357 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

guitarsniper wrote...

Here's my question. I'm fine with a PC being allowed to be an atheist, or a believer, or whatever. My question is, will there be options for the PC to be a FANATIC? Although i know it might make some people uncomfortable, I feel like it could make for some interesting RP points and some cool storytelling.

You can be that easily. Choose every +pro religion choice and be as aggressive as possible towards people who dare to not think too highly on the chantry. (There are going to be ones).

[LobselVith8]

Bob Garbage wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Bob Garbage wrote...

The PC could lose their faith a la game events, bam.

Some of us would rather not be religiously Andrastian at all, at any point.

God damn heathens.

Don't you mean 'Maker damn'? 

[Indoctrination]

A lot of people use video games to live out their anti-religious fantasies due to how powerless they are to enact their bigotries against religion in real life.

[Peer of the Empire]

All they have to do is accept that their chantry character is atheist.  Problem solved

[Huntress]

esper wrote...

Well, da:o made increible hard for me to make a human dalish elf who gave F**** about Fereldan.
We might still get option for inqustion. I hope. I really hope.

Umm I am not talking about a country, Im talking about organiizations, is hard to hate ones country, you might hate the goverment who rules or some inforced laws but.. why would you hate you're own country.. you are a part of it, even if you are 200000 miles away from Thedas..hating ones country is hating what you are.. it makes no sense. Ferelden elves or human are very proud of who they are and I love to play as a ferelden.

And I (think) Bioware said the main character will be an Inquisitor...

Modifié par Huntress, 08 janvier 2013 - 01:05 .

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

why do people want to be an atheist if you serve the chantry?

*YAWN* I'm so very bored with this issue...

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 08 janvier 2013 - 01:11 .

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Indoctrination wrote...

A lot of people use video games to live out their anti-religious fantasies due to how powerless they are to enact their bigotries against religion in real life.

What exactly makes people powerless to be bigoted?

[Indoctrination]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

What exactly makes people powerless to be bigoted?

Oh, I'm sure there are many reasons as to why atheists are powerless these days to force people to stop being religious. The collapse of the Soviet Union being a massive blow to anti-religious culture, constititions of free countries all over the world protecting religious freedom, etc, etc. It's not all bad though. If you are so inclined, you can still bother the developers of BioWare games to let you vent your anti-religious frustrations in their video games!

"Take that you bad, digital priest! I just murdered you! That proves how superior atheism is!"

Although this line of coversation is a bit of harmless fun, I fear I may be hitting too close to home for some people. People who may begin harassing moderators and demand that they silence the bad people who are making them uncomfortable! Perhaps we should stop here.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Because of one reason & one reason alone :-

In DA so far we do not have many factions that we can do quests for. We had Blackstone Irregulars & the Chantry via Chanters Board & that's about it. We didn't have many choices of factions we can join or do quests for like we have in other games like Elder Scrolls does with Fighters Guild, Companions, Mages Guild, College of Winterhold, Dark Brotherhood, Dawnguard, Volkihar Vampires..

& among the 2 available guilds/factions that gave quests in DA, only the Chantry quests makes me feel that I am actually helping people in need.

So no, I & my characters don't serve the Chantry. I just do their quest out of goodwill & lack of other faction related quests that involve in directly helping the people...

[Fisto The Sexbot]

My god...

[esper]

Huntress wrote...

esper wrote...

Well, da:o made increible hard for me to make a human dalish elf who gave F**** about Fereldan.
We might still get option for inqustion. I hope. I really hope.

Umm I am not talking about a country, Im talking about organiizations, is hard to hate ones country, you might hate the goverment who rules or some inforced laws but.. why would you hate you're own country.. you are a part of it, even if you are 200000 miles away from Thedas..hating ones country is hating what you are.. it makes no sense. Ferelden elves or human are very proud of who they are and I love to play as a ferelden.

And I (think) Bioware said the main character will be an Inquisitor...

She was dalish, that meant not Fereldan. It is quite easy for a dalish elf not to care for a county of humans, whose king did not make a good first impression on her. For her 'Fereldan' was a much a human institution as 'chantry' and she couldn't honestly see why going to Orlais were there were experienced grey warden who knew what to do (something which Alistair clearly didn't) wasn't a better idea. Sadly the game forgot that it had allowed for such an intro into the story once they passed Lothering, and I just gave up on playing her midways. To much hassle and head canon for to little gain.

Modifié par esper, 08 janvier 2013 - 11:20 .

[Swagger7]

Indoctrination wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

What exactly makes people powerless to be bigoted?

Oh, I'm sure there are many reasons as to why atheists are powerless these days to force people to stop being religious. The collapse of the Soviet Union being a massive blow to anti-religious culture, constititions of free countries all over the world protecting religious freedom, etc, etc. It's not all bad though. If you are so inclined, you can still bother the developers of BioWare games to let you vent your anti-religious frustrations in their video games!

"Take that you bad, digital priest! I just murdered you! That proves how superior atheism is!"

Although this line of coversation is a bit of harmless fun, I fear I may be hitting too close to home for some people. People who may begin harassing moderators and demand that they silence the bad people who are making them uncomfortable! Perhaps we should stop here.

I'm trying to figure out how you could possibly think this is "Hitting too close to home for some people".  The vast, vast majority of atheists how no desire to "force people to stop being religious".  In fact, good luck finding anyone with that attitude.  Even atheists who are politically active are typically just interested in protecting their own freedoms from religion, or blocking religions from getting special privileges that they claim entitlement to. 

I'll use the US as an example:  If your religion comes under fire from a large number of atheists here it generally means that you've been either pushing your religion into government and forcing it on others (banned by the First Amendment) or trying to pass laws that force others to abide by your religious morals.  We take exception to these, as would you if it was another religion doing the pushing.  Most politically active American atheists are simply pushing for a secular country where no one must answer to tenents of a religion they don't believe in, and where everyone is free to believe or disbelieve as they see fit.  Stopping Group A from oppressing the rights of Group B is not an act of persecution against Group A.

Most atheists on the BSN just want the ability to not have their character railroaded into a religious belief.  (and to be fair, Gaider said we won't be, so these discussions are kind of pointless) There are a few vocal ones who really want to smash the Chantry but that's literally like two to three people.  There are other people who would like to reduce the power that the Chantry has over Thedas, but like I mentioned before that has nothing to do with persecuting them.

If you cannot see this, if you think that all atheist disagreement with your beliefs must be persecution, then I am sorry but you either have an incredibly overblown sense of entitlement or you simply know nothing about atheists.

EDIT: I forgot to address your first comment.  Not believing in a religion or opposing the political actions of one is not bigotry.  If you sincerely believe that all the atheists who want to play as a nonbelieving character are bigots then you either don't know what that word means or, as I'm beginning to suspect, you've gotten all you know about atheism and secularism from some very biased propaganda.

Modifié par Swagger7, 08 janvier 2013 - 11:54 .

[Wolfspawn]

Oh, God, this again?

The PC doesn't have to serve the Chantry or the Mage Rebellion, if they don't want to. David Gaider explicitly stated so.

[Swagger7]

SweQue wrote...

I didnt read Silfrens post, but atheism wasnt common at all up in Scandinavia in the middle age. And yes, I read Dick Harrison's (PhD in history) books about how it was here.
Most commoners believed what was taught around them. And they rarely had any education beside that. In fact, most Swedes didnt even know they were Swedes, thats how uneducated the masses was.

There's a big difference between not being common and not existing at all.  If it was rare then it still existed and there's no reason not to include the option in a roleplaying game.  I mentioned this earlier, but now might be a good time to bring it up again:

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent...then/06258b.htm): 
"in the Middle Ages there were to be found rationalists, or free-thinkers, among the philosophers of the schools. The Fathers of the Church had met with paganism with its own weapons and argued against the falsehoods with the help of the natural reason. The early heretics were free-thinkers in their rejection of the regulating authority of the Church upon points connected with their heresies, which they elaborated frequently upon rationalistic lines; and the pantheists and others of the schools criticized and syllogized revelation away in true free-thought style. Both were in consequence condemned; but the spirit
of excess in criticism and the reliance on the sufficiency of human reason are as typical of the free thought of the medieval times as that of the twentieth century."

Even the Catholics acknowledge the existance of freethinkers and rationalists in the Middle Ages.

Modifié par Swagger7, 08 janvier 2013 - 12:04 .

[esper]

Swagger7 wrote...

Indoctrination wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

What exactly makes people powerless to be bigoted?

Oh, I'm sure there are many reasons as to why atheists are powerless these days to force people to stop being religious. The collapse of the Soviet Union being a massive blow to anti-religious culture, constititions of free countries all over the world protecting religious freedom, etc, etc. It's not all bad though. If you are so inclined, you can still bother the developers of BioWare games to let you vent your anti-religious frustrations in their video games!

"Take that you bad, digital priest! I just murdered you! That proves how superior atheism is!"

Although this line of coversation is a bit of harmless fun, I fear I may be hitting too close to home for some people. People who may begin harassing moderators and demand that they silence the bad people who are making them uncomfortable! Perhaps we should stop here.

I'm trying to figure out how you could possibly think this is "Hitting too close to home for some people".  The vast, vast majority of atheists how no desire to "force people to stop being religious".  In fact, good luck finding anyone with that attitude.  Even atheists who are politically active are typically just interested in protecting their own freedoms from religion, or blocking religions from getting special privileges that they claim entitlement to. 

I'll use the US as an example:  If your religion comes under fire from a large number of atheists here it generally means that you've been either pushing your religion into government and forcing it on others (banned by the First Amendment) or trying to pass laws that force others to abide by your religious morals.  We take exception to these, as would you if it was another religion doing the pushing.  Most politically active American atheists are simply pushing for a secular country where no one must answer to tenents of a religion they don't believe in, and where everyone is free to believe or disbelieve as they see fit.  Stopping Group A from oppressing the rights of Group B is not an act of persecution against Group A.

Most atheists on the BSN just want the ability to not have their character railroaded into a religious belief.  (and to be fair, Gaider said we won't be, so these discussions are kind of pointless) There are a few vocal ones who really want to smash the Chantry but that's literally like two to three people.  There are other people who would like to reduce the power that the Chantry has over Thedas, but like I mentioned before that has nothing to do with persecuting them.

If you cannot see this, if you think that all atheist disagreement with your beliefs must be persecution, then I am sorry but you either have an incredibly overblown sense of entitlement or you simply know nothing about atheists.

EDIT: I forgot to address your first comment.  Not believing in a religion or opposing the political actions of one is not bigotry.  If you sincerely believe that all the atheists who want to play as a nonbelieving character are bigots then you either don't know what that word means or, as I'm beginning to suspect, you've gotten all you know about atheism and secularism from some very biased propaganda.

My personal war agains the chantry is not against real life religion. I personally find Thedas chantry morally wrong:

Oppressing different groups of people in the past and present, have an belief in a malevouent deity whose (if he was real which I hope he is not) attention Thedas is far better off not having than having, their official understanding is toxic towards certain groups and poison the mind of people with fear and hate and furthermore it is a main goal to have that faith spread over all four corners in the world so that their evil deity might give his attention towards humanity again untill his next hissy fit.

I find the that Thedas would be a far better place in the long run without this specific religion, and as thus I want the chantry 'smashed' as you so beatifully paint it. I have nothing against real life religions. Most big religions in my county have official views on their doctrine which is quite nice and harm no one.

[Swagger7]

esper wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

Indoctrination wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

What exactly makes people powerless to be bigoted?

Oh, I'm sure there are many reasons as to why atheists are powerless these days to force people to stop being religious. The collapse of the Soviet Union being a massive blow to anti-religious culture, constititions of free countries all over the world protecting religious freedom, etc, etc. It's not all bad though. If you are so inclined, you can still bother the developers of BioWare games to let you vent your anti-religious frustrations in their video games!

"Take that you bad, digital priest! I just murdered you! That proves how superior atheism is!"

Although this line of coversation is a bit of harmless fun, I fear I may be hitting too close to home for some people. People who may begin harassing moderators and demand that they silence the bad people who are making them uncomfortable! Perhaps we should stop here.

I'm trying to figure out how you could possibly think this is "Hitting too close to home for some people".  The vast, vast majority of atheists how no desire to "force people to stop being religious".  In fact, good luck finding anyone with that attitude.  Even atheists who are politically active are typically just interested in protecting their own freedoms from religion, or blocking religions from getting special privileges that they claim entitlement to. 

I'll use the US as an example:  If your religion comes under fire from a large number of atheists here it generally means that you've been either pushing your religion into government and forcing it on others (banned by the First Amendment) or trying to pass laws that force others to abide by your religious morals.  We take exception to these, as would you if it was another religion doing the pushing.  Most politically active American atheists are simply pushing for a secular country where no one must answer to tenents of a religion they don't believe in, and where everyone is free to believe or disbelieve as they see fit.  Stopping Group A from oppressing the rights of Group B is not an act of persecution against Group A.

Most atheists on the BSN just want the ability to not have their character railroaded into a religious belief.  (and to be fair, Gaider said we won't be, so these discussions are kind of pointless) There are a few vocal ones who really want to smash the Chantry but that's literally like two to three people.  There are other people who would like to reduce the power that the Chantry has over Thedas, but like I mentioned before that has nothing to do with persecuting them.

If you cannot see this, if you think that all atheist disagreement with your beliefs must be persecution, then I am sorry but you either have an incredibly overblown sense of entitlement or you simply know nothing about atheists.

EDIT: I forgot to address your first comment.  Not believing in a religion or opposing the political actions of one is not bigotry.  If you sincerely believe that all the atheists who want to play as a nonbelieving character are bigots then you either don't know what that word means or, as I'm beginning to suspect, you've gotten all you know about atheism and secularism from some very biased propaganda.

My personal war agains the chantry is not against real life religion. I personally find Thedas chantry morally wrong:

Oppressing different groups of people in the past and present, have an belief in a malevouent deity whose (if he was real which I hope he is not) attention Thedas is far better off not having than having, their official understanding is toxic towards certain groups and poison the mind of people with fear and hate and furthermore it is a main goal to have that faith spread over all four corners in the world so that their evil deity might give his attention towards humanity again untill his next hissy fit.

I find the that Thedas would be a far better place in the long run without this specific religion, and as thus I want the chantry 'smashed' as you so beatifully paint it. I have nothing against real life religions. Most big religions in my county have official views on their doctrine which is quite nice and harm no one.

Would you want the Chantry destroyed and its believers persecuted?  Because if so that does make you something of a bigot (in-game anyway).  If, on the other hand, you just wanted to see the Chantry's political power and its ability to persecute other taken away, and people free to believe it or ignore it as they see fit, then you are pushing for the things I mentioned in my comment to Indoctrination (who I just realized has the most apt name in the history of the BSN).  There is nothing wrong with that.

The thing to remember about religions is that even when a religion is harming others, there are still good people who sincerely believe in it.  To crush the whole thing you would wind up killing everyone who refused to convert away from their beliefs.  Most of these would be good people and undeserving of death.  If you were to do something like that you'd be no better than every other army in history that has converted by the sword.  Curtailing the power of a group to oppress others while promoting freedom of conscience  is totally different than destroying it.

[esper]

Swagger7 wrote...

esper wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

Indoctrination wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

What exactly makes people powerless to be bigoted?

Oh, I'm sure there are many reasons as to why atheists are powerless these days to force people to stop being religious. The collapse of the Soviet Union being a massive blow to anti-religious culture, constititions of free countries all over the world protecting religious freedom, etc, etc. It's not all bad though. If you are so inclined, you can still bother the developers of BioWare games to let you vent your anti-religious frustrations in their video games!

"Take that you bad, digital priest! I just murdered you! That proves how superior atheism is!"

Although this line of coversation is a bit of harmless fun, I fear I may be hitting too close to home for some people. People who may begin harassing moderators and demand that they silence the bad people who are making them uncomfortable! Perhaps we should stop here.

I'm trying to figure out how you could possibly think this is "Hitting too close to home for some people".  The vast, vast majority of atheists how no desire to "force people to stop being religious".  In fact, good luck finding anyone with that attitude.  Even atheists who are politically active are typically just interested in protecting their own freedoms from religion, or blocking religions from getting special privileges that they claim entitlement to. 

I'll use the US as an example:  If your religion comes under fire from a large number of atheists here it generally means that you've been either pushing your religion into government and forcing it on others (banned by the First Amendment) or trying to pass laws that force others to abide by your religious morals.  We take exception to these, as would you if it was another religion doing the pushing.  Most politically active American atheists are simply pushing for a secular country where no one must answer to tenents of a religion they don't believe in, and where everyone is free to believe or disbelieve as they see fit.  Stopping Group A from oppressing the rights of Group B is not an act of persecution against Group A.

Most atheists on the BSN just want the ability to not have their character railroaded into a religious belief.  (and to be fair, Gaider said we won't be, so these discussions are kind of pointless) There are a few vocal ones who really want to smash the Chantry but that's literally like two to three people.  There are other people who would like to reduce the power that the Chantry has over Thedas, but like I mentioned before that has nothing to do with persecuting them.

If you cannot see this, if you think that all atheist disagreement with your beliefs must be persecution, then I am sorry but you either have an incredibly overblown sense of entitlement or you simply know nothing about atheists.

EDIT: I forgot to address your first comment.  Not believing in a religion or opposing the political actions of one is not bigotry.  If you sincerely believe that all the atheists who want to play as a nonbelieving character are bigots then you either don't know what that word means or, as I'm beginning to suspect, you've gotten all you know about atheism and secularism from some very biased propaganda.

My personal war agains the chantry is not against real life religion. I personally find Thedas chantry morally wrong:

Oppressing different groups of people in the past and present, have an belief in a malevouent deity whose (if he was real which I hope he is not) attention Thedas is far better off not having than having, their official understanding is toxic towards certain groups and poison the mind of people with fear and hate and furthermore it is a main goal to have that faith spread over all four corners in the world so that their evil deity might give his attention towards humanity again untill his next hissy fit.

I find the that Thedas would be a far better place in the long run without this specific religion, and as thus I want the chantry 'smashed' as you so beatifully paint it. I have nothing against real life religions. Most big religions in my county have official views on their doctrine which is quite nice and harm no one.

Would you want the Chantry destroyed and its believers persecuted?  Because if so that does make you something of a bigot (in-game anyway).  If, on the other hand, you just wanted to see the Chantry's political power and its ability to persecute other taken away, and people free to believe it or ignore it as they see fit, then you are pushing for the things I mentioned in my comment to Indoctrination (who I just realized has the most apt name in the history of the BSN).  There is nothing wrong with that.

The thing to remember about religions is that even when a religion is harming others, there are still good people who sincerely believe in it.  To crush the whole thing you would wind up killing everyone who refused to convert away from their beliefs.  Most of these would be good people and undeserving of death.  If you were to do something like that you'd be no better than every other army in history that has converted by the sword.  Curtailing the power of a group to oppress others while promoting freedom of conscience  is totally different than destroying it.

The chantry destryed. Yes, it is an organization. Not a person. And it should be destroyed or at least radically changed to the degree that it cannot be called the same chantry.
 Its people prosecuted, no. I want the chantry tootless and without influence. That means no military and no political influence. Elthina was a good person, she was also dangerous in the position she was in because she was so incompetent. She is shares a great deal of the blame for the Qunari and Meridith.
Untill the chantry has lost all of it teeth, I will continue fighting it. I will not seek out and harm the lay sister who only wishes to help the common person and who can do nothing about the world situation anyway, but any member of the chantry who has the means and/or the influence to affect politics and spread their abhorrent religion, I will attempt to remove from their position. By non-violent means first, of course, but should they prove ineffective then, yes, I will use violence. My problem are not with the individual believers, it is with the irganization, once that is destroyed there are no reason to continue fighting. Of course some people will die in the fighting off it, that is sad, but it is necessary.

Being good is not enough to shield you if you are siding with the wrong Organization.

[LobselVith8]

Indoctrination wrote...

A lot of people use video games to live out their anti-religious fantasies due to how powerless they are to enact their bigotries against religion in real life.

I respectfully disagree, Indocturination. Many people have addressed their reasons for hating the Chantry of Andraste - from the historical event of sending templars into the Dales to force conversion to the human religion (according to the Dalish codex and one of the arguments made by the elven protagonist at Ostagar), to enslaving mages in the Circles of Magi (a view held by Ferelden co-founder Aldenon the Wise and pro-mage Hawke). Not everyone agrees about what happened to the Dales or the nature of the Circle of Magi, but they are some reasons why people find the Chantry of Andraste to be a repellent and horrific religious organization.

If a person hates a fictional religious organization for its treatment of elves and mages, that doesn't mean they hate real world religious organizations.

[Trolldrool]

Didn't Gaider already confirm 3 months ago that nobody are going to be forced to be devoted Andrastians, serve the chantry or perceive the chantry as a good thing? How am I looking at posts made less than an hour ago? If you haven't managed to convince each other of your own perception yet after 3 months, it's not likely to ever happen.

[esper]

Trolldrool wrote...

Didn't Gaider already confirm 3 months ago that nobody are going to be forced to be devoted Andrastians, serve the chantry or perceive the chantry as a good thing? How am I looking at posts made less than an hour ago? If you haven't managed to convince each other of your own perception yet after 3 months, it's not likely to ever happen.

Why shouldn't that prevent from having a civil conversation about it? What else should we do, beat each other with stick.

[Bhaal]

Somehow topics like this always goes the wrong way. Let's sort this out: i'm straight, ex-muslim atheist.male. Reason i want the option to play an atheist/secular character: well because it's an "option". I role played many religious characters both evil and good. Rp'ing a zealot or a wise man of faith (like Obi Wan of Eps IV) was always appealing to me.

Yet role playing an atheist character in a fantasy setting just as (even more so to be honest) appealing. Even when it's a fact that there are god-like beings exist in this setting, wheter they're subject of faith or not is up to discussion (Valygar of BG2 is a good example who was an atheist ranger.).

I can role play a character who is atheist out of his selfish nature or selfless idealism or just because her mama died and gods didn't do nothing... reasons should belong to the player. I always looked to gay romance options that way. I never tried ( okay okay i did one lesbian Dalish Elf okay! I know it's shallow of me! ) but knowing the option is here important.

For some reason everyone believe such options should be included because there are gay or atheist players and they deserve some love too. Truth is: a good role playing game must have vast options so the player define her "character" the way she wanted. Options on sexuality, race, morality, religion... all needed in a role playing game. If i have those then i don't care wheter i can't customise my armor or not.

People even forget Bioware makes role playing games i guess...

Modifié par Adakutay, 08 janvier 2013 - 04:47 .

[philippe willaume]

well to answer the original question
the char do so that in the unlikely case the Chantry is right, he get a get out of the fade free card.
phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 08 janvier 2013 - 04:55 .

[LobselVith8]

Indoctrination wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

What exactly makes people powerless to be bigoted?

Oh, I'm sure there are many reasons as to why atheists are powerless these days to force people to stop being religious.

I don't think people asking for an option that was available in Origins means that anyone is trying to stop anyone else from being religious.

Furthermore, playing a character who is atheist in Thedas doesn't mean that the player is an atheist in the real world, since the Chantry is a fictional religion. I've asked for the option for my protagonist to be atheist to return in Inquisition, because I dislike the Chantry of Andraste specifically. However, I don't exclusively play as an atheist protagonist: my Courier is atheist, while my Lone Wanderer is Christian; my Volkihar mage follows the Tribunal, while my Lycan assassin follows the Dread Father Sithis.

It comes down to having control in determining who my protagonist is. That's why I purchase these types of RPGs; I'm not interested in being given a pre-determined protagonist for this type of game when I want to shape who my character is.

Indoctrination wrote...

The collapse of the Soviet Union being a massive blow to anti-religious culture, constititions of free countries all over the world protecting religious freedom, etc, etc. It's not all bad though. If you are so inclined, you can still bother the developers of BioWare games to let you vent your anti-religious frustrations in their video games!

Playing as an atheist protagonist doesn't mean we hate religion in the real world, or that we hate religious people or religion in general. I genuinely don't understand why you think otherwise. Some of us sincerely dislike the Chantry of Andraste for what they have historically done to the elves and the mages, and what they do in present day Thedas to these people.

Also, we want the freedom to define who our protagonist is. As I explained to Upsettingshorts three months ago (you can read the entire post at the link, but I'll provide the crux of my retort): 

LobselVith8 wrote...

I pointed out Hawke is "religiously Andrastian." When Hawke tells Merrill that his deceased mother is with the Maker, or tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him, it doesn't give me any option to have Hawke say something that provides a different view for the protagonist. Hawke is, essenially, forced to be religiously Andrastian, because the player isn't given the option to express a different point of view for their respective protagonist (i.e. atheism).

That's it. My Surana Warden had the option to be atheist, and I asked for that option to return for the Inquisitor. Nothing more, nothing less. Some players feel the same way that I do, and have expressed that they no interest in being limited to playing a religiously Andrastian character for a number of reasons, including that some have disdain for the Chantry of Andraste. No one is trying to attack religion or religious people, we simply want control to define who our protagonist is.

Indoctrination wrote...

"Take that you bad, digital priest! I just murdered you! That proves how superior atheism is!"  

Actually, it's more like I would have preferred to have my apostate Hawke be atheist because I don't see the point in my mage protagonist following a religion that actively persecutes and vilifies people like his father, his sister, his lover, and himself. Why should my protagonist have to follow the Chantry of Andraste? My Surana Warden condemned the Chantry for invading and sacking the Dales, informed Leliana he didn't believed Andraste was divine and told Velanna he felt Andraste simply used their ancestors for her cause, and explained to Justice that he didn't believe in the Maker. Honestly, it's as simple as having that kind of freedom again for our protagonist; finding the Chantry of Andraste to be morally reprehensible doesn't mean we are trying to destroy religion in the real world.

Indoctrination wrote...

Although this line of coversation is a bit of harmless fun, I fear I may be hitting too close to home for some people. People who may begin harassing moderators and demand that they silence the bad people who are making them uncomfortable! Perhaps we should stop here. 

I don't see why hating the Chantry of Andraste would be hitting "close to home" for anyone, since it's a fictional religion without a real world counterpart, while elves and mages are fictional groups that don't exist in the real world.

[SweQue]

But just like some character could be deluded into thinking the Maker exist (... if he doesnt), remember, one atheist character in Dragon Age could be just as deluded and think the Maker doesnt exist, while he in fact does.
Thats just what I hope you realize LobselVith8, maybe your character ended up being wrong all the time. And keeps spreading his ignorance about atheism to other characters.

Just because the Chantry could be corrupt and wrong on many thing doesnt mean the belief in the Maker isnt.

I mean, personally I dont trust the Chantry in Dragon Age at all. But if I lived in the Dragon Age universe, I would probably believe in some kind of entity/be spirtual.
And "maker" is just a name for it.

And yes, irl im an atheist but thats because in our world there is no "spirit worlds/Black city" to study etc.

Modifié par SweQue, 08 janvier 2013 - 05:43 .

[LobselVith8]

SweQue wrote...

But just like some character could be deluded into thinking the Maker exist (... if he doesnt), remember, one atheist character in Dragon Age could be just as deluded and think the Maker doesnt exist, while he in fact does.

Thats just what I hope you realize LobselVith8, maybe your character ended up being wrong all the time.

It's not about who is right or wrong (which is just as impossible to tell in the real world as it is in Thedas), but having the freedom to have your protagonist believe in the Maker or believe there is no higher power. It's all about having the freedom to shape who your protagonist is.

People have different beliefs; like how Anders thinks Merrill is wrong to believe in the Creators and to think that the denizens of the Fade are just spirits, rather than Spirits and Demons who are the Children of the Maker.