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[LobselVith8]

EntropicAngel,

If you are confused about something I said, you're welcome to inquire for clarification. Please don't presume to read things in my posts that I haven't said. Simply because I have an opinion on the Grey Wardens doesn't mean I expect my view to be imposed on everyone else. I'm simply giving my explanation for why I have no inclination to play as a member of a religious politico-military that I find morally reprehensible.

And I find it odd that you vilify an elf for killing rapists.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
If your contention is that you should have been able to express discomfort or outrage at being a Grey Warden, I don't disagree with you. I think more options could have also helped to explain why the protagonist might want to save Ferelden if they had reason not to care. However, I don't think the Chantry is altruistic; I think it's a vile and monstrous organization that enslaves an entire race of people for having magical ability, and that it sacked a nation to forcibly convert them to the Chantry of Andraste. You're welcome to your opinion on the Chantry, but it isn't going to change mine any more than mine will change yours.

Look I'm not disagreeing with you on your view of the Chantry (mostly).  I think they're the same as any Imperialists (e.g., as Tevinter, or Orlais). They just get a different justification (faith, instead of patriotism or naked greed).

Was DA:O perfect with choice? No, and that certainly wasn't my contention. My issue was that the choices we did have in Origins were not available in Dragon Age II. Instead of stripping away our choices, why not give us more? Why not improve on the flaws of Origins, instead of railroading our characters and taking away our ability to shape who the protagonist is?

But in that case, my answer is twofold: (i) I didn't feel that DA2 was restrictive in this regard, because I felt that (with sarcastic/aggressive Hawke) I could be as irreverent; and (ii) I agree with you. Bioware should improve on DA:O's flaws.

I just don't think that, aside from the locking of stock Andrastrian phrases to Diplomatic Answers (with poor paraphrasing) and worse yet, auto-dialogue-ing it sometimes, Bioware didn't really do anything different re: agnosticism/atheism.

More broadly, I agree with you that more breadth in playing styles would be welcome... but this is Bioware. They've shown pretty consistently than the breadth in playing styles they support is generally a fluke that comes out of design choices they've made, and you can see this pattern going back all the way to BGII.

Having disagreements with Grand Cleric Elthina over her passivity isn't quite what I wanted from Dragon Age II. Instead of looking at the missed opportunities from Origins and thinking "Why should they change now?" why shouldn't we seek to expand on our range of choices and freedoms with our protagonist?

In response to so general a point - they might be. I doubt it, but anyway, neither race selection nor support for an atheist PC negatives that Bioware won't expand choices from DA2 (and, in my view, from DA:O, which I saw just as restrictive).

I should add, re: Elthina, I meant telling her she was off her rocker when she said that the Hero of Ferelden was inspired by the maker (or whatever).

Modifié par In Exile, 22 octobre 2012 - 02:54 .

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Oh, it doesn't break the romance. It's just rude.

But it is not rude for Merril to suggest Leandra is with the Creators? My Hawke would have been extremely offended.

Merrill doesn't suggest that until after the "Maker" line. And why the hell would you romance her if that would offend you, unless you're one of the emotionally abusive rivalmancers?

[Swagger7]

Zobo wrote...

A lot of people like to roleplay by projecting their own personality into their characters as far as possible. So should those players be atheist, they would like to be able to transfer this trait to their characters naturally. It feels really wrong when you can't do this because bein atheist/religious person is one of the fundamental human defining characteristics in terms of a mindset and philosophical views. It is not something insignificant you can cast aside, it is actually a really big deal in real life and so it is in fiction accordingly.

In some fantasy stories gods existing is a matter of fact, confirmed multiple times by their obvious recent interventions etc. There the question usually shifts from "Am I a believer?" to "I know for a fact some gods exist, now should I be a worshipper or shouldn't I?" or even to "What being a god even means, how much power they really have, what are their origins?" Dragon Age is not like this. Maker does not appear before people, things that can be explained by his deeds can be also explained by something else (like with The Urn of Sacred Ashes writers did specifically provide us with an alternative explanation to it's powers). Tales about Andraste are ancient. So it makes perfect sense to be an atheist in-lore.

The notion that atheism was nonexistent in middle ages that appears on this forums from time to time simply doesn't hold truth. Just check up Wikipedia.

As for why there are so many people asking for this. Well, it appears we have a lot of atheists withing this community. I'm pretty sure more than we have gay people for example. So it's only natural that atheists want some recognition as well.

This may actually be the most well thought out and productive post on DA religion I've seen on this forum.

You're spot on about atheism existing in the past.  Whenever someone tries to tell me it's a new thing I point them to this:
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent...then/06258b.htm): 
"in the Middle Ages there were to be found rationalists, or free-thinkers, among the philosophers of the schools. The Fathers of the Church had met paganism with its own weapons and argued against the falsehoods with the help of the natural reason. The early heretics were free-thinkers in their rejection of the regulating authority of the Church upon points connected with their heresies, which they elaborated frequently upon rationalistic lines; and the pantheists and others of the schools criticized and syllogized revelation away in true free-thought style. Both were in consequence condemned; but the spirit of excess in criticism and the reliance on the sufficiency of human reason are as typical of the free thought of the medieval times as that of the twentieth century."

I'd also like to point out that there'd likely be much less resistance to the Chantry if Bioware hadn't made it a Madlibs version of a certain real world institution some people may have issues with.......

Modifié par Swagger7, 22 octobre 2012 - 02:59 .

[Potato Cat]

In Origins, my character was an atheist, because of what information was given to me, and I thought the Chantry was actually a major threat to Thedas.

In DA2, I went in thinking the same thing, especially as this time, my canon character was an apostate mage. However, over the course of the game, I listened to Elthina and other Chantry lovers, and I decided it wasn't THAT bad, and when I read more, I felt the new Divine was actually doing a lot of good reforming the Chantry and all. But I also got a better understanding of the Qun and the Qunari, and I, personally, fell in love with the whole philosophy, (apart from the mean treatment of the poor mages and the gender roles), but felt it was wrong for Hawke to like the Qunari, so I allied my Hawke with Petrice.

I don't care whether or not the new (human, ugh), protagonist is working for the Chantry or not, because I'll have my own opinions, the character will have theirs. Of course, there'll be crossovers, but I won't have a character that believes in more or less everything I believe, (like my Warden), until I'm allowed to be a Qunari elf. I'm prepared to wait though. I'm patient.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Merrill doesn't suggest that until after the "Maker" line. And why the hell would you romance her if that would offend you, unless you're one of the emotionally abusive rivalmancers?

By your logic, she should have shut up for fear of offending Hawke. He is grieving, the last thing he needs is a religious debate.
Since when can't you date someone that follows a different religion? Altough I don't romance Merril, I don't see why a devout Andrastian couldn't like her for reasons other than her elven heritage.

Hmmm, maybe I should complain my Hawke couldn't willingly join the Kirkwall Circle upon arrival.

[Foolsfolly]

Honestly, I believe this whole atheist thing spreads from the fact that these BSN guys may hold that belief in real life.

I don't care. Real life is separate from video game life. I'm not big on organized religion either in real life but if the setting/story/characters call for my character to be such in game I don't care.

Sure in a meta way I dislike the Chantry too. But again if that's my character's starting point that's my character's starting. If there's a chance to turn away from them than HUZZAH! If not... oh well. I couldn't turn on the Grey Wardens either.

[In Exile]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think equating "Everyone being eaten by evil zombies is bad" with "everyone should obey the Divine" makes sense. The first is not a controversial statement by any sane standards.

But no one is equating that. I am equating two things: (i) that being forced to be part of the order, Grey Wardens, is the same as being forced to be part of the order, Inquisition (i.e., insofar as you are forced into a group; and (ii) there are morally abhorent things done by the GWs and morally abhorent things done by the Inqusition, that would make a player quite unhappy. 

Now, I'm not denying that the Chantry very obviously committed lots of antrocities the GWs didn't, and for clearly less tolerable reasons. But the parallels are there, and Bioware just doesn't care.

That was, again, my main point.

Xilizhra wrote...
Then DAO was an error for you, that I hardly think you'd want to see repeated in DA3.

I don't. But it's a Bioware game. Being railroaded into views and ideas I don't want is like a staple of their games. I get that some of Bioware's fans fluked into games that didn't do this for them, but for me, it's pretty much always been this.

And I want to campaign for this to hopefully show that it should.

I'm not against you doing it, but I happen to think it's a lost cause.

It's something along the lines of "you're not helping," or "go away, I want to be alone."

How is that at all rude? Your mom just died! To me, it seems to be the perfectly natural reaction. It's a pathetic lashing out by what is - really  - a completely powerless individual!

[LobselVith8]

Preston9000 wrote...

Um IDK. Maybe some of them are pissed that they don't do anything about the fact that organized religion, well, exists irl and want to use in-game religion as a stand in?

By wanting to be atheist about a fictional religion? I'm pretty sure people are free to be atheist in real life if they don't believe in any gods or a higher power. You don't need a game to accomplish that. Some of us simply don't agree with the Chantry, specifically. Given what happened to the elves and the mages, I don't find any entertainment value in the prospect of working for them in Inquisition (which is a hypothetical at the moment).

[Xilizhra]

By your logic, she should have shut up for fear of offending Hawke. He is grieving, the last thing he needs is a religious debate.
Since when can't you date someone that follows a different religion? Altough I don't romance Merril, I don't see why a devout Andrastian couldn't like her for reasons other than her elven heritage.

If someone's religion will actually be offensive in that manner, than don't romance them.

The problem with what you said is that you want to disagree with a religious organization, but refuse to accept that religious organization as equivalent to another organization, that, just like that religious organization, employs very questionable, and some might say wrong tactics to acheive their goals.

Then advocate to oppose the Wardens. Do not try to stifle opposition to the Chantry; their power must be destroyed. In my own opinion, at least.

That elf didn't just kill rapists. That elf killed two dozen soldiers who were trying to get by by joining the military, doing their duty protecting the nobility, and subsequently got slaughtered by someone on a penchant for revenge.

It was a rescue mission. They were accessories to evil who chose to die in its service.

I'm not against you doing it, but I happen to think it's a lost cause.

If so, I'm not going to make it easy for Bioware.

[wright1978]

Aurora313 wrote...

I'm just amazing in-verse about the intolerance of atheism...

I know this is probably way off topic, but in the origin story, at least in the Human Noble, you can outright state that you don't believe in the whole 'Andrasta/Maker' thing, only to be heavily berated for doing so. There's also at Ostagar where you can refuse a blessing only to be called a heathen.

Having something like that bare a concequence on your character's interactions with the world.

It would actually be an interesting spin on the game if the character you play, or if a character that exists does have Antheist leanings, but serves the Chantry purely for their own selfish/ material reasons. IE - Monetary gain, paying off a debt.

Really liked that moment in Origins. As far as i'm concerned i want the freedom to be able to establish the religious views of the character i'm roleplaying.

[Uccio]

OP, I do not want to play a game where I am forced to work for the chantry.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
If someone's religion will actually be offensive in that manner, than don't romance them.

So, Merril can preach how much she wants to Hawke about the Elven Pantheon but if Hawke mentions the Maker, it is suddenly rude?

It was a rescue mission. They were accessories to evil who chose to die in its service.

They were innocent men working to feed their families who didn't participate in Vaughan's perversions and did not deserve to die.

[Wulfram]

In Exile wrote...

But no one is equating that. I am equating two things: (i) that being forced to be part of the order, Grey Wardens, is the same as being forced to be part of the order, Inquisition (i.e., insofar as you are forced into a group; and (ii) there are morally abhorent things done by the GWs and morally abhorent things done by the Inqusition, that would make a player quite unhappy. 

In Origins proper, you're not really forced to be "part" of the grey wardens.  You have to drink the blood, 'cause Duncan would kill you otherwise, but you can then spend the rest of the game ignoring basically every Warden policy going.  You'll likely be enthusiastically take sides at every opportunity and then can conclude by taking a title in contradiction with Warden policy, or just dumping the whole Warden thing and leaving.

Though if you're including DAA, then that was a bit more problematic, yes.  It needs quite a bit of mental gymnastics to fit some Wardens in to going to become Warden-Commander and recruiting other Wardens.

[Xilizhra]

So, Merril can preach how much she wants to Hawke about the Elven Pantheon but if Hawke mentions the Maker, it is suddenly rude?

Merrill doesn't really preach, and certainly never tries to convert Hawke.
And I wasn't saying the Maker line was rude. I was saying telling her to go away was.

They were innocent men working to feed their families who didn't participate in Vaughan's perversions and did not deserve to die.

Well, plenty of them were rapists-to-be themselves, and as for the rest, it's redundant because no one deserves to die.

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Honestly, I believe this whole atheist thing spreads from the fact that these BSN guys may hold that belief in real life.

I'm pretty sure it has to do with the Chantry of Andraste. I've gone through Skyrim with a Dunmer mage who believed in the Tribunal, and with a Dunmer assassin who followed the Dread Father. I'm not opposed to religion; I'd love to play as a Dalish mage who followed the Creators and seeks to change the plight of the People. However, I strongly dislike the Chantry. There are others who feel the same way about the Chantry for a myriad of reasons.

Thinking the Chantry is a bad organization is simply that, nothing more. It simply means we strongly disagree with the Chantry, and that seems to often get conflated with people assuming that, because they hate one single fictional religion, then they must presumably hate all religion. That simply isn't true.

[Xilizhra]

But do you agree that they are equivalent? That's the real problem here, not whether or not I like the GWs: the fact that people are opposing an organization but dismissing others who oppose another for the same reasons

I wasn't talking about organizations to begin with. The Inquisition doesn't have to be Chantry-affiliated, but more importantly, I don't want my personal beliefs dictated.

That's very unfair. Do you apply that logic to anyone and everyone who witnesses their superiors crossing a line they shouldn't be crossing and don't speak for fear of repercussion? Like, say, the mages in DA ][ that witness--ah, what's his name--the Wounded Coast approach, where Thrask asks you to bring them out safely. None of the mages stop the one from doing blood magic. Do you feel they should be destroyed?

It's not a matter of whether the guards should die. I don't believe anyone deserves death. I'm saying they had to die.

[MisterJB]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
Merrill doesn't really preach, and certainly never tries to convert Hawke. [/quote]
Neither does Hawke. [/quote]
[quote]And I wasn't saying the Maker line was rude. I was saying telling her to go away was. [/quote]
My mistake then.

[quote]Well, plenty of them were rapists-to-be themselves, and as for the rest, it's redundant because no one deserves to die. [/quote]
How many guards come to get the elven females? Two, three? There were many more there who didn't give any indication of wanting to do anything other than get to the end of their shift without being gutted by angry elves they did not wrong.
Lots of people deserve to die. Vaughan deserved to die, for instance.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 octobre 2012 - 03:13 .

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
It was a rescue mission. They were accessories to evil who chose to die in its service.

It was more than that. It was a chance to strike a blow at a bunch of xenophotic enablers of rape. Just look at what they were trying to do if the PC was female (or, alternatively, when you bust in on them talking over the poor dead kidnapped elf woman, and one jokes about sleeping with her corpse).

If so, I'm not going to make it easy for Bioware.

Keep fighting the good fight! Someone has to. Even if all it gets is is... (shudder) ... the extended cut. 

Modifié par In Exile, 22 octobre 2012 - 03:14 .

[fchopin]

I don’t want to be playing an Antheism but i want more than one choice in the game.

[chuckles471]

Demons, spirits, the fade and magic. Not much of a push to believe in a higher power so it really wouldn't bother me as atheist.

Real world, religon just ate up my sundays as a child. One seventh of my childhood wasted.
Edit: Anthesist, I should really pay attention.  My bad.

Modifié par chuckles471, 22 octobre 2012 - 03:21 .

[In Exile]

Wulfram wrote...
In Origins proper, you're not really forced to be "part" of the grey wardens.  You have to drink the blood, 'cause Duncan would kill you otherwise, but you can then spend the rest of the game ignoring basically every Warden policy going.

Not really. The game calls on you as being a GW (or NPCs do), but you don't get a real answer there - the best example is at the Dalish camp, when Tuvok tells you that you should have mentioend you were a G&W from the start. You don't get a "no!", which is kind of like the Grand Cleric saying she's happy to find out you're a devout Andrastian.

Wynne's discussion is the same - it's a long conversation about what being a GW means to you; the line "Having a kidnapper look at my mother craddling the soon-to-be corpose of my father as he conscripts me in military service and leaves my parents to die" isn't an option.  

Though if you're including DAA, then that was a bit more problematic, yes.  It needs quite a bit of mental gymnastics to fit some Wardens in to going to become Warden-Commander and recruiting other Wardens.

Yeah, I just gave up on my characters at that point, rectonned one, and moved on with my life, sadly.