357 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Raised in the wilds by Flemeth, a known manipulator, away from culture. Chantry dominates Thedas. This is like the middle ages. How many atheists were running around in the middle ages? And if they did, it would be "BURN THE WITCH!"

Hah. I'd wish luck to anyone who wants to try burning the Inquisitor, even though the image is kind of hilarious.

[NedPepper]

And what happens when the Maker or Fen'Harel appear in the game? Because foreshadowing seems to point to that. Expressing doubt is one thing. Going around in every conversation and saying that gods are ridiculous...well, if it doesn't jibe with the story, is it really worth dedicating that much time to a certain MODERN ideal?

I am an atheist, but I don't need all of my character traits to role play a character in a fantasy world.

[Zardoc]

In Exile wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Gathered from what i read of people's misgivings about being an inquisitor it's a combination of a dislike of the religion, playing a character they view as set, another human pc, feels that it limits the rp aspect of the game, and etc. for anything that's obscure or nonsensical.

Frankly, I can't see I <3 Andraste as being different from DA:O's forced I <3 Ferelden and/or I <3 the Grey Wardens, other than it seems that in this case most players on BSN actually don't <3 Andraste.

You're joking, right?

[SeptimusMagistos]

nedpepper wrote...

How many atheists were running around in the middle ages? 

Some. Not many, but some.

[NedPepper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Again, those are great things to bring up to Mr. Gaider (perhaps our modern-day creeping crept into the writing unintended, the same way it did with the supposed Thedas "gender equality").

I don't think I'm the one to bring it up to Mr. Gaider. You may have noticed that he doesn't seem to like me very much.

brushyourteeth wrote...

But as it is, you're eventually going to have to get to a place where you can accept that the lore probably just won't be what you want it to be on this matter. We've all got our peeves - I understand that this one bothers you a lot. The protagonist will get the chance to be a skeptic, but if you're hoping for more than that you're likely just going to be disappointed.

The problem is Gaider acts as though Hawke wasn't written to be religiously Andrastian, when Hawke explicitly says Leandra is with the Maker, and tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him, even though Feynriel is a firm believer in the Creators.

brushyourteeth wrote...

... not because I want you to be (please understand that) - that's just not the world that David Gaider has said he intends to write.

If that's the direction Dragon Age is headed in, I think it's to the detriment of the fans who want choices in shaping their protagonist, not restrictions imposed on them because of the bias of some of the developers.

How is Hawke Andrastian?  Outside of using common phrases like "Maker help us" which could just come across as colloquial phrase like "Jesus Christ, you stink! " Or OH MY GOD, did you see that?"

My Hawke was asked if he wanted a blessing from Elthina.  He told her she was worthless.  I'm not sure where you're drawing this conclusion.

[Xilizhra]

How is Hawke Andrastian? Outside of using common phrases like "Maker help us" which could just come across as colloquial phrase like "Jesus Christ, you stink! " Or OH MY GOD, did you see that?"

It involves romancing Merrill. Did you do so?

[Sejborg]

Why would I want to serve the chantry in the first place?

[Zardoc]

Sejborg wrote...

Why would I want to serve the chantry in the first place?

Maybe there are people who hate thinking for themselves and love slaughtering people for having different believes. You never know.

[NedPepper]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

How many atheists were running around in the middle ages? 

Some. Not many, but some.

Probably some.  But I doubt they very vocal about it.  Again, the whole, people would kill them for saying it.  And, faith was just PART of that age.  It wasn't the most enlightened era.

[NedPepper]

Xilizhra wrote...

How is Hawke Andrastian? Outside of using common phrases like "Maker help us" which could just come across as colloquial phrase like "Jesus Christ, you stink! " Or OH MY GOD, did you see that?"

It involves romancing Merrill. Did you do so?

Yes, on one of my playthroughs.  But whatever was said wasn't enough to get my hackles up.  Obvioiusly, since I don't remember.  Then again, that may have been my playthrough where I WAS playing an devout Andrastian.  I think he was a mage, actually.

Then again, I don't roleplay with my values every time I play the game.  Part of the fun of role playing is creating characters reflective of the world we're playing in.  At least, for me.

[NedPepper]

Sejborg wrote...

Why would I want to serve the chantry in the first place?

Dorethea leads the Chantry.  She's devout, yes, but she's also progressive.  Read the codex.  She sides with mages.  She wants change.  She wants to work with the mages and does.  The Templar order and the Seeker order are splintering from The Chantry BECAUSE of her progressiveness.  You essentially have schism in The Chantry.  You also have a schism with the mages.

So, even if you ARE forced to work for her, how is any different than being forced to work for the Grey Wardens? You can hate her if you want.  But I imagine there's more to you being the Inquisitor than your faith.  It's probably like in Asunder.  The Chantry is reaching out to find people to solve a problem that could destroy all of Thedas.  We don't know how our PC will be recruited, but I really doubt it's going to be that you are some kind of initiate in the Chantry.  

Again, Asunder shows this all very well.  I could be wrong.  I only have the info you guys have.  But my intuition says I'm probably right.

[Peer of the Empire]

To paraphrase:

The commoner thinks this is to placate ghosts, but the gentleman knows it is to teach and reinforce correct behavior

[LobselVith8]

nedpepper wrote...

And what happens when the Maker or Fen'Harel appear in the game? Because foreshadowing seems to point to that. Expressing doubt is one thing. Going around in every conversation and saying that gods are ridiculous...well, if it doesn't jibe with the story, is it really worth dedicating that much time to a certain MODERN ideal?

I am an atheist, but I don't need all of my character traits to role play a character in a fantasy world.

What does the protagonist being atheist in Thedas have to do with the player's own views? The Andrastian Chantry is a fictional religion; it isn't real. When I played my Surana Warden as an atheist who told Leliana that Andraste wasn't divine and informed Justice that he didn't believe in the Maker, it was part of who my character was. It's inaccurate to think that people who want choices in crafting their protagonist - including the option for their character to be atheist - have the same views in the real world.

nedpepper wrote...

How is Hawke Andrastian?  Outside of using common phrases like "Maker help us" which could just come across as colloquial phrase like "Jesus Christ, you stink! " Or OH MY GOD, did you see that?"

It's clear Hawke is written to be religiously Andrastian when Hawke tells Feynriel (who believes in the Creators) that he hopes the Maker guides him, and when he tells Merrill that his deceased mother is with the Maker.

nedpepper wrote...

My Hawke was asked if he wanted a blessing from Elthina.  He told her she was worthless.  I'm not sure where you're drawing this conclusion.

Choosing the dialogue option, "You're useless," leads to Hawke belligerently screaming, "Get out of my way!" The paraphrasing in Dragon Age II was horrible.

[EmperorSahlertz]

nedpepper wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

How many atheists were running around in the middle ages? 

Some. Not many, but some.

Probably some.  But I doubt they very vocal about it.  Again, the whole, people would kill them for saying it.  And, faith was just PART of that age.  It wasn't the most enlightened era.

People hardly cared about aetheists in the dark ages. As believers saw it, the aetheist only condemned themselves to whatever hell the believers believed in. It was the heathen and heretics that was the cause of much ire back then.

[LobselVith8]

nedpepper wrote...

Yes, on one of my playthroughs.  But whatever was said wasn't enough to get my hackles up.  Obvioiusly, since I don't remember.  Then again, that may have been my playthrough where I WAS playing an devout Andrastian.  I think he was a mage, actually.

Then again, I don't roleplay with my values every time I play the game.  Part of the fun of role playing is creating characters reflective of the world we're playing in.  At least, for me.

Actually, I try to create different characters in RPGs. In Skyrim, my Dunmer assassin has different values than my Tribunal mage. My assassin made deals with the Daedric Princes, became a member of the Dark Brotherhood, sided with the Stormcloaks, and killed Madanach. My Tribunal mage made entirely different choices. They aren't the same person; they are different people.

My Surana Warden was compassionate towards people in need, but he was pragmatic about the threat posed by the darkspawn. I tried to make apostate Hawke different than my Warden - in respect to their personalities, and how they reacted with their companions. For example, my Warden would have rivaled Aveline and Isabela to make them into stronger and better people (like he did with Alistair and Leliana), while Hawke accepted them as they were; my Warden's alliance with the progressive Bhelen would have lead him into executing Renvil Harrowmont, while Hawke defended him against the carta.

The issue is the Andrastian Chantry. My Surana Warden didn't believe in the mythology of the Chantry or the Maker for a number of reasons, including his elven heritage and his status as a mage. I don't see why apostate Hawke has to believe in an anti-mage religion. Why shouldn't I have a choice in what Hawke believed, when I was given the freedom to determine what my Surana Warden believed in? I dislike that Hawke's religious views were imposed by the developers, rather than chosen by me.

[Medhia Nox]

LOL The religion isn't Anti-Mage - in the Chant - magic is called "The Gift of the Maker"

You're (LobselVith8) doing exactly what real life oppressed people do with religion - confusing the people who hate you with the religion.

[NedPepper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

And what happens when the Maker or Fen'Harel appear in the game? Because foreshadowing seems to point to that. Expressing doubt is one thing. Going around in every conversation and saying that gods are ridiculous...well, if it doesn't jibe with the story, is it really worth dedicating that much time to a certain MODERN ideal?

I am an atheist, but I don't need all of my character traits to role play a character in a fantasy world.

What does the protagonist being atheist in Thedas have to do with the player's own views? The Andrastian Chantry is a fictional religion; it isn't real. When I played my Surana Warden as an atheist who told Leliana that Andraste wasn't divine and informed Justice that he didn't believe in the Maker, it was part of who my character was. It's inaccurate to think that people who want choices in crafting their protagonist - including the option for their character to be atheist - have the same views in the real world.

nedpepper wrote...

How is Hawke Andrastian?  Outside of using common phrases like "Maker help us" which could just come across as colloquial phrase like "Jesus Christ, you stink! " Or OH MY GOD, did you see that?"

It's clear Hawke is written to be religiously Andrastian when Hawke tells Feynriel (who believes in the Creators) that he hopes the Maker guides him, and when he tells Merrill that his deceased mother is with the Maker.

nedpepper wrote...

My Hawke was asked if he wanted a blessing from Elthina.  He told her she was worthless.  I'm not sure where you're drawing this conclusion.

Choosing the dialogue option, "You're useless," leads to Hawke belligerently screaming, "Get out of my way!" The paraphrasing in Dragon Age II was horrible.

I'm aware it's not real.  But it's the dominant cultural ruler of Southern Thedas.  Again, Hawke using those phrases were more colloquial than anything else.  I played the same game you did and I never felt that I was being forced to play an Andrastian.  Sebastian is a devout Andrastian. I busted his balls every chance I could. 

But I DO think your own views are coloring the game.  Look at any "Keep Leliana DEAD!" thread.  She's the annoying religious lady.  People like KILILNG HER simply for that one aspect of her character.  Perhaps Hawke was raised in the culture, but that doesn't mean he/she becomes devout.  And I don't buy that you can't roleplay Hawke as at least an agnostic.

I think you're splitting hairs here.  You're making a lot out of very little. 

And bad paraphrasing or not, I took it that Hawke didn't have to like Elthina or buy into her dogma.  Hell, you can help Anders blow up the Chantry.  And only get mad because he lied to you.  You can tell him that you would have helped him.  And strangely enough, Anders uses phrases like "By the Maker!" as well.  He is a devout Andrastian? Or does he just hates the Chantry?  It's left vague, so I'm not sure how you can draw such black and white conclusions.

[NedPepper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Yes, on one of my playthroughs.  But whatever was said wasn't enough to get my hackles up.  Obvioiusly, since I don't remember.  Then again, that may have been my playthrough where I WAS playing an devout Andrastian.  I think he was a mage, actually.

Then again, I don't roleplay with my values every time I play the game.  Part of the fun of role playing is creating characters reflective of the world we're playing in.  At least, for me.

Actually, I try to create different characters in RPGs. In Skyrim, my Dunmer assassin has different values than my Tribunal mage. My assassin made deals with the Daedric Princes, became a member of the Dark Brotherhood, sided with the Stormcloaks, and killed Madanach. My Tribunal mage made entirely different choices. They aren't the same person; they are different people.

My Surana Warden was compassionate towards people in need, but he was pragmatic about the threat posed by the darkspawn. I tried to make apostate Hawke different than my Warden - in respect to their personalities, and how they reacted with their companions. For example, my Warden would have rivaled Aveline and Isabela to make them into stronger and better people (like he did with Alistair and Leliana), while Hawke accepted them as they were; my Warden's alliance with the progressive Bhelen would have lead him into executing Renvil Harrowmont, while Hawke defended him against the carta.

The issue is the Andrastian Chantry. My Surana Warden didn't believe in the mythology of the Chantry or the Maker for a number of reasons, including his elven heritage and his status as a mage. I don't see why apostate Hawke has to believe in an anti-mage religion. Why shouldn't I have a choice in what Hawke believed, when I was given the freedom to determine what my Surana Warden believed in? I dislike that Hawke's religious views were imposed by the developers, rather than chosen by me.

Okay, but you had no problem following the Dalish religion.  If Hawke had been Dalish and kept saying "By the Creators!", would you have still been bothered?  I'm just curious. And this is where playing as human is different than playing as a elf. The cultures are extremely different.  If you want humans to be able to worship the Creators as a choice, hey I'm down with that.  I'm down with having the PC expressing doubt.  I just don't think it's something that becomes as prominent as you believe it needs to be.

And there is such a thing called head canon.  Everything you percieve in your PC is not always going to be reflected in a videogame, and that comes merely from practical development issues.  There's a plot, for one.  There's a narrative.  And there are limitations, mainly from a monetary standpoint.  Every little thing you want reflected, or anyone wants reflected, just can't be accomadated.  It's not table top, free range.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

LOL The religion isn't Anti-Mage - in the Chant - magic is called "The Gift of the Maker"

While Andrastians like Knight-Commander Greagoir, Keili, Bethany, and Meredith refer to it as a "curse" because that is what the Chantry preaches about magic and mages. We know from Wynne that Andrastians kill mages if things go bad in their society - like a drought destroying crops, or a baby dying. We have Mother Hannah assuring an Amell Warden that a mob won't attempt to kill him. All things considered, the Andrastian Chantry comes across as anti-mage to me. You're welcome to your own opinion on the Chantry of Andraste, of course.

Medhia Nox wrote...

You're (LobselVith8) doing exactly what real life oppressed people do with religion - confusing the people who hate you with the religion.

I have an opinion that differs from yours, which is no different than our debates about the Chantry controlled Circles. I'm addressing my view on the religious institution that used the name of the Maker to control mages across the continent.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

LOL The religion isn't Anti-Mage - in the Chant - magic is called "The Gift of the Maker"

While Andrastians like Knight-Commander Greagoir, Keili, Bethany, and Meredith refer to it as a "curse" because that is what the Chantry preaches about magic and mages. We know from Wynne that Andrastians kill mages if things go bad in their society - like a drought destroying crops, or a baby dying. We have Mother Hannah assuring an Amell Warden that a mob won't attempt to kill him. All things considered, the Andrastian Chantry comes across as anti-mage to me. You're welcome to your own opinion on the Chantry of Andraste, of course.

Uh, Gregoire says it is a gift and a curse.  It is a curse because of the demons and what not. 

[LobselVith8]

nedpepper wrote...

Dorethea leads the Chantry.  She's devout, yes, but she's also progressive.  Read the codex.  She sides with mages.  She wants change.  She wants to work with the mages and does.  The Templar order and the Seeker order are splintering from The Chantry BECAUSE of her progressiveness.  You essentially have schism in The Chantry.  You also have a schism with the mages.

Gaider already said we wouldn't be forced to work for the Chantry in Inquisition.

There are different views about Divine Justina V. Xil has addressed that it seemed like Divine Justina V was trying to placate the mages to keep them under the control of the Chantry of Andraste. Restoring the status quo of the Chantry controlled Circles is something I have no interest in accomplishing.

nedpepper wrote...

So, even if you ARE forced to work for her, how is any different than being forced to work for the Grey Wardens? You can hate her if you want.  But I imagine there's more to you being the Inquisitor than your faith.  It's probably like in Asunder.  The Chantry is reaching out to find people to solve a problem that could destroy all of Thedas.  We don't know how our PC will be recruited, but I really doubt it's going to be that you are some kind of initiate in the Chantry.

The Grey Wardens are an organization of people of different faiths and racial backgrounds who fight against the greatest threat Thedas has ever faced - the darkspawn; in contrast, the Chantry is a religious organization that is condemned by some characters for the slavery of mages in the Chantry controlled Circles, and for sacking the Dales because the elves refused to convert (based on what the elven protagonist can tell the priest of Andraste in Ostagar, and the Dalish Warden's codex on the fall of the Dales).

nedpepper wrote...

Again, Asunder shows this all very well.  I could be wrong.  I only have the info you guys have.  But my intuition says I'm probably right.

I have no interest in serving the Chantry of Andraste, or Divine Justina V. Apparently, some people feel the same way that I do about the Andrastian Chantry.

[Maclimes]

Was this not enough?

David Gaider wrote...
You aren't going to be forced to serve the Chantry or even think it's a good thing. You aren't forced to express belief in the Maker. I said previously we would try to allow options to actively express doubt, if that's your thing, so long as it works in context. You of course will also have the option to do the opposite.

Why is this thread still going? Why are you still arguing? Gaider said, without a doubt, that in DA3 you will not be forced to express belief in the Maker, and they will try to squeeze in some atheistic/agnostic style options. He said, without a doubt, that you will not be required to work for the chantry or even like the chantry.

WHY ARE YOU STILL ARGUING? I need to go have a lie-down.

Modifié par Maclimes, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:28 .

[LobselVith8]

nedpepper wrote...

I'm aware it's not real.  But it's the dominant cultural ruler of Southern Thedas.  Again, Hawke using those phrases were more colloquial than anything else.  I played the same game you did and I never felt that I was being forced to play an Andrastian.  Sebastian is a devout Andrastian. I busted his balls every chance I could.  

Hawke telling Merrill that his deceased mother is with the Maker, or telling Feynriel that he hopes the Maker watches over him, isn't the equivalent of someone saying "God bless you."

nedpepper wrote...

But I DO think your own views are coloring the game.  Look at any "Keep Leliana DEAD!" thread.  She's the annoying religious lady.  People like KILILNG HER simply for that one aspect of her character.  Perhaps Hawke was raised in the culture, but that doesn't mean he/she becomes devout.  And I don't buy that you can't roleplay Hawke as at least an agnostic.

My view is that I think the player should have the same freedoms with the new protagonist that we had with The Warden.

nedpepper wrote...

I think you're splitting hairs here.  You're making a lot out of very little. 

And bad paraphrasing or not, I took it that Hawke didn't have to like Elthina or buy into her dogma.  Hell, you can help Anders blow up the Chantry.  And only get mad because he lied to you.  You can tell him that you would have helped him.  And strangely enough, Anders uses phrases like "By the Maker!" as well.  He is a devout Andrastian? Or does he just hates the Chantry?  It's left vague, so I'm not sure how you can draw such black and white conclusions.

Anders is a religious Andrastian. Haven't you heard him talk about his belief in the Maker and Andraste? Or his arguments with Merrill over Spirits and Demons because Andrastian dogma teaches that Spirits are Children of the Maker, and Demons are Spirits who turned their backs on Him? In Awakening and Dragon Age II, he confirms he believes in the fable about the Magisters corrupting the Golden City and turning it black. Simply because Anders adovcates for mage freedom doesn't mean he isn't a religious Andrastian.

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's clear Hawke is written to be religiously Andrastian when Hawke tells Feynriel (who believes in the Creators) that he hopes the Maker guides him, and when he tells Merrill that his deceased mother is with the Maker.

That sounds more like polite well wishes and a way of dealing with grief than something that tells me Hawke attends the Chantry once a week for services.

[Maclimes]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Anders is a religious Andrastian. Haven't you heard him talk about his belief in the Maker and Andraste? Or his arguments with Merrill over Spirits and Demons because Andrastian dogma teaches that Spirits are Children of the Maker, and Demons are Spirits who turned their backs on Him? In Awakening and Dragon Age II, he confirms he believes in the fable about the Magisters corrupting the Golden City and turning it black. Simply because Anders adovcates for mage freedom doesn't mean he isn't a religious Andrastian.

He's not the most devout follower, you gotta admit. A devout follower of Andraste probably wouldn't use a phrase like "Andraste's Flaming Knickers!"

Also, he probably wouldn't blow up a Chantry, killing dozens of fellow Andrastians in the process.