320 réponses à ce sujet

[Twisted Path]

A good example of a ethnic diversity done well in a fantasy setting is Steven Erikson's Malazan books. Two of the main protagonists in the early books are black guys from a middle eastern/fantasy North-Africa-style region and they avoid falling into any stereotypes. You also spend a lot of the first few books following a group of soldiers around, then when you learn more about their personal backgrounds it turns out that most of them are from an area that's obviously meant to be fantasy-China. I thought that was a nice touch.

Erikson's an archeologist with a wide knowledge and love for lots of different ancient cultures and it really shows in his books, which span a very big world full of very different ethnic groups, nations and cultures (and that's just the humans...)

I don't know if that sort of thing could be pulled off in the Dragon Age setting though, since everything so far has taken place in a medieval European setting.

[Nashimura]

Palipride47 wrote...

Nashimura wrote...

I did not know there was a "culture which is predominantly black" in Dragon Age, which is it?

The consensus is that the Rivaini are the "dark skinned" people of Andrastian Thedas. Dark Skinned vs. Black is a WHOLE OTHER DEBATE. 

Also, the Thedosian landscape turns more "jungle-like" as you go North, so is it kind of being assumed you'll find "black people" farther north (even though "black" is a social construct in itself)

Rivaini was my first thought too but i also read its based on spain - i could never call the spanish black. 

[Palipride47]

Nashimura wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Nashimura wrote...

I did not know there was a "culture which is predominantly black" in Dragon Age, which is it?

The consensus is that the Rivaini are the "dark skinned" people of Andrastian Thedas. Dark Skinned vs. Black is a WHOLE OTHER DEBATE. 

Also, the Thedosian landscape turns more "jungle-like" as you go North, so is it kind of being assumed you'll find "black people" farther north (even though "black" is a social construct in itself)

Rivaini was my first thought too but i also read its based on spain - i could never call the spanish black. 

Hence the many, MANY problems and arguments that could go either way.

I'm white, my niece is black, my grandfather is Middle Eastern.

Yet, my grandfather is the "darkest" among us, and my (adopted) niece is half Swedish/ half Nigerian. But in America, she is considered black (one drop rule)

I'm white as (white) rice, but have more "Middle Eastern" in my blood than anything else. One of my cousins with two Arab parents has a lighter hair color than me (his is light brown, mine is almost black) and has blue eyes (I have green eyes, but my father was Anglo-Something).

Race is complicated, mostly because it is meaningless as a word. 

Modifié par Palipride47, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:52 .

[Palipride47]

Twisted Path wrote...

A good example of a ethnic diversity done well in a fantasy setting is Steven Erikson's Malazan books. Two of the main protagonists in the early books are black guys from a middle eastern/fantasy North-Africa-style region and they avoid falling into any stereotypes. You also spend a lot of the first few books following a group of soldiers around, then when you learn more about their personal backgrounds it turns out that most of them are from an area that's obviously meant to be fantasy-China. I thought that was a nice touch.

Erikson's an archeologist with a wide knowledge and love for lots of different ancient cultures and it really shows in his books, which span a very big world full of very different ethnic groups, nations and cultures (and that's just the humans...)

I don't know if that sort of thing could be pulled off in the Dragon Age setting though, since everything so far has taken place in a medieval European setting.

Oh, sounds awesome! I might read those books then!

The Qunari are from somewhere else (not Thedas), so we could have some fantasy-China (maybe why Qunari have gunpowder in the first place) 

And since the Qunari could be referred to as "the Muslims of Thedas" (in terms of technological gap with Andrastian nations, and the Exalted Marches...)

But for fantasy, that sounds awfully like the real world! (I jest ) 

[ziloe]

Palipride47 wrote...

Twisted Path wrote...

A good example of a ethnic diversity done well in a fantasy setting is Steven Erikson's Malazan books. Two of the main protagonists in the early books are black guys from a middle eastern/fantasy North-Africa-style region and they avoid falling into any stereotypes. You also spend a lot of the first few books following a group of soldiers around, then when you learn more about their personal backgrounds it turns out that most of them are from an area that's obviously meant to be fantasy-China. I thought that was a nice touch.

Erikson's an archeologist with a wide knowledge and love for lots of different ancient cultures and it really shows in his books, which span a very big world full of very different ethnic groups, nations and cultures (and that's just the humans...)

I don't know if that sort of thing could be pulled off in the Dragon Age setting though, since everything so far has taken place in a medieval European setting.

Oh, sounds awesome! I might read those books then!

The Qunari are from somewhere else (not Thedas), so we could have some fantasy-China (maybe why Qunari have gunpowder in the first place) 

And since the Qunari could be referred to as "the Muslims of Thedas" (in terms of technological gap with Andrastian nations, and the Exalted Marches...)

But for fantasy, that sounds awfully like the real world! (I jest ) 

I like that whole gunpowder idea.

[Pauravi]

FreshIstay wrote...

Correct me if Im wrong, but you seem to be implying that Human's in Thedas should only come in one skin color. or Darker Skinned People are not Human In Thedas.

Whoa whoa, nooooooooo.  Perhaps I should have used the phrase "regional phenotypes" instead of "races", but stop it with the jumping to racism conclusions.  I am officially correcting you.

In debate, the root of the problem with the "strawman" argument is that it fails to treat the person you're conversing with as a reasonable or respectable individual.  This leads to the other person getting upset and feeling the need to defend themselves as a person instead of discussing the topic at hand.  If you want to contribute to a productive discussion, I'd suggest being a bit more charitable with your interpretations of other people's words.  But hey, if you just want to troll people into fruitless arguments, by all means keep at it.

[AlexanderCousland]

[quote]Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Jacob is a african-american. There is no such thing in Dragon Age universe. And putting it in, just for the sake of being in there is waste of resources.[/quote]


[quote]Pauravi wrote...

I agree with you there. Thedas has its own races. Add them where appropriate.

[/quote]


Correct me if Im wrong, but you seem to be implying that Human's in Thedas should only come in one skin color. or Darker Skinned People are not Human In Thedas. Duncan and Isabela are pretty good character's, and I find it distasteful that you can find it within yourself to actually determine wether or not the inclusion of darker skinned individual's is "appropriate". Im certainly glad you all dont make final descions.
[/quote]

[quote]Pauravi wrote...


In debate, the root of the problem with the "strawman" argument is that it fails to treat the person you're conversing with as a reasonable or respectable individual.  This leads to the other person getting upset and feeling the need to defend themselves as a person instead of discussing the topic at hand.  If you want to contribute to a productive discussion, I'd suggest being a bit more charitable with your interpretations of other people's words.  But hey, if you just want to troll people into fruitless arguments, by all means keep at it.
[/quote]

You certainly shouldn't be offended, I have not called you a racist.  Also, If you wish to Quote Me, you should probably include your own quote's which I was responding to. I dont think anyone here is defending themselves as a person, but what we are doing here, Sir, Is asking for a wider range of diversity in Video Games. It seems to be a very productive topic, as I have introduced some people (those who were unaware)  to a video of Mr. Gaider's participation in a Race Bending panel, which seems to have opened some eyes as to Rivani being considered Black, and a concerted effort by the Lead writer to make ALL people's feel included in the Dragon Age Series.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:14 .

[AlexanderCousland]

ugghh.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:44 .

[Ghrelt]

Now that you mention it, I do think it would be neat to see a fantasy setting where black people are, as a rule, the elite, well-educated rich. It would be nice to see the stereotype turned on it's ear.

[Icesong]

Ellythe wrote...

Now that you mention it, I do think it would be neat to see a fantasy setting where black people are, as a rule, the elite, well-educated rich. It would be nice to see the stereotype turned on it's ear.

Save the Pearls.

Ho ha ho.

[Ghrelt]

I don't mean the ruling elite class. I just meant that by-and-large, they would be well-off and well-educated. I had to google "Save the Pearls". Ugh. No, not that.

[Palipride47]

Icesong wrote...

Ellythe wrote...

Now that you mention it, I do think it would be neat to see a fantasy setting where black people are, as a rule, the elite, well-educated rich. It would be nice to see the stereotype turned on it's ear.

Save the Pearls.

Ho ha ho.

Oh my god, I just looked that up, and now I am so very sad.

[Shadow Fox]

David Gaider wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
Well, speaking from the PoV of a person of mixed descent(at least in the sense of modern ethnicities, ignoring the fact that many older ethnic groups are now merged together into these much broader categories), I suppose I'm a full on example of a person whose "race" is not really represented much either in video gaming(half-"insert non-human race here" exists, but I don't think that can be considered a legitimate replacement any more than elf for Asians, or dwarves for Hispanics). I can honestly say I've never been bothered by it, or by race in general and it simply doesn't occur to me to question whether the absence of explicitly mixed-race characters is somehow racist. I would also observe that Asians, Hispanics, and Native Americans are represented even less frequently than Blacks in quite a few gaming genres from my personal experience. People don't often seem to request additional characters of those races. Not saying that there's anything wrong with such requests, just stating my observations.

Completely fair. I'm not saying you *should* feel that way, but obviously some do... and it'd be pretty presumptuous of someone who's already part of a group that is well-represented to say they shouldn't. In this particular case, a culture which is predominantly black is already part of Thedas... so it's hardly beyond the pale to ask that we see more representatives of that culture, or that they be slightly more conspicuous than "tan" (which, as we've said, was a limitation of the engine).

With regards to Asians or other ethnicities, those can be a little harder to justify if they aren't represented by a culture on the Thedas continent... but that certainly shouldn't prevent lone travelers from faraway lands from appearing, or even a follower (especially a follower, perhaps, as they get to be all sorts of special snowflakes). That could be kind of cool, and certainly there's no harm in the asking.

At the risk of sounding racially insensitive I'll ask why is it harder to justify adding Latin or Asian looking characters than blacks?

[Icesong]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
Well, speaking from the PoV of a person of mixed descent(at least in the sense of modern ethnicities, ignoring the fact that many older ethnic groups are now merged together into these much broader categories), I suppose I'm a full on example of a person whose "race" is not really represented much either in video gaming(half-"insert non-human race here" exists, but I don't think that can be considered a legitimate replacement any more than elf for Asians, or dwarves for Hispanics). I can honestly say I've never been bothered by it, or by race in general and it simply doesn't occur to me to question whether the absence of explicitly mixed-race characters is somehow racist. I would also observe that Asians, Hispanics, and Native Americans are represented even less frequently than Blacks in quite a few gaming genres from my personal experience. People don't often seem to request additional characters of those races. Not saying that there's anything wrong with such requests, just stating my observations.

Completely fair. I'm not saying you *should* feel that way, but obviously some do... and it'd be pretty presumptuous of someone who's already part of a group that is well-represented to say they shouldn't. In this particular case, a culture which is predominantly black is already part of Thedas... so it's hardly beyond the pale to ask that we see more representatives of that culture, or that they be slightly more conspicuous than "tan" (which, as we've said, was a limitation of the engine).

With regards to Asians or other ethnicities, those can be a little harder to justify if they aren't represented by a culture on the Thedas continent... but that certainly shouldn't prevent lone travelers from faraway lands from appearing, or even a follower (especially a follower, perhaps, as they get to be all sorts of special snowflakes). That could be kind of cool, and certainly there's no harm in the asking.

At the risk of sounding racially insensitive I'll ask why is it harder to justify adding Latin or Asian looking characters than blacks?

"[...]if they aren't represented by a culture on the Thedas continent [...]"

[Huntress]

Nashimura wrote...

I did not know there was a "culture which is predominantly black" in Dragon Age, which is it?

The Chasind Wilders they are dark colour and live in tribes in the Korcari Wilds, The warden meet few in lothering been  accused of stealing food., The people from Rivain seems to be dark colour aswell, one is Duncan the other Isabella.

[Palipride47]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
Well, speaking from the PoV of a person of mixed descent(at least in the sense of modern ethnicities, ignoring the fact that many older ethnic groups are now merged together into these much broader categories), I suppose I'm a full on example of a person whose "race" is not really represented much either in video gaming(half-"insert non-human race here" exists, but I don't think that can be considered a legitimate replacement any more than elf for Asians, or dwarves for Hispanics). I can honestly say I've never been bothered by it, or by race in general and it simply doesn't occur to me to question whether the absence of explicitly mixed-race characters is somehow racist. I would also observe that Asians, Hispanics, and Native Americans are represented even less frequently than Blacks in quite a few gaming genres from my personal experience. People don't often seem to request additional characters of those races. Not saying that there's anything wrong with such requests, just stating my observations.

Completely fair. I'm not saying you *should* feel that way, but obviously some do... and it'd be pretty presumptuous of someone who's already part of a group that is well-represented to say they shouldn't. In this particular case, a culture which is predominantly black is already part of Thedas... so it's hardly beyond the pale to ask that we see more representatives of that culture, or that they be slightly more conspicuous than "tan" (which, as we've said, was a limitation of the engine).

With regards to Asians or other ethnicities, those can be a little harder to justify if they aren't represented by a culture on the Thedas continent... but that certainly shouldn't prevent lone travelers from faraway lands from appearing, or even a follower (especially a follower, perhaps, as they get to be all sorts of special snowflakes). That could be kind of cool, and certainly there's no harm in the asking.

At the risk of sounding racially insensitive I'll ask why is it harder to justify adding Latin or Asian looking characters than blacks?

Because Fantasy Europe next to Fantasy Africa leaves no room for fantasy Native Americans or Fantasy Asians. 

Half of it is the medieval trope itself.

You get backed into a corner when you pull the Medieval Europe = Fantasy Universe trope (which has been pretty much the only fantasy setting, with some exceptions) and then you feel compelled to spit out more red heads than ebony skinned people. 

And because (as you've seen a few people on this thread state), we can't have black people without a reason, that means they "need a reason" for eveyone else. There needs to a Thedosian China and a Thedosian Mesoamerica. 

An you need to read the full comment:  those can be a little harder to justify if they aren't represented by a culture on the Thedas continent... but that certainly shouldn't prevent lone travelers from faraway lands from appearing, or even a follower (especially a follower, perhaps, as they get to be all sorts of special snowflakes). 

Modifié par Palipride47, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:11 .

[Shadow Fox]

Icesong wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
Well, speaking from the PoV of a person of mixed descent(at least in the sense of modern ethnicities, ignoring the fact that many older ethnic groups are now merged together into these much broader categories), I suppose I'm a full on example of a person whose "race" is not really represented much either in video gaming(half-"insert non-human race here" exists, but I don't think that can be considered a legitimate replacement any more than elf for Asians, or dwarves for Hispanics). I can honestly say I've never been bothered by it, or by race in general and it simply doesn't occur to me to question whether the absence of explicitly mixed-race characters is somehow racist. I would also observe that Asians, Hispanics, and Native Americans are represented even less frequently than Blacks in quite a few gaming genres from my personal experience. People don't often seem to request additional characters of those races. Not saying that there's anything wrong with such requests, just stating my observations.

Completely fair. I'm not saying you *should* feel that way, but obviously some do... and it'd be pretty presumptuous of someone who's already part of a group that is well-represented to say they shouldn't. In this particular case, a culture which is predominantly black is already part of Thedas... so it's hardly beyond the pale to ask that we see more representatives of that culture, or that they be slightly more conspicuous than "tan" (which, as we've said, was a limitation of the engine).

With regards to Asians or other ethnicities, those can be a little harder to justify if they aren't represented by a culture on the Thedas continent... but that certainly shouldn't prevent lone travelers from faraway lands from appearing, or even a follower (especially a follower, perhaps, as they get to be all sorts of special snowflakes). That could be kind of cool, and certainly there's no harm in the asking.

At the risk of sounding racially insensitive I'll ask why is it harder to justify adding Latin or Asian looking characters than blacks?

"[...]if they aren't represented by a culture on the Thedas continent [...]"

It's a game they  can make a culture that represents them.

If they're going to extend the effort to include one ethnic group they should do the same for others.

I say this as a white male gamer.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 24 octobre 2012 - 09:56 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

I don't think that's exactly fair.

What if the shoe was on the other foot, and a game you really liked was populated by nothing but black characters? You might be upset, or you might say "it's great that exists, but it's really not for me." And that'd be fine, as it would be a pretty unique game. But what if all such games had all-black casts, always? You don't think you would find yourself feeling thoughtlessly excluded and rendered invisible for no good reason? If your answer is no, I'd venture to say it's probably because you've never found yourself in that position.

That's a really good point.  I probably wouldn't enjoy an all-black game as much, because the characters I imagine are almost always white (occasionally Indian - I tend to play Indian characters in Sci-Fi games).

You make a very compelling argument, David.

[Palipride47]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
It's a game they  can make a culture that represents them.

And who says they won't? Gaider didn't say he won't.....

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
If they're going to extend the effort to include one ethnic group they should do the same for others.

I can't (well, I can, but...) believe this is considered some "effort" (implying labor and plotting specifically to make an ethnic group feel included for inclusion's sake, with nothing to add, and even so, how is it bad to do so?!)

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
I say this as a white male gamer.

That has no bearing on this topic, doesn't make your opinion "better" or "worse", and makes "you" sound worse. You basically just pulled an "I'm not a racist..." moment, whether you meant to or not.

Modifié par Palipride47, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:09 .

[Allan Schumacher]

If they're going to extend the effort to include one ethnic group they should do the same for others.

I don't think a new race/population should be introduced specifically for the goal of mirroring Earth's ethnic diversity.

If there's plans to make a new race for lore reasons, then it's not really much of an issue.

[Shadow Fox]

Palipride47 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
It's a game they  can make a culture that represents them.

And who says they won't? Gaider didn't say he won't.....

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
If they're going to extend the effort to include one ethnic group they should do the same for others.

I can;t beleive this is considered some "effort" (implying labor and plotting specifically to make an ethnic group feel included for inclusion's sake, with nothing to add, and even so, how is it bad to do so?!)

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
I say this as a white male gamer.

That has no bearing on this topic, and makes you sound worse. You basically just pulled an "I'm not a racist..." moment.

Tell me why it's only ever considered a major issue when it regards blacks?That's what I want to know.

In Resident Evil 4 you had a white guy*Leon* mowing down infected Latins and no one gave a **** because it fitted the game's setting

Resident Evil 5 had Chris killing infected Africans and all of a sudden people accuse Capcom of being racist despite the game taking place in Africa where the dominant population is black.

 and the only prominant Asian character in the series is a femme fatale yet there's no talk of unfortunate implications  regarding streotypes because of this

I did that so people couldn't accuse me of trying to push an agenda in  regards to demanding Bioware accomodate my ethnicy as well I don't care if people on the internet think that it's suspect.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

There you go, black guy right at the back,

[challenger18]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

In Resident Evil 4 you had a white guy*Leon* mowing down infected Latins and no one gave a **** because it fitted the game's setting

Resident Evil 5 had Chris killing infected Africans and all of a sudden people accuse Capcom of being racist despite the game taking place in Africa where the dominant population is black.

 and the only prominant Asian character in the series is a femme fatale yet there's no talk of unfortunate implications  regarding streotypes because of this

I did that so people couldn't accuse me of trying to push an agenda in  regards to demanding Bioware accomodate my ethnicy as well I don't care if people on the internet think that it's suspect.

RE4 took place in Spain not some Latin American country, IIRC.

Modifié par challenger18, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:30 .

[Direwolf0294]

What I wouldn't mind seeing is different ethnicity for the different races. In fantasy you'll often get white humans, black humans, Asian influenced humans etc but then there's only ever one type of elf or one type of dwarf. Why can't there be a race of black elves in Thedas? Or a group of dwarves with their appearance and culture based on the middle east?

[Icesong]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Icesong wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
Well, speaking from the PoV of a person of mixed descent(at least in the sense of modern ethnicities, ignoring the fact that many older ethnic groups are now merged together into these much broader categories), I suppose I'm a full on example of a person whose "race" is not really represented much either in video gaming(half-"insert non-human race here" exists, but I don't think that can be considered a legitimate replacement any more than elf for Asians, or dwarves for Hispanics). I can honestly say I've never been bothered by it, or by race in general and it simply doesn't occur to me to question whether the absence of explicitly mixed-race characters is somehow racist. I would also observe that Asians, Hispanics, and Native Americans are represented even less frequently than Blacks in quite a few gaming genres from my personal experience. People don't often seem to request additional characters of those races. Not saying that there's anything wrong with such requests, just stating my observations.

Completely fair. I'm not saying you *should* feel that way, but obviously some do... and it'd be pretty presumptuous of someone who's already part of a group that is well-represented to say they shouldn't. In this particular case, a culture which is predominantly black is already part of Thedas... so it's hardly beyond the pale to ask that we see more representatives of that culture, or that they be slightly more conspicuous than "tan" (which, as we've said, was a limitation of the engine).

With regards to Asians or other ethnicities, those can be a little harder to justify if they aren't represented by a culture on the Thedas continent... but that certainly shouldn't prevent lone travelers from faraway lands from appearing, or even a follower (especially a follower, perhaps, as they get to be all sorts of special snowflakes). That could be kind of cool, and certainly there's no harm in the asking.

At the risk of sounding racially insensitive I'll ask why is it harder to justify adding Latin or Asian looking characters than blacks?

"[...]if they aren't represented by a culture on the Thedas continent [...]"

It's a game they  can make a culture that represents them.

If they're going to extend the effort to include one ethnic group they should do the same for others.

I say this as a white male gamer.

The effort was already made to have black people in Thedas, white male gamer.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Tell me why it's only ever considered a major issue when it regards blacks?That's what I want to know.

Resident Evil 5 had Chris killing infected Africans and all of a sudden people accuse Capcom of being racist despite the game taking place in Africa where the dominant population is black.

From the moment you entered this thread with this:

I wasn't aware this was still an issue in today's society.

I knew you had a gigantic chip on your shoulder.

Modifié par Icesong, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:04 .