357 réponses à ce sujet

[kyles3]

David Gaider wrote...

Okay, so. Without going into specifics on the plot of DA3, because I can't do that, I will say the following:

You aren't going to be forced to serve the Chantry or even think it's a good thing. You aren't forced to express belief in the Maker. I said previously we would try to allow options to actively express doubt, if that's your thing, so long as it works in context. You of course will also have the option to do the opposite.

Sounds good to me. Looking forward to seeing how it's implemented. Wonder if character disposition will have significant impact on relationships. Talking like a Salarian for some reason. 

[LobselVith8]

nedpepper wrote...

Okay, but you had no problem following the Dalish religion.

If the opportunity arose to play as a Dalish elf who was travelling Thedas, I would accept it. I'd probably chose dialogue options that reflected that he believed in the Creators.

nedpepper wrote...

If Hawke had been Dalish and kept saying "By the Creators!", would you have still been bothered?  I'm just curious. And this is where playing as human is different than playing as a elf. The cultures are extremely different.  If you want humans to be able to worship the Creators as a choice, hey I'm down with that.  I'm down with having the PC expressing doubt.  I just don't think it's something that becomes as prominent as you believe it needs to be.

I chose to play as an apostate Hawke. I don't see why he must believe in a religion that vilifies mages.

We already had Anders, who is a religious Andrastian. Despite his willingness to emancipate the Circles of Magi by any means necessary, he genuinely believes in the Maker, in Andraste, and in the doctrine of the Chantry (with the exception of mages). His actions as a member of the mage underground, and when he destroys the Kirkwall Chantry, don't change the fact that is a religious Andrastian.

nedpepper wrote...

And there is such a thing called head canon.  Everything you percieve in your PC is not always going to be reflected in a videogame, and that comes merely from practical development issues.  There's a plot, for one.  There's a narrative.  And there are limitations, mainly from a monetary standpoint.  Every little thing you want reflected, or anyone wants reflected, just can't be accomadated.  It's not table top, free range.

Why should head canon be a substitute for agency over the protagonist in the actual game? When the dialogue with Feynriel (who follows the Creators) and Merrill (who also follows the Creators) has Hawke talk about the Maker in tones that depict him as a religious Andrastian, it removes my agency over the protagonist. When the developers make decisions about the protagonist's personality and determine who he is, then he isn't my character. That's the difference between Hawke, who is religiously Andrastian because he was written that way, and my Warden, who I could shape into a person who was atheist because I was given choices to determine who he was and what he believed in.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's clear Hawke is written to be religiously Andrastian when Hawke tells Feynriel (who believes in the Creators) that he hopes the Maker guides him, and when he tells Merrill that his deceased mother is with the Maker.

That sounds more like polite well wishes and a way of dealing with grief than something that tells me Hawke attends the Chantry once a week for services.

It means Hawke can't receive a polite visit from Merrill without postulating a heaven, for one thing.

Modifié par SeptimusMagistos, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:36 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

People hardly cared about aetheists in the dark ages. As believers saw it, the aetheist only condemned themselves to whatever hell the believers believed in. It was the heathen and heretics that was the cause of much ire back then.

Yeah. As I understand it, it was mainly something that might alienate you from other people if you proclaimed such a belief, but you weren't going to be persecuted for it in the sense of "Burn the Heretic!"

But I might be wrong.

If I'm not though, I'd very much like to see this happen in Thedas. Proclaiming an atheistic belief -- or just any belief that differs from that of Andrastians -- causes them to alienate you from society. And possibly even hate you, persecute you, insult you, etc.

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's clear Hawke is written to be religiously Andrastian when Hawke tells Feynriel (who believes in the Creators) that he hopes the Maker guides him, and when he tells Merrill that his deceased mother is with the Maker.

Yeah, Hawke definitely gives off way too many Andrastian vibes. In regards to the Feynriel one, had that been the only instance of Hawke proclaiming the Maker in some form during dialogue, I could take it as simply being a "Godspeed" equivalent.

Which it still is, but in light of all the other dialogue that happens it's more then that.

[Heimdall]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's clear Hawke is written to be religiously Andrastian when Hawke tells Feynriel (who believes in the Creators) that he hopes the Maker guides him, and when he tells Merrill that his deceased mother is with the Maker.

That sounds more like polite well wishes and a way of dealing with grief than something that tells me Hawke attends the Chantry once a week for services.

It means Hawke can't receive a polite visit from Merrill without postulating a heaven, for one thing.

I don't really see why it's so much of an issue.  I mean, Hawke was clearly raised in an Andrastrian household in a a town filled with Andrastrians.  It makes sense that Hawke would use turns of phrase that, much like phrases in our own language, have become inundated with phrases used so thoughtlessly their religious meaning is hardly considered.

None of which makes Hawke a devout follower of the Chantry.  Even if Hawke is religious, he need not ascribe to the Chantry's interpretation.

[rolson00]

kyles3 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Okay, so. Without going into specifics on the plot of DA3, because I can't do that, I will say the following:

You aren't going to be forced to serve the Chantry or even think it's a good thing. You aren't forced to express belief in the Maker. I said previously we would try to allow options to actively express doubt, if that's your thing, so long as it works in context. You of course will also have the option to do the opposite.

Sounds good to me. Looking forward to seeing how it's implemented. Wonder if character disposition will have significant impact on relationships. Talking like a Salarian for some reason. 

ah yes but will we get to spit in the divines or leliana face? only then will dragon age truly have everything

[Huntress]

David Gaider wrote...

Okay, so. Without going into specifics on the plot of DA3, because I can't do that, I will say the following:

You aren't going to be forced to serve the Chantry or even think it's a good thing. You aren't forced to express belief in the Maker. I said previously we would try to allow options to actively express doubt, if that's your thing, so long as it works in context. You of course will also have the option to do the opposite.

Ultimately, the ability to determine the personality and/or feelings on your own character is one of the fundamental strengths of an RPG, and one that DA is sticking with. Yes, it must also work within the context of the setting and the plot-- you can't do anything-- but that's always been the case with any game, and in the case of DA3 it is not required that you be forced into a certain set of beliefs in order to make it work.

Thats all good..
I have a question and the truth is, my question can likely only be answered by you, so here it goes:
 does the inquisition has a method to stop or monitor inquisitor mages from turning demons?
Simple enough question.

 I ask because It is said that the warden taint is alien to demons they can summon them, but the possession of a warden-mage can be a bit tricky, thats why Arvenus traped in a tower for who knows how many years never became a demon himself.

How much trust can this inquisiton put at the hands of a mage when  everyone for 800 years sees Mages as a threat!?..
What solid or tangible prove does the inquisition Order have that their mages will not turn into demons?
They have to have a guarantee to ensure the people that an inquisitor mage will not turn into a demon and bring a fiery death down upon them.
you don't need to answer this, but if you do, I'll be grateful.

Modifié par Huntress, 07 janvier 2013 - 05:33 .

[Uccio]

sandellniklas wrote...

The simple truth is that atheism wasn't really a thing in medieval societies.

I´m pretty sure there were enough atheists to go around in the middle ages. It just wasn´t very healthy to voice that opinion.

[SweQue]

Ukki wrote...

sandellniklas wrote...

The simple truth is that atheism wasn't really a thing in medieval societies.

I´m pretty sure there were enough atheists to go around in the middle ages. It just wasn´t very healthy to voice that opinion.

nope.
most people had a belief, but maybe not in the church. I mean, in Sweden they found a cross with hidden runesymbols on it, that guy who had that cross in secret worshiped Odin and the old gods. But to believe people were atheist, when no evolution theory/big bang was even brought up, and you lived in the same city without exposure to much history or other religions... naah.

many people thought the church was corrupt and never spoke up, that didnt change the fact that most people were believers and while I may be an atheist/agnostic...if I lived in a world with demons,spirit,magic and other crazy stuff, then yes, believing in a maker isnt all that far fetched.

[Dabrikishaw]

Oh this an old thread.

[LobselVith8]

SweQue wrote...

nope.

Atheism has existed for centuries, it isn't a modern concept.

SweQue wrote...

most people had a belief, but maybe not in the church. I mean, in Sweden they found a cross with hidden runesymbols on it, that guy who had that cross in secret worshiped Odin and the old gods. But to believe people were atheist, when no evolution theory/big bang was even brought up, and you lived in the same city without exposure to much history or other religions... naah.

Silfren already made a post that explained why this isn't the case, and she provided a link that illustrated how atheism has been around for centuries.

SweQue wrote...

many people thought the church was corrupt and never spoke up, that didnt change the fact that most people were believers and while I may be an atheist/agnostic...if I lived in a world with demons,spirit,magic and other crazy stuff, then yes, believing in a maker isnt all that far fetched. 

We already have a character disputing the idea that spirits, magic, and demons mean that the Maker must be real. Morrigan's retort to Leliana's comment, "But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist." is to say: "The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure." Regardless of what view you have about Morrigan, it's a simple enough statement to address why magic and spirits don't necessitate the need to believe in a higher power.

[SweQue]

I didnt read Silfrens post, but atheism wasnt common at all up in Scandinavia in the middle age. And yes, I read Dick Harrison's (PhD in history) books about how it was here.
Most commoners believed what was taught around them. And they rarely had any education beside that. In fact, most Swedes didnt even know they were Swedes, thats how uneducated the masses was.

Modifié par SweQue, 07 janvier 2013 - 06:32 .

[esper]

Huntress wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Okay, so. Without going into specifics on the plot of DA3, because I can't do that, I will say the following:

You aren't going to be forced to serve the Chantry or even think it's a good thing. You aren't forced to express belief in the Maker. I said previously we would try to allow options to actively express doubt, if that's your thing, so long as it works in context. You of course will also have the option to do the opposite.

Ultimately, the ability to determine the personality and/or feelings on your own character is one of the fundamental strengths of an RPG, and one that DA is sticking with. Yes, it must also work within the context of the setting and the plot-- you can't do anything-- but that's always been the case with any game, and in the case of DA3 it is not required that you be forced into a certain set of beliefs in order to make it work.

Thats all good..
I have a question and the truth is, my question can likely only be answered by you, so here it goes:
 does the inquisition has a method to stop or monitor inquisitor mages from turning demons?
Simple enough question.

 I ask because It is said that the warden taint is alien to demons they can summon them, but the possession of a warden-mage can be a bit tricky, thats why Arvenus traped in a tower for who knows how many years never became a demon himself.

How much trust can this inquisiton put at the hands of a mage when  everyone for 800 years sees Mages as a threat!?..
What solid or tangible prove does the inquisition Order have that their mages will not turn into demons?
They have to have a guarantee to ensure the people that an inquisitor mage will not turn into a demon and bring a fiery death down upon them.
you don't need to answer this, but if you do, I'll be grateful.

Shouldn't we wait with this question untill we know what the inqustion is and if we are working for it. (For all we know we are hunted by it).

Yes, I am a bit uneasy because of the title too, and I adressed in the old tread why I think it was a wrong name to pick. (Both for game and organisation if we are working for it). Basically Inqustion have some nasty real world and in world associations and it is near impossible for us not to think of these when we hear the names, hence stupid, stupid name.

But untill we have more information about what the game is about question such as these are impossible to have answered.

[Huntress]

esper wrote...

Shouldn't we wait with this question untill we know what the inqustion is and if we are working for it. (For all we know we are hunted by it).

Yes, I am a bit uneasy because of the title too, and I adressed in the old tread why I think it was a wrong name to pick. (Both for game and organisation if we are working for it). Basically Inqustion have some nasty real world and in world associations and it is near impossible for us not to think of these when we hear the names, hence stupid, stupid name.

But untill we have more information about what the game is about question such as these are impossible to have answered.

Rolling eyes
You are probably right.

I don't like the name or what the next hero is going to be part of.. but whatever I'll wait.

[Bob Garbage]

The PC could lose their faith a la game events, bam.

[esper]

Huntress wrote...

esper wrote...

Shouldn't we wait with this question untill we know what the inqustion is and if we are working for it. (For all we know we are hunted by it).

Yes, I am a bit uneasy because of the title too, and I adressed in the old tread why I think it was a wrong name to pick. (Both for game and organisation if we are working for it). Basically Inqustion have some nasty real world and in world associations and it is near impossible for us not to think of these when we hear the names, hence stupid, stupid name.

But untill we have more information about what the game is about question such as these are impossible to have answered.

Rolling eyes
You are probably right.

I don't like the name or what the next hero is going to be part of.. but whatever I'll wait.

If it makes you feel better this is one of these thinking, I would rather not be right about it, but... well... there is nothing to do about it, other than cross our fingers and hope for the best.

(I am going to throw a coin in the nearest wishing well and wish that we are hunted by the inqusition. It is still this small, undying hope I have. I know it won't come through, but... I still hope.)

[LobselVith8]

Bob Garbage wrote...

The PC could lose their faith a la game events, bam.

Some of us would rather not be religiously Andrastian at all, at any point.

[SwordofMercy1]

I don't think ts a matter of choice as well. We are playing a game that allows us to create a character that is an extension of ourselves, or something the complete opposite. For instance, I'm agnostic, but I made at least two characters that are devout Andrastians and one the worships the Ancestors. I guess is depends upon ones preferences of who and what they wish play as. And I wouldn't say we are being forced to. I mean, if you look at the Circle mage from DA:O, you can either agree to the teachings of the Circle, or make it very clear that you are not happy about being in the Circle. So, I would think if we got stuck, in the Inquisition side, there would be options to leave or kick and scream all the way. Though I don't think they would force us to start off in the Inquisition faction.

[Huntress]

SwordofMercy1 wrote...

I don't think ts a matter of choice as well. We are playing a game that allows us to create a character that is an extension of ourselves, or something the complete opposite. For instance, I'm agnostic, but I made at least two characters that are devout Andrastians and one the worships the Ancestors. I guess is depends upon ones preferences of who and what they wish play as. And I wouldn't say we are being forced to. I mean, if you look at the Circle mage from DA:O, you can either agree to the teachings of the Circle, or make it very clear that you are not happy about being in the Circle. So, I would think if we got stuck, in the Inquisition side, there would be options to leave or kick and scream all the way. Though I don't think they would force us to start off in the Inquisition faction.

And yet you are showing us options from DAO while Da3 has none:
1)mage warden could be an andrastian and love the circle like wynne or options (2)mage warden could tell lelina "there is no maker" and to wynne "I hate the circle and glad to be out of that **. Options.

until now all we know is the Character is an INquisitor who is going to take/charge of an organization... no a f chance of not being one, not a change of not being part of say organization. there is NO danm OPTIONS. see my problem?

You are totally fine with starting as a blood-mage who soon will become an inquisitor, while I am agaisnt for mages to take part of the Inquisitor Order or to  begin as one.
do you need me to keep chewing it to make it more clear?

Modifié par Huntress, 07 janvier 2013 - 07:32 .

[Bob Garbage]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Bob Garbage wrote...

The PC could lose their faith a la game events, bam.

Some of us would rather not be religiously Andrastian at all, at any point.

God damn heathens.

[guitarsniper]

Here's my question. I'm fine with a PC being allowed to be an atheist, or a believer, or whatever. My question is, will there be options for the PC to be a FANATIC? Although i know it might make some people uncomfortable, I feel like it could make for some interesting RP points and some cool storytelling.

[Auintus]

Andrastian, sure, if I must, but I don't want to serve the Chantry. They're too contradictory. They frown on elves, mages and blood magic, then Elthina claims that the Blight was ended by the Maker acting through my elven blood mage. I call bogus.
And that's not even starting on that holier-than-thou priest at Ostagar. "That the wardens let the likes of you into their ranks is forever their greatest weakness." Would've loved to toss that back in her face after me and Alistair ended the Blight.

[esper]

Huntress wrote...

SwordofMercy1 wrote...

I don't think ts a matter of choice as well. We are playing a game that allows us to create a character that is an extension of ourselves, or something the complete opposite. For instance, I'm agnostic, but I made at least two characters that are devout Andrastians and one the worships the Ancestors. I guess is depends upon ones preferences of who and what they wish play as. And I wouldn't say we are being forced to. I mean, if you look at the Circle mage from DA:O, you can either agree to the teachings of the Circle, or make it very clear that you are not happy about being in the Circle. So, I would think if we got stuck, in the Inquisition side, there would be options to leave or kick and scream all the way. Though I don't think they would force us to start off in the Inquisition faction.

And yet you are showing us options from DAO while Da3 has none:
1)mage warden could be an andrastian and love the circle like wynne or options (2)mage warden could tell lelina "there is no maker" and to wynne "I hate the circle and glad to be out of that **. Options.

until now all we know is the Character is an INquisitor who is going to take/charge of an organization... no a f chance of not being one, not a change of not being part of say organization. there is NO danm OPTIONS. see my problem?

You are totally fine with starting as a blood-mage who soon will become an inquisitor, while I am agaisnt for mages to take part of the Inquisitor Order or to  begin as one.
do you need me to keep chewing it to make it more clear?

Well, da:o made increible hard for me to make a human dalish elf who gave F**** about Fereldan.
We might still get option for inqustion. I hope. I really hope.