which this is *his* world and *his* baby. We can't expect him to do rewrites for our every whim, especially since there are other players who appreciate things the way they are. Content yourself in the fact that real life accepts atheism as valid, your protagonist will get to express that, and realize that this is a work of fantasy and not an attack on your own personal real-life opinions.

After all, Dragon Age doesn't represent my religious views in any way either.

I was thinking more along the lines of Gaider thinking that because players wanted the return of the atheist option for their protagonists, that it meant they had the desire to destroy all religion.

I can't speak for Mr. Gaider, but I think there's some truth to that. Let's be honest - for some forumites, that is what it's about. There's an awful lot of religion hate on the forums, and it leads to a lot of irrational requests. You do get the sense after reading so many of those posts that people are looking for Dragon Age to validate their real-life opinions. As if that would be some kind of triumph, or lend some measure of weight to their religious views.

Some people would just appreciate having a non-Chantry way to roleplay (especially since humans probably won't have the option to worship the Creators or the Paragons). I'd count myself among those, but within reason.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:59 .

[Xilizhra]

Devout means total commitment and dedication (to a belief). A comment here or there does not "devout" make, no matter how many times people claim it does.

Then allow me to clarify: my stance was never about not wanting to be devout. I already knew we wouldn't be forced into that. I don't want to possess any sort of worship of the Maker in my mindset at all, regardless of devoutness level.

I can't speak for Mr. Gaider, but I think there's some truth to that. Let's be honest - for some forumites, that is what it's about. There's an awful lot of religion hate on the forums, and it leads to a lot of irrational requests. You do get the sense after reading so many of those posts that people are looking for Dragon Age to validate their real-life opinions. As if that would be some kind of triumph, or lend some measure of weight to their religious views.

Trust me, my hatred for the Chantry is entirely for in-game reasons.

Some people would just appreciate having a non-Chantry way to roleplay (especially since humans probably won't have the option to worship the Creators or the Paragons). I'd count myself among those, but within reason.

What is this "reason?"

[LobselVith8]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

If that's all it takes for people to declare that Hawke is a devout Andrastian, then what I said earlier still holds-- there will be something that people will no doubt similarly read into and interpret to mean they are having religion "forced down their throats".

I know it's poor form to make edits to posts for content, but I think I know what you mean:

"If that's all it takes for Lobselvith8 to declare that Hawke is a devout Andrastian, then what I said earlier still holds-- there will be something that Lobselvith8 will no doubt similarly read into and interpret to mean he is having religion "forced down his throat"."

I don't believe I used the word 'devout.' I pointed out Hawke is "religiously Andrastian." When Hawke tells Merrill that his deceased mother is with the Maker, or tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him, it doesn't give me any option to have Hawke say something that provides a different view for the protagonist. Hawke is, essenially, forced to be religiously Andrastian, because the player isn't given the option to express a different point of view for their respective protagonist (i.e. atheism).

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Then that interpretation will spread, as memes tend to do, around the whole forum until you have posters who aren't even aware of the original context of the discussion claiming in other threads that they heard it was confirmed that DA:3's protagonist will be a debout Andrastian!

People like Xil and Ian have seen the same scene with Hawke and Merrill, and Hawke and Feynriel, and commented on it. I'm not the only one who has played Dragon Age II. I'm certainly not the only one who feels Hawke is religiously Andrastian.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How are you defining "devout?" We may be using different definitions. 

Devout means total commitment and dedication (to a belief).  A comment here or there does not "devout" make, no matter how many times people claim it does.

I'll use it in a sentence:  "Lobselvith8 is a devout believer in mage liberation in Dragon Age." 

Which doesn't change my original statement about Hawke being religiously Andrastian. I don't know why the protagonist has to believe in the Maker. I think it would have been better if I had a choice in the matter, rather than having the decision imposed on Hawke.

[PsychoBlonde]

David Gaider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
And he's changed his mind.

Indeed. My original comment on the "Oh God" thing was with regards to the Maker-related combat bark that I've seen get mentioned, which I don't even particularly care about. Insofar as the comment regarding Merrill and the player's mother, that I can see. It's something we can certainly watch for, but not something I would panic over. If that's all it takes for people to declare that Hawke is a devout Andrastian, then what I said earlier still holds-- there will be something that people will no doubt similarly read into and interpret to mean they are having religion "forced down their throats". We'll watch for it even so.

It's been my experience that the a-religious or anti-religious are actually much MORE likely to blaspheme (sometimes in great detail), whereas if you say "goddammit!" in front of a religious person they'll probably ask you to stop.

If someone's going around swearing by Andraste's flaming knickers, you can be pretty sure they don't take her all that seriously.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

Some people would just appreciate having a non-Chantry way to roleplay (especially since humans probably won't have the option to worship the Creators or the Paragons). I'd count myself among those, but within reason.

What is this "reason?"

More options for the sake of RP and replayability are better. But I like to think I wouldn't ask the writer of a series I love to change the lore simply because I couldn't possibly conceive of putting myself in a religious person's shoes. For you, the problem might only be the Chantry. For some, the idea of religion in general is so distasteful that they claim to rather never play the game than be asked to pretend to relate to it.

Where I come from, that's called intolerance. The same as if I said I wouldn't play a game with a minority protagonist.

[Xilizhra]

More options for the sake of RP and replayability are better. But I like to think I wouldn't ask the writer of a series I love to change the lore simply because I couldn't possibly conceive of putting myself in a religious person's shoes. For you, the problem might only be the Chantry. For some, the idea of religion in general is so distasteful that they claim to rather never play the game than be asked to pretend to relate to it.

Given my doubts that we'll interact with the Dalish or dwarves much in this game, and given that we've never really been able to be sympathetic to the Qun, I don't see how myself and this hypothetical other would do anything different, in our shared actions against the Chantry with other religions likely not appearing.

[LobselVith8]

brushyourteeth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I was thinking more along the lines of Gaider thinking that because players wanted the return of the atheist option for their protagonists, that it meant they had the desire to destroy all religion.

I can't speak for Mr. Gaider, but I think there's some truth to that. Let's be honest - for some forumites, that is what it's about. There's an awful lot of religion hate on the forums, and it leads to a lot of irrational requests. You do get the sense after reading so many of those posts that people are looking for Dragon Age to validate their real-life opinions. As if that would be some kind of triumph, or lend some measure of weight to their religious views.

I don't think many people hate religion in general. I know some do, but they don't speak for everyone. There are a number of people who hate the Chantry of Andraste for very specific reasons (regarding the elves and the mages for the most part), but I don't think it's fair to group every single one of them with people who hate religion. I don't think it's accurate or fair to them. I certainly enjoy playing as my Dunmer mage who believes in the Tribunal, or my Dunmer assassin who follows Sithis. I'd love to play as a Dalish mage who follows the Creators. However, I don't see why my mage protagonist should have to follow a religion that condemns his people. Why should an apostate Hawke have to believe in the Maker?

brushyourteeth wrote...

Some people would just appreciate having a non-Chantry way to roleplay (especially since humans probably won't have the option to worship the Creators or the Paragons). I'd count myself among those, but within reason.

If it's true that the protagonist is going to Orlais and Tevinter, it's a shame that the racial options aren't avaliable. I think a Dalish protagonist would have been an interesting choice as a character to play as, visiting those places.

[brushyourteeth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I was thinking more along the lines of Gaider thinking that because players wanted the return of the atheist option for their protagonists, that it meant they had the desire to destroy all religion.

I can't speak for Mr. Gaider, but I think there's some truth to that. Let's be honest - for some forumites, that is what it's about. There's an awful lot of religion hate on the forums, and it leads to a lot of irrational requests. You do get the sense after reading so many of those posts that people are looking for Dragon Age to validate their real-life opinions. As if that would be some kind of triumph, or lend some measure of weight to their religious views.

I don't think many people hate religion in general. I know some do, but they don't speak for everyone. There are a number of people who hate the Chantry of Andraste for very specific reasons (regarding the elves and the mages for the most part), but I don't think it's fair to group every single one of them with people who hate religion. I don't think it's accurate or fair to them. I certainly enjoy playing as my Dunmer mage who believes in the Tribunal, or my Dunmer assassin who follows Sithis. I'd love to play as a Dalish mage who follows the Creators. However, I don't see why my mage protagonist should have to follow a religion that condemns his people. Why should an apostate Hawke have to believe in the Maker?

Well, when I said some, I honestly meant it.

[Karlone123]

Expressing doubt about what the Makerdoes is enough for me. but not believing in a deity is kind of out of place in a merdieval fantasy, especially if the protaganist was brought up iaround other people who believe in the Maker.

[Travie]

For me its about an entire direction for my character.

A worldly rogue who has seen enough to believe that there isn't any maker and isn't afraid to express that is just as fun to play as a devout zelot who has lived under the church their whole life.

I'm on my 8th (still having a blast) playthrough of DA:O and many of those playthroughs I can remember quite fondly, because even though the content is the same, the game still let me define myself and roleplay that personality.

[NedPepper]

Xilizhra wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...



It was already part of the lore for some people to believe there isn't a higher power. The Surana Warden could express that he didn't believe in the Maker, condemn the Chantry for marching on the Dales because the elves didn't convert to the Andrastian faith, inform Leliana that he believes Andraste was only a woman and not a divine person, and inform Justice that faith in the Maker is a "foolish superstition."

It's isn't part of the lore. The Warden is the PC, which is different from the NPC in Thedas, and in the codex (the only info in-game which could be considered for the lore) in both games his or her beliefs aren't expressed.
Mind you, I'm not saying that there aren't atheist in Thedas, but that the PC shouldn't be counted. as "some people" in the lore.

Do any codex entries say that there are no atheists in Thedas at all? With the lack of that, combined with the PC's ability to speak, plus Morrigan, we can conclude that some possibilities for it exist in the world.

Well, let's look at Morrigan:

Raised in the wilds by Flemeth, a known manipulator, away from culture.  Chantry dominates Thedas.  This is like the middle ages.  How many atheists were running around in the middle ages?  And if they did, it would be "BURN THE WITCH!"

She also wanted an old god baby inside of her.  It was always her intention.  Morrigan lies.

Morrigan also challenges everyone's perspective.  She's contrary.  It's part of her character. 

Morrigan is not typical of the people of Thedas.