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[Zobo]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Read: the post I quoted said atheism, not "lack of worship of the Maker specifically."

If someone said the sun was a god, atheism wouldn't be saying "the sun doesn't exist," but "the sun isn't a god." It's the same with archdemons.

The author of that post was speaking, I am sure, of atheism in the classical sense that "there is no god, deity, or higher power in existence or authority anywhere."

You can say a Tevinter archmage is a higher power in a sence. Doesn't make him/her a god. Absolutely same thing with archdemons.

[LobselVith8]

BouncyFrag wrote...

In a land of magic that has archdemons imbued with the souls of a fallen god, I'd liken being an atheist in Thedas to being a physicist in the real world who doesn't believe in gravity.

Scholars have addressed that the Old Gods may simply be ancient dragons. Simply because they are called "Old Gods" does not make them literal gods. Your final statement is also disingenous. Thedas is a world with magic, but it doesn't mean it was created through intelligent design. I don't see why a world with magic should prevent the protagonist from being an atheist. Morrigan explains why this isn't the case in her debate with Leliana:

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

I think it's disingenuous of you to say that magic requires everyone to believe in a higher power. Morrigan easily addresses the kind of mindset I have when I see this kind of argument being put forth:

Leliana: How can someone who practices magic have so little capacity to believe in that which she cannot see?

Morrigan: Magic is real. I can touch it and command it and I need no faith for it to fill me up inside. If you are looking for your higher power, there it is.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 23 octobre 2012 - 03:56 .

[Fallstar]

When someone says "Higher power" I think of the god(s) described by most major religions. Absolute power and knowledge, eternal, creator etc.

Whilst there's certainly more to the old gods than your average high dragon (if you can call a high dragon average...) I wouldn't call them higher powers. Otherwise, where do you draw the line? Would a particularly powerful blood mage, who was perhaps also a somniari, also qualify as a higher power? Would Barack Obama qualify as a higher power?

Atheism in the sense of not believing in that classic description of a deity is perfectly possible in a high magic setting.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Read: the post I quoted said atheism, not "lack of worship of the Maker specifically."

If someone said the sun was a god, atheism wouldn't be saying "the sun doesn't exist," but "the sun isn't a god." It's the same with archdemons.

The author of that post was speaking, I am sure, of atheism in the classical sense that "there is no god, deity, or higher power in existence or authority anywhere."

That's antitheism. Plain atheism is just "I have no active belief in a god/higher power," not necessarily declaring that none exists.

You're comparing apples with granny smith apples. If you don't believe in a higher power, you'll declare that none exists. If you believe none exist, you'll have no belief in them.

Atheism can exist just fine in a fantasy setting, true -- but that's not how David Gaider has written Dragon Age. There are many deities, and the people of Thedas typically revere one or more of them. They've had no age of reasoning, and instead experience enough outside their realm of understanding to make the worship of a higher power seem plausible. That's just where they're at. Someone like Morrigan, (who actually expresses distain for the Maker rather than a belief in no higher power), is going to be pretty rare and special (which, duh - it's Morrigan).

"Maybe there are no gods." just isn't a thought that often crosses people's minds. We don't have to love that idea, but that's the world David Gaider is written - we can't argue that away no matter how great our arguments are.

He's giving players the chance to express doubt in a higher power and disapproval of the Chantry, but that doesn't seem to be what he intended as part of the lore, and our protagonist will still probably be rather alone in having those doubts.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:16 .

[Xilizhra]

You're comparing apples with granny smith apples. If you don't believe in a higher power, you'll declare that none exists. If you believe none exist, you'll have no belief in them.

I don't believe in a higher power, but I won't declare that none exist. I just don't see any evidence for any now. That doesn't mean I can't later accpet evidence.

Atheism can exist just fine in a fantasy setting, true -- but that's not how David Gaider has written Dragon Age. There are many deities, and the people of Thedas typically revere one or more of them. They've had no age of reasoning, and instead experience enough outside their realm of understanding to make the worship of a higher power seem plausible. That's just where they're at. Someone like Morrigan, (who actually expresses distain for the Maker rather than a belief in no higher power), is going to be pretty rare and special (which, duh - it's Morrigan).

And so can the PC, because... it's the PC, they're rare and special by default.

He's giving players the chance to express doubt in a higher power and disapproval of the Chantry, but that doesn't seem to be what he intended as part of the lore, and our protagonist will still probably be rather alone in having those doubts.

It fit well enough in the lore in DAO, it shall do so again in DA3, and differing from other people in this area will not harm anything about the game whatsoever for anyone, but will only enhance it for me and others such as myself.

[SeptimusMagistos]

brushyourteeth wrote...

He's giving players the chance to express doubt in a higher power and disapproval of the Chantry, but that doesn't seem to be what he intended as part of the lore, and our protagonist will still probably be rather alone in having those doubts.

That's fine. Atheists can be rare. I just want a chance to be one of them.

[LobselVith8]

brushyourteeth wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

In a land of magic that has archdemons imbued with the souls of a fallen god, I'd liken being an atheist in Thedas to being a physicist in the real world who doesn't believe in gravity.

LOL. That certainly seems to be the way David Gaider intends it.

+1 for the fact that you seem to understand that better than 3/4 of the BSN.

Except that line of reasoning doesn't make any sense. There is nothing to suggest that the Old Gods are literally gods, and even the codex on them addresses that some scholars view them as simply very old dragons, so why does their existance prove that gods literally exist?

Thedas is a world where people have faith in gods they can't literally see, in contrast to the world of the Elder Scrolls. I don't see why atheism shouldn't exist in the world of Thedas. Tell me, brushyourteeth, why should 3/4 of the BSN adopt a way of thinking that doesn't make sense?

[Raikas]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

In a land of magic that has archdemons imbued with the souls of a fallen god, I'd liken being an atheist in Thedas to being a physicist in the real world who doesn't believe in gravity.

Scholars have addressed that the Old Gods may simply be ancient dragons. Simply because they are called "Old Gods" does not make them literal gods. Your final statement is also disingenous. Thedas is a world with magic, but it doesn't mean it was created through intelligent design. I don't see why a world with magic should prevent the protagonist from being an atheist.

One of the things that I think has the potential to be really interesting about  Thedas is exactly this - we potentially have a universe where the gods are real in the sense that they exist (whether physically or just in the Fade or on some other spiritual level) but not necessarily in the sense that the various in-universe religions present them.  I think "non-religious" works better than "atheist" in that context, but the presentation would be the same.

Going back to the OP:

Dasher1010 wrote...

Like if you're the inquisitor it's pretty obvious that your job is to bring the Circle adn Templars back under Chantry control. I think that kind of means that the PC worships Andraste

I think it's possible to have a non-religious character who works for the Chantry because they want to be a part of the organized power structure that it represents rather than because they have a strong faith in Andraste/the Maker.   Having the ability to play it either way (a faith-driven PC vs. a power-driven PC) would certainly give us the potential to have some interesting story/character differences in different playthroughs.

Modifié par Hervoyl, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:32 .

[brushyourteeth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

In a land of magic that has archdemons imbued with the souls of a fallen god, I'd liken being an atheist in Thedas to being a physicist in the real world who doesn't believe in gravity.

LOL. That certainly seems to be the way David Gaider intends it.

+1 for the fact that you seem to understand that better than 3/4 of the BSN.

Except that line of reasoning doesn't make any sense. There is nothing to suggest that the Old Gods are literally gods, and even the codex on them addresses that some scholars view them as simply very old dragons, so why does their existance prove that gods literally exist?

Thedas is a world where people have faith in gods they can't literally see, in contrast to the world of the Elder Scrolls. I don't see why atheism shouldn't exist in the world of Thedas. Tell me, brushyourteeth, why should 3/4 of the BSN adopt a way of thinking that doesn't make sense?

It doesn't prove that gods exist at all. But the fact simply remains that the people of Thedas think they do (whether Old Gods or no).

Their reasons might be stupid, supersticious, or false. But they believe them.

And for the answer to why atheism shouldn't exist in Thedas, you'd have to ask Mr. Gaider. I suspect it's because he finds it interesting to write characters who are in the medieval mindset of taking the existence of god for granted - and because, as in classic D&D roleplaying, it's often more interesting to write a character that identifies with one or another deity as part of fleshing out that character. Maybe he's always had plans for an Age of Reasoning to spontaneously occur further down the line and we're simply jumping the gun like kids who want their candy now. Those are all just ideas.

You're saying "It should be because..."
I'm saying "It just isn't. Understanding the why is a worthy question, but it still won't change the answer."

[Xilizhra]

And for the answer to why atheism shouldn't exist in Thedas, you'd have to ask Mr. Gaider. I suspect it's because he finds it interesting to write characters who are in the medieval mindset of taking the existence of god for granted - and because, as in classic D&D roleplaying, it's often more interesting to write a character that identifies with one or another deity as part of fleshing out that character. Maybe he's always had plans for an Age of Reasoning to spontaneously occur further down the line and we're simply jumping the gun like kids who want their candy now. Those are all just ideas.

Gaider decided that atheism here, at least in a light form, can work within the lore after all. Presumably our arguments gave him more reason to think about it and see how a new idea might work: a triumph of early feedback, unless he was planning on doing so already and just misspoke in that earlier thread. In which case everything's still fine.

You're saying "It should be because..."
I'm saying "It just isn't. Understanding the why is a worthy question, but it still won't change the answer."

But the answer has changed. Either that or it was always satisfactory to begin with.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

And for the answer to why atheism shouldn't exist in Thedas, you'd have to ask Mr. Gaider. I suspect it's because he finds it interesting to write characters who are in the medieval mindset of taking the existence of god for granted - and because, as in classic D&D roleplaying, it's often more interesting to write a character that identifies with one or another deity as part of fleshing out that character. Maybe he's always had plans for an Age of Reasoning to spontaneously occur further down the line and we're simply jumping the gun like kids who want their candy now. Those are all just ideas.

Gaider decided that atheism here, at least in a light form, can work within the lore after all. Presumably our arguments gave him more reason to think about it and see how a new idea might work: a triumph of early feedback, unless he was planning on doing so already and just misspoke in that earlier thread. In which case everything's still fine.

You're saying "It should be because..."
I'm saying "It just isn't. Understanding the why is a worthy question, but it still won't change the answer."

But the answer has changed. Either that or it was always satisfactory to begin with.

Yeah, he's making that concession for the protagonist because he realizes his medium is gameplay, and it was really generous of him to do that. I still doubt it's going to change anything besides the options we get in our own dialogue -- the world itself will remain largely religious.

It's still worth noting that if you or I wrote a novel and fans came back to us complaining that the characters were too religious or not religious enough, we'd tell them to STFU, because it's our story to tell - not theirs to change. His adjustments on that level were pretty gracious - especially since the comments toward him on that point weren't always kind or rational.

[NedPepper]

David Gaider wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
Read up (or on the previous page), dragon. Gaider said we would not have to.

What I said should also come with a caveat, of course: some people (like Lobselvith) make a habit out of seeing connections that aren't made explicit. A perceived tone in the way Leliana said something in DA2 meant she was "rabidly anti-mage", or their character merely using the word "Maker" in the same way one of us might say "Oh God!" meant they were being forced to become religious zealots.

As much as we intend to provide choice and give the player freedom to determine their personality/beliefs, I have no doubt that such people will continue to see such connections and rage about them-- and we're not going to go to the heroic lengths it would require to make sure those connections can't be perceived as such. So expect this to happen, regardless of what we say or write.

I know it'd be like you doing self promotion, so I'll do it for you.

People should read Asunder.  The protagonists of that book are all over the place from a philisophical standpoint in a wonderful way.  It works.  I'm not sure if Asunder is tied into this game, although it should be. When I think about Dragon Age 3, I think about Wynne, Evangeline, Rhys, Shale, Fiona, the tempermental little red head mage whose name I'm forgetting, the head of the Seekers, Cole...there are so many different takes on mages and philosphy and the Maker.  (BTW...Leliana is PRO MAGE.  So is Dorethea.  Why do you think Leliana is protecting her.  That's where the conflict comes from with the Seekers and the Templars.) 

That said, I'm pretty sure this knee jerk reaction from some people is baseless and unimformed.  Gaider has SHOWN us how this can work.  Read Asunder.

EDIT:  One last thing:  These MAGES and TEMPLARS (and one cranky Golem and a weird demon thing) are working for peace coming from both the Empress and the Chantry.  Because everyone knows that if there is a war between the mages and the templars, the world is in big trouble.  Which is basically what happens....

Modifié par nedpepper, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:49 .

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, he's making that concession for the protagonist because he realizes his medium is gameplay, and it was really generous of him to do that. I still doubt it's going to change anything besides the options we get in our own dialogue -- the world itself will remain largely religious.

And that's totally fine. It was my own character I wanted control of for this matter, I didn't need to have it over anyone else.

It's still worth noting that if you or I wrote a novel and fans came back to us complaining that the characters were too religious or not religious enough, we'd tell them to STFU, because it's our story to tell - not theirs to change. His adjustments on that level were pretty gracious - especially since the comments toward him on that point weren't always kind or rational.

Well, Sherlock Holmes was outright brought back to life. It varies depending on the situation. And all we asked for was a way to define our own character, not anyone else's. Certainly it was good of him to agree on that.

(BTW...Leliana is PRO MAGE.  So is Dorethea.  Why do you think Leliana
is protecting her.  That's where the conflict comes from with the
Seekers and the Templars.)

They're not rabidly anti-mage like the Templar Order. That doesn't make them pro-mage unless they're willing to surrender Chantry control.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:48 .

[LobselVith8]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Atheism can exist just fine in a fantasy setting, true -- but that's not how David Gaider has written Dragon Age. There are many deities, and the people of Thedas typically revere one or more of them.

You're confusing Dragon Age with the Elder Scrolls. There are no literal gods in Thedas that we know about. The Andrastians only worship the Maker, while the Dalish worship the Creators, and the Dwarves have the Stone. As the Cousland protagonist can say he doesn't believe in the Maker, why should that be discarded? I don't see why it should be assumed that the Cousland must believe in a higher power, when Andrastian society has exposed people to only one single god: the Maker. The same is true for the Surana Warden, who may come from Lothering or the Denerim Alienage, when he dismisses the idea of the Maker being his god to the priest of Andraste, and can tell Justice that he doesn't believe in the Maker.

brushyourteeth wrote...

They've had no age of reasoning, and instead experience enough outside their realm of understanding to make the worship of a higher power seem plausible. That's just where they're at. Someone like Morrigan, (who actually expresses distain for the Maker rather than a belief in no higher power), is going to be pretty rare and special (which, duh - it's Morrigan).

What Morrigan explicitly says (in her conversation with Leliana):

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

I'm not going to debate Morrigan's dialogue (because Morrigan's beliefs have nothing to do with the protagonist being atheist), but that's specifically what she said in Origins.

I can imagine it would be fairly easy for an elven mage to believe there isn't a god or a higher power when the homeland of his people was sacked because they wouldn't convert to the human religion, and people like him (mages) are imprisoned in the name of the human god. Why must it be necessary for this person to believe in a higher power? I see no reason why the Surana Warden must believe in a higher power.

brushyourteeth wrote...

"Maybe there are no gods." just isn't a thought that often crosses people's minds. We don't have to love that idea, but that's the world David Gaider is written - we can't argue that away no matter how great our arguments are.

Gaider couldn't even remember that there were atheist dialogue options in Origins and Awakening, and he conceded the point that there were atheist dialogue options for the protagonist when players pointed out to him that the options had been made available. He also said in a later thread (by Xil) that fans remembered better than he did because the original game was written so long ago.

brushyourteeth wrote...

He's giving players the chance to express doubt in a higher power and disapproval of the Chantry, but that doesn't seem to be what he intended as part of the lore, and our protagonist will still probably be rather alone in having those doubts.

It was already part of the lore for some people to believe there isn't a higher power. The Surana Warden could express that he didn't believe in the Maker, condemn the Chantry for marching on the Dales because the elves didn't convert to the Andrastian faith, inform Leliana that he believes Andraste was only a woman and not a divine person, and inform Justice that faith in the Maker is a "foolish superstition."

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...


They're not rabidly anti-mage like the Templar Order. That doesn't make them pro-mage unless they're willing to surrender Chantry control.

Even if they weren't pro-mage (which I don't know, since I didn't read Asunder) this wouldn't mean that they are anti-mage. It's not like the world in Thedas is divided in anti-mage and pro-mage.
It's possible that we, as the PC, will not have a choice in the matter, and we'll have to choose between pro-mage and anti-mage, but that doesn't mean the people on Thedas have to.

[LobselVith8]

brushyourteeth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except that line of reasoning doesn't make any sense. There is nothing to suggest that the Old Gods are literally gods, and even the codex on them addresses that some scholars view them as simply very old dragons, so why does their existance prove that gods literally exist?

Thedas is a world where people have faith in gods they can't literally see, in contrast to the world of the Elder Scrolls. I don't see why atheism shouldn't exist in the world of Thedas. Tell me, brushyourteeth, why should 3/4 of the BSN adopt a way of thinking that doesn't make sense? 

It doesn't prove that gods exist at all. But the fact simply remains that the people of Thedas think they do (whether Old Gods or no).

Their reasons might be stupid, supersticious, or false. But they believe them.

Not everyone. According to the codex entry on the Old Gods, "Scholars assume that the Old Gods must indeed have been real at one point, but most agree that they were likely actual dragons--ancient high dragons of a magnitude not known today, and impressive enough to frighten ancient peoples into worshipping them. Some even claim that these dragons slumber as a form of hibernation, not as a result of the Maker's wrath."

brushyourteeth wrote...

And for the answer to why atheism shouldn't exist in Thedas, you'd have to ask Mr. Gaider.

I don't have to ask Mr. Gaider, I played Origins, and the dialogue was avaliable for me to shape my Surana Warden as an atheist.

brushyourteeth wrote...

I suspect it's because he finds it interesting to write characters who are in the medieval mindset of taking the existence of god for granted - and because, as in classic D&D roleplaying, it's often more interesting to write a character that identifies with one or another deity as part of fleshing out that character. Maybe he's always had plans for an Age of Reasoning to spontaneously occur further down the line and we're simply jumping the gun like kids who want their candy now. Those are all just ideas.

You're saying "It should be because..."
I'm saying "It just isn't. Understanding the why is a worthy question, but it still won't change the answer."

No, I'm pointing out atheist options were already avaliable for The Warden, and I see no reason for them not to be avaliable for future protagonists.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...



It was already part of the lore for some people to believe there isn't a higher power. The Surana Warden could express that he didn't believe in the Maker, condemn the Chantry for marching on the Dales because the elves didn't convert to the Andrastian faith, inform Leliana that he believes Andraste was only a woman and not a divine person, and inform Justice that faith in the Maker is a "foolish superstition."

It's isn't part of the lore. The Warden is the PC, which is different from the NPC in Thedas, and in the codex (the only info in-game which could be considered for the lore) in both games his or her beliefs aren't expressed.
Mind you, I'm not saying that there aren't atheist in Thedas, but that the PC shouldn't be counted. as "some people" in the lore.

[Fallstar]

Magic in Thedas is more like a science than anything. It has rules - see the Cardinal rules of magic for example. Mages in Thedas extend the boundary of knowledge through research and careful study.

Magic does not come from gods in Thedas - it comes from mana or life.

So why do people think that just because there is a lot of magic in Thedas, that being an atheist is a rare thing?

[brushyourteeth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Atheism can exist just fine in a fantasy setting, true -- but that's not how David Gaider has written Dragon Age. There are many deities, and the people of Thedas typically revere one or more of them.

You're confusing Dragon Age with the Elder Scrolls. There are no literal gods in Thedas that we know about. The Andrastians only worship the Maker, while the Dalish worship the Creators, and the Dwarves have the Stone. As the Cousland protagonist can say he doesn't believe in the Maker, why should that be discarded? I don't see why it should be assumed that the Cousland must believe in a higher power, when Andrastian society has exposed people to only one single god: the Maker. The same is true for the Surana Warden, who may come from Lothering or the Denerim Alienage, when he dismisses the idea of the Maker being his god to the priest of Andraste, and can tell Justice that he doesn't believe in the Maker.

brushyourteeth wrote...

They've had no age of reasoning, and instead experience enough outside their realm of understanding to make the worship of a higher power seem plausible. That's just where they're at. Someone like Morrigan, (who actually expresses distain for the Maker rather than a belief in no higher power), is going to be pretty rare and special (which, duh - it's Morrigan).

What Morrigan explicitly says (in her conversation with Leliana):

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

I'm not going to debate Morrigan's dialogue (because Morrigan's beliefs have nothing to do with the protagonist being atheist), but that's specifically what she said in Origins.

I can imagine it would be fairly easy for an elven mage to believe there isn't a god or a higher power when the homeland of his people was sacked because they wouldn't convert to the human religion, and people like him (mages) are imprisoned in the name of the human god. Why must it be necessary for this person to believe in a higher power? I see no reason why the Surana Warden must believe in a higher power.

brushyourteeth wrote...

"Maybe there are no gods." just isn't a thought that often crosses people's minds. We don't have to love that idea, but that's the world David Gaider is written - we can't argue that away no matter how great our arguments are.

Gaider couldn't even remember that there were atheist dialogue options in Origins and Awakening, and he conceded the point that there were atheist dialogue options for the protagonist when players pointed out to him that the options had been made available. He also said in a later thread (by Xil) that fans remembered better than he did because the original game was written so long ago.

brushyourteeth wrote...

He's giving players the chance to express doubt in a higher power and disapproval of the Chantry, but that doesn't seem to be what he intended as part of the lore, and our protagonist will still probably be rather alone in having those doubts.

It was already part of the lore for some people to believe there isn't a higher power. The Surana Warden could express that he didn't believe in the Maker, condemn the Chantry for marching on the Dales because the elves didn't convert to the Andrastian faith, inform Leliana that he believes Andraste was only a woman and not a divine person, and inform Justice that faith in the Maker is a "foolish superstition."

Again, those are great things to bring up to Mr. Gaider (perhaps our modern-day thinking crept into the writing unintended, the same way it did with the supposed Thedas "gender equality"). But as it is, you're eventually going to have to get to a place where you can accept that the lore probably just won't be what you want it to be on this matter. We've all got our peeves - I understand that this one bothers you a lot. The protagonist will get the chance to be a skeptic, but if you're hoping for more than that you're likely just going to be disappointed.

... not because I want you to be (please understand that) - that's just not the world that David Gaider has said he intends to write.

*EDIT*, for absolutely not the word I intended to type  in line 1.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:07 .

[Xilizhra]

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...



It was already part of the lore for some people to believe there isn't a higher power. The Surana Warden could express that he didn't believe in the Maker, condemn the Chantry for marching on the Dales because the elves didn't convert to the Andrastian faith, inform Leliana that he believes Andraste was only a woman and not a divine person, and inform Justice that faith in the Maker is a "foolish superstition."

It's isn't part of the lore. The Warden is the PC, which is different from the NPC in Thedas, and in the codex (the only info in-game which could be considered for the lore) in both games his or her beliefs aren't expressed.
Mind you, I'm not saying that there aren't atheist in Thedas, but that the PC shouldn't be counted. as "some people" in the lore.

Do any codex entries say that there are no atheists in Thedas at all? With the lack of that, combined with the PC's ability to speak, plus Morrigan, we can conclude that some possibilities for it exist in the world.

[Xilizhra]

Again, those are great things to bring up to Mr. Gaider (perhaps our modern-day creeping crept into the writing unintended, the same way it did with the supposed Thedas "gender equality"). But as it is, you're eventually going to have to get to a place where you can accept that the lore probably just won't be what you want it to be on this matter. We've all got our peeves - I understand that this one bothers you a lot. The protagonist will get the chance to be a skeptic, but if you're hoping for more than that you're likely just going to be disappointed.

Skepticism is all we needed. What are you still worried about on this point? And while we may not be able to crush the Chantry completely, I suspect we'll be able to render them powerless and the templars utterly defeated, so that works out too.

... not because I want you to be (please understand that) - that's just not the world that David Gaider has said he intends to write.

And he's changed his mind.

[Medhia Nox]

Everyone believes in something.

An atheist just believes that what they want is the most important of all.

Making Morrigan the perfect version of a modern atheist.

There's no reason they can't exist in Thedas.

But I was never under the delusion that the game was force you to be a religious person. That would be very anti-hipster and bad for business. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:06 .

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It was already part of the lore for some people to believe there isn't a higher power. The Surana Warden could express that he didn't believe in the Maker, condemn the Chantry for marching on the Dales because the elves didn't convert to the Andrastian faith, inform Leliana that he believes Andraste was only a woman and not a divine person, and inform Justice that faith in the Maker is a "foolish superstition."

It's isn't part of the lore. The Warden is the PC, which is different from the NPC in Thedas, and in the codex (the only info in-game which could be considered for the lore) in both games his or her beliefs aren't expressed.
Mind you, I'm not saying that there aren't atheist in Thedas, but that the PC shouldn't be counted. as "some people" in the lore. 

The protagonist is part of the world of Thedas. His existance is mentioned in the codex entry in Dragon Age II; The Warden is literally part of the lore that Hawke can read about. Also, Gaider already conceded that it was previously avaliable in Origins:

David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Probably because they could say things like "I've told you before I don't believe in the Maker" in the HN origin 

If that was in there, then so be it. There wasn't intended to be an option to express atheism. And there certainly won't be again. 

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

Again, those are great things to bring up to Mr. Gaider (perhaps our modern-day creeping crept into the writing unintended, the same way it did with the supposed Thedas "gender equality"). But as it is, you're eventually going to have to get to a place where you can accept that the lore probably just won't be what you want it to be on this matter. We've all got our peeves - I understand that this one bothers you a lot. The protagonist will get the chance to be a skeptic, but if you're hoping for more than that you're likely just going to be disappointed.

Skepticism is all we needed. What are you still worried about on this point? And while we may not be able to crush the Chantry completely, I suspect we'll be able to render them powerless and the templars utterly defeated, so that works out too.

... not because I want you to be (please understand that) - that's just not the world that David Gaider has said he intends to write.

And he's changed his mind.

I'm speaking to LobselVith8, who seems to still be upset that atheism isn't "a thing" in Thedas.

[Abraham_uk]

Dasher1010 wrote...

Like if you're the inquisitor it's pretty obvious that your job is to bring the Circle adn Templars back under Chantry control. I think that kind of means that the PC worships Andraste

Why do people who aren't Christian help out with the Salvation Army?
Why do people who aren't Muslim help with Muslim Charities?
Why are there so many non Christian teachers at Christian schools?
Where are there so many no Buddists who help organise Buddist retreats?


Maybe, just maybe, there is something about those organisations other than religious ethos that attracts people to join in.


The Chantry isn't just about worship of Andraste.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:10 .