320 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvianus]

@Arcane Warrior :

What's your point ? I don't quite follow you. Are you trying to create an issue where there is none, while Bioware simply tries to show more diversity ? We have already seen white skinned people. How about the opposite where it's appropriate, in hotter countries with different cultures for example ? ... Whether they choose Asians, Indians or black people, it is a good thing. The principle is to show MORE diversity, MORE variety in Thedas. Did you only see white humans in real life ? No. So why not in the game too ? We already know that the Rivaini are dark skinned people.

From what I understand when I am reading you, you only want to see white humans and you seem to be offended that David Gaider looks forward to more diversity - where it's appropriate as well and if there are reasons to do so. Because I can't understand why more diversity would suddenly bother you while he explained to you there would be always lore explanations.

" Either we have only white people in DA, or everything ( meaning nothing actually ) ", that is basically what you are asking.

Why does it have to be an issue ? We can't show everything into a game, so we need to keep only white humans, the standard, right ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 25 octobre 2012 - 12:39 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Tell me why it's only ever considered a major issue when it regards blacks?That's what I want to know.

This  post  is about Diversity, not just Blacks. Read some of the other posts. Asains and Latino's have asked for representation. If you feel like this is only about Blacks, that is certainly your perogative.

[Palipride47]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Tell me why it's only ever considered a major issue when it regards blacks?That's what I want to know.

In Resident Evil 4 you had a white guy*Leon* mowing down infected Latins and no one gave a **** because it fitted the game's setting

Resident Evil 5 had Chris killing infected Africans and all of a sudden people accuse Capcom of being racist despite the game taking place in Africa where the dominant population is black.

 and the only prominant Asian character in the series is a femme fatale yet there's no talk of unfortunate implications  regarding streotypes because of this

I did that so people couldn't accuse me of trying to push an agenda in  regards to demanding Bioware accomodate my ethnicy as well I don't care if people on the internet think that it's suspect.

Wow, do you not follow any other video game controversies that ever show up? -

Like you instigating Cuban/Haitian gang violence in Vice City (which, come on, even for a GTA game.....)

And it isn't even restricted to "race"-

Our own "gay Anders" bit? Or "fair skinned" Isabela?
The Sims and gay marriage

Or Anita Sarkeesian, sexism, and the horrible response she had to deal with?

You know what:

I think, at this point, you are using the fact that "black" was the springboard to ask for inclusion in games is a way to justify completely dismissing the notion of it being an issue in the first place.

And the implication that we must have all-white if we cannot have everything is a little annoying, speaks to a view of "white is normal" and...I'm done.....

Modifié par Palipride47, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:32 .

[Ryzaki]

Honestly if Jacob is any indication I'd rather they leave it alone.

I honestly wanted to throw my computer out a window because of that. Damn stereotype.

And people can say "but everyone's not gonna be loyal!" til they're blue in the face. Don't care. It BOTHERS me that the only one disloyal is Jacob. Only him. And there's baby momma drama. Gag me with a spoon.

[Eshaye]

David Gaider wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And frankly I think if people are looking for evidence of real life  ethnic groups in a fantasy game I think they're the ones with the problem.

I don't think that's exactly fair.

What if the shoe was on the other foot, and a game you really liked was populated by nothing but black characters? You might be upset, or you might say "it's great that exists, but it's really not for me." And that'd be fine, as it would be a pretty unique game. But what if all such games had all-black casts, always? You don't think you would find yourself feeling thoughtlessly excluded and rendered invisible for no good reason? If your answer is no, I'd venture to say it's probably because you've never found yourself in that position.

It's perfectly reasonable for players to ask for more black characters in a world that has black people in it... if not for the sake of diversity alone, how about using the color palette we've chosen for ourselves? I, for one, look forward to being able to use the new engine to render a wider array of skin tones. I previously said that greater variety in races is something we would do where it's appropriate... and there are places where it's appropriate. So it'd be nice to go to some of them. "Human", after all, is a race that doesn't only come in one flavor.

I want to rate this post over 100 times. This forum needs thumbs ups or something.... Very well said. *claps* 

[Shadow Fox]

Sylvianus wrote...

@Arcane Warrior :

What's your point ? I don't quite follow you. Are you trying to create an issue where there is none, while Bioware simply tries to show more diversity ? We have already seen white skinned people. How about the opposite where it's appropriate, in hotter countries with different cultures for example ? ... Whether they choose Asians, Indians or black people, it is a good thing. The principle is to show MORE diversity, MORE variety in Thedas. Did you only see white humans in real life ? No. So why not in the game too ?

From what I understand when I am reading you, you only want to see white humans and you seem to be offended that David Gaider looks forward to more diversity - where it's appropriate as well and if there are reasons to do so. Because I can't understand why more diversity would suddenly bother you.

" Either we have only white people in DA, or everything ( meaning nothing actually ) ", that is basically what you are asking.

Why does it have to be an issue ? We can't show everything into a game, so we need to keep only white humans, the standard, right ?

I'm not trying to create an issue the topic specificaly specified black character sand claimed it would add racial diveristy while that's true in a sense I'm wonderng why adding black characters should be prioritized over other ethnices instead of simply making an effort to include other ethnices and make it feel natural rather than forced it just sounds odd to me.

[Palipride47]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

@Arcane Warrior :

What's your point ? I don't quite follow you. Are you trying to create an issue where there is none, while Bioware simply tries to show more diversity ? We have already seen white skinned people. How about the opposite where it's appropriate, in hotter countries with different cultures for example ? ... Whether they choose Asians, Indians or black people, it is a good thing. The principle is to show MORE diversity, MORE variety in Thedas. Did you only see white humans in real life ? No. So why not in the game too ?

From what I understand when I am reading you, you only want to see white humans and you seem to be offended that David Gaider looks forward to more diversity - where it's appropriate as well and if there are reasons to do so. Because I can't understand why more diversity would suddenly bother you.

" Either we have only white people in DA, or everything ( meaning nothing actually ) ", that is basically what you are asking.

Why does it have to be an issue ? We can't show everything into a game, so we need to keep only white humans, the standard, right ?

I'm not trying to create an issue the topic specificaly specified black character sand claimed it would add racial diveristy while that's true in a sense I'm wonderng why adding black characters should be prioritized over other ethnices instead of simply making an effort to include other ethnices and make it feel natural rather than forced it just sounds odd to me.

I think some of who are responding just want a nice rainbow of colors so everyone is involved, and so everyone can pick up a game and, like Gaider said, notice that they aren't being excluded for no reason at all. 

I think using "black" in specific terms (implying they are the only ones with a perception issue) wasn't the way to start it, 

And race in itself is a social construct, and not an issue we can rage about (or solve) on a forum without someone coming in and locking it (for either starting the firestorm just to watch people fight and cackle to themselves, or for entering a nice discussion, and derailing it) 

Modifié par Palipride47, 25 octobre 2012 - 12:54 .

[ziloe]

Like anyone else, I would like to see other races too, yes. But I brought up black, because that's the one I still see fairly stereotypical.
Mass Effect 3 also had James Vega. Not many people liked him, but he wasn't a bad character. Games like Assassin's Creed are bringing in a Native Americans as the main protagonist, and one of my favourite games of this year, is Sleeping Dogs, which features a Chinese American.
That said, aside from the GTA series, I've rarely seen a black lead, nor have I seen many black characters in RPGs.

And no, your player character does not count.

Modifié par ziloe, 25 octobre 2012 - 01:09 .

[Menagra]

Well mass effect 3 was about as "multi-cultural" as a mainstream entertainment gets. The "such a wide audience that we have no audience" entertainers struggle with being inclusive. "Black people" as you say are a major part of western culture and so are included often in entertainment as a token, when in reality our society is extremely diverse in culture, lifestyle, religion, and opinion. These black characters rarely are representative of african american culture (who is often the inspiration), and are really just a symbolic role. Even "black exploitation" happens often, where the intrigue of this cultures heritage has caused so much interest in that specific group that things are twisted to the point that they fail to represent this unique heritage. Just throwing in a black guy doesn't make a game diverse and actually often times is a flashback to racial hatred flung at African Americans throughout the entertainment industries history by the roles they are given. I believe Jacob is a half a step away from that and I sense it is the reason Bioware chose to "tread lightly" with his character. Given bioware is a mostly Canadian company the utilization of race has much different approaches and expectations than would an American company. What is truly needed in any mainstream blockbuster are characters that empower, include and represent unique perspectives in our western society. Race would be included, as would religion, lifestyle, gender identity, etc. To include a dialogue between characters that reflects a dialogue between cultures is a very powerful thing, and often something that mass media runs from because it's so controversial. Even having women’s bodies be somewhat representative of what 95% of women actually look like is controversial due to the voyeurism in the escapist culture. Bioware simply would not have female characters of other races b/c they weren't "sexy" enough, which is so incredibly disheartening. Bioware has proven they, like many other big studios, are very timid when it comes to being representational. The inclusion of homosexual characters was a big move and caused quite a stir of homophobia. The video game audience tends to be mostly populated by young white men, and that specific group tends to be extremely intolerant. This is merely a symptom of exploitation and many are ignorant of what is happening to them (ever heard of divide and conquer?). The video game audience would most likely widen as they game diversified if done approapriately.  If these companies truly wished to make an impact they would seek to be inclusive and would probably make waves. But alas they choose not to be. A hint at the regression of western culture.

And being culturally inclusive doesn't mean a certain political viewpoint is heralded, often times it merely is about the "human" within humanity. Often times it's the contrast of culture that allows individuals to understand or appreciate their own. A great example of cultural inclusive entertainment done right is "9/11-9/11" by Mel Chin, which utilizes another nations experience with the day 9/11 as a way of investigating the cultural impact of the events that occurred on 9/11 in America. It becomes apparent that it's not really a movie about these cultures (even though it is), but rather more about suffering due to violent acts and the shattering cultural waves these acts cause. This sort of "lens within" and "representation" approach works very well on a wide scale, but is rarely utilized. I am afraid that's because mass media entertainment is usually decades behind any social changes and currently we are regressing as a tolerant society. Bioware is much better than other companies at including diversity in their games, but I think you may have noticed how little diversity is embraced, and I sense that is the reason for your comments. I commend your bravery for saying your thoughts, because it's much better to be open about your thoughts and learn from mistakes than to hold on to your prejudice and pretend you have none. Many other commentators have brought up the racial issues that are implicated from your comment so I don't feel the need to do so myself, but I thought a discussion on race in entertainment called for some commentary on the entertainment industry in general. Also please understand that this comments come from a person who is no where near knowledgeable on this issue as they should be. I'm sure my perspective is narrow, and my description clumsy.

Modifié par infraredman, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:07 .

[Ghost_Nappa]

ziloe wrote...

Like anyone else, I would like to see other races too, yes. But I brought up black, because that's the one I still see fairly stereotypical.
Mass Effect 3 also had James Vega. Not many people liked him, but he wasn't a bad character. Games like Assassin's Creed are bringing in a Native Americans as the main protagonist, and one of my favorite games of this year, is Sleeping Dogs, which features a Chinese American.
That said, aside from the GTA series, I've rarely seen a black lead, nor have I seen many black characters in RPGs.

And no, your player character does not count.

Well Ziloe for black characters in RPGS...you will have to go into the realm of the JRPG.
 Now hear me out before you start hurtling bricks.

The only good examples I can think of are 3-4 characters from the Final fantasy franchise.
Barret from FF7
Rafah & Malak from FFT( final fantasy tactics)
Sazh from FF13.

From what I can say from them as characters they range, respectively, from awful to Thank you.

First up is Barret who, to this awful day, I shake my head at all because of a translation change. In the original Japanese dialogue he sounded like how you would think of someone fighting guerrilla war tactics while taking care of his adopted daughter: calm, haggered and respectful.
However when it came to port and translate his dialogue...I have no clue who the hell thought of it, but they decided to 'street up' his lines. Cue facepalms and lots of jokes for black game players to feel secretly ashamed. (I know I do.)

Next up are Rafah and Malak from FFT which reveals around a story based off the war of roses set in a euro centric country. Granted they don't add much to the story aside form having Persian influenced attire, and not going into spoilers for those genuinely interested, their story revolves around tragedy of being used as human weapons.
Granted not much to the story but their interactions with the main cast, but they were a step up from Barret with some 2 dimensional characterization.

Last there is Sazh from FF13, which I will admit is a horrible game but a guilty pleasure cause I play for this character. Spoilers galore to save you all from that trainwreck story.
Basically the man is taking care of his toddler son, some years from his unspecified wife's death, only to have the kid marked from some god like being to submit a task that A: he doesnt complete will turn him into a soulless monster. or B:he completes turn him into a living crystal statue that puts him into an eternal coma.
The kicker comes in when Sazh gets from an opposing monster god which makes...and literally becomes part of his son's focus making him an enemy of the world they live in.
So thus the dilemma Sazh has on whether he should help in someway to ease his child's task or risk turning him into a monster and losing him.
Either way looks screwed up because the man is in such emotional turmoil over his son he actually contemplates suicide if it means his son lives, albeit, in some death coma.

Now as long winded this became out of those three choices I will always hope we have a black character like Sazh, because not only did I get emotionally attached to his plight, I at one point genuinely wished I saw more characters like him.

Granted I should be Happy I got someone like Anderson.....but I need more Sazh's in my gaming life.

[darrylzero]

Nashimura wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

The consensus is that the Rivaini are the "dark skinned" people of Andrastian Thedas. Dark Skinned vs. Black is a WHOLE OTHER DEBATE. 

Also, the Thedosian landscape turns more "jungle-like" as you go North, so is it kind of being assumed you'll find "black people" farther north (even though "black" is a social construct in itself)

Rivaini was my first thought too but i also read its based on spain - i could never call the spanish black. 

Rivain has some features of Spain, but I think there are big enough differences that we can say it's not based on Spain, not really.  It's populated by a dark skinned population from islands in the Boeric Ocean.  Rivainis have skin tones that vary from what I believe has been called "dark tan to ebony."  I have hypothesized that perhaps the lighter skin tones are the result of intermixing with Thedosian populations, and that therefore the islanders they are descended from could be mostly at the darker end of the spectrum, but we don't actually know anything about that.  

The primary comparison with Spain, I suspect, is that the Qunari have a real foothold there, much like pre-Reconquista Spain, but it's more culturally attached to Thedas/Europe.  However, if we're talking Rivainis rather than Rivain, I don't see much of a comparison with Spainiards.  Rather, it's as if an Afro-Polynesian population migrated to the Iberian peninsula, which happened to be mostly uninhabited at the time, got along pretty well with Christianity and Islam but maintained their own spiritual tradition (which appears to me to have a clear relationship with pre-Christian, pre-Islamic West African spirituality that later informed things like voodoo and santeria), and founded a pirate haven or two in the vein of Caribbean cities like Port Royal or Tortuga.  It's not trying to be a direct analog of anything, and it's clearly much more different from the rest of Thedas than Spain ever was from the rest of Europe.

I hate to link to myself, but since I've written a fair amount about this over the past couple days trying to clarify some of this confusion, here's a few of those pieces:

http://social.biowar...7663/1#14628214
http://social.biowar...7823/7#14637646
http://social.biowar...7823/7#14639300

Not sure how much is there that I didn't already say -- possibly nothing --- so only follow those links (some of which are simply to earlier posts in this very thread) if you're really interested, or want some evidence that I'm telling the truth.

Modifié par darrylzero, 25 octobre 2012 - 04:24 .

[darrylzero]

For those of you interested in seeing a Latin American analog, I'd like to ask the same question that I asked earlier about what having more African characters would or should mean.

When I think about the possibility of more Asian characters, I can easily imagine that there's a continent to the east with very sophisticated cultures on it that could show up. Story-wise, I wouldn't personally know what to do with them. (Maybe an anti-Qunari civilization that would offer to ally itself with Thedas once the Qunari came too close to winning?). But from a world-building perspective it makes perfect sense. The really thorny question vis-a-vis this thread is whether or not they should human -- at least, that's what would keep me up at night if I had to make that decision.

But what about the idea of Latin America? What would you want to mean that you could be or meet a "Latin American" character? The idea of Latin America, to me, is forged in the colonial encounter, through the blending of Spanish/Portuguese and Native American biology and culture. So, would Thedosian people have to discover another continent and colonize it (a la Maztica)? Are you more interested in an analog of modern patterns of migration? Do you just want someone who looks the right way? If it's the latter, are there ways that would feel cheap or underthought to you?

I only ask because I would be totally into the idea, but I can't make it work in my head, so I would love to know more about what people are envisioning.

Modifié par darrylzero, 25 octobre 2012 - 04:46 .

[Nashimura]

Good stuff, thanks for that - I would love to discover Rivain in-game, they did a great job with creating the Thedas.

[AlexanderCousland]

Most of you are making the mistake of believing that Rivain has to be based on Africa in order to be black, or even based on any country. And Rivain is about as Similiar to Fereldan as Tevinter is to Orlais. Point being, every nation within Thedas seems to have it's own way. And if your looking for spanish culture try Antiva.

[HTTP 404]

is this a "is this racist?" thread?

[Nashimura]

I always thought Antiva=Italy, all loosely based of course.

Modifié par Nashimura, 25 octobre 2012 - 05:07 .

[Orian Tabris]

I'd just like to point out, that Isabela is black. Zevran is more... tanned than black, but Izzy, is definitely black. Also, Sten - being kossith - is sort of "black", with his ashen skin. He is probably the closest to a black person, though I wouldn't say he's the "token black character".

[AlexanderCousland]

I wouldnt call it racist, just people expressing their views. No one has tossed a slur, but certainly their is some ignorama involved. Organized group of Assasin Kings, who have their hand in every nation's pockets and therefore maintain Independence without a strong military presence, sounds pretty spanish, however, i can see italy but it should be noted that the two countries are very close in proximity and share treaties with one another, so either way.

[ziloe]

Orian Tabris wrote...

I'd just like to point out, that Isabela is black. Zevran is more... tanned than black, but Izzy, is definitely black. Also, Sten - being kossith - is sort of "black", with his ashen skin. He is probably the closest to a black person, though I wouldn't say he's the "token black character".

Are we really debating tan? 

[severedscythe]

David Gaider wrote...


With regards to Asians or other ethnicities, those can be a little harder to justify if they aren't represented by a culture on the Thedas continent... but that certainly shouldn't prevent lone travelers from faraway lands from appearing, or even a follower (especially a follower, perhaps, as they get to be all sorts of special snowflakes). That could be kind of cool, and certainly there's no harm in the asking.

Gaider, if you can justify a race of purple horned people you can justify asians. And black people. And other ethnicities.Just sayin. :|

[ziloe]

severedscythe wrote...

David Gaider wrote...


With regards to Asians or other ethnicities, those can be a little harder to justify if they aren't represented by a culture on the Thedas continent... but that certainly shouldn't prevent lone travelers from faraway lands from appearing, or even a follower (especially a follower, perhaps, as they get to be all sorts of special snowflakes). That could be kind of cool, and certainly there's no harm in the asking.

Gaider, if you can justify a race of purple horned people you can justify asians. And black people. And other ethnicities.Just sayin. :|

I think you missed his next sentence.

[Scott Sion]

ziloe wrote...

severedscythe wrote...

David Gaider wrote...


With regards to Asians or other ethnicities, those can be a little harder to justify if they aren't represented by a culture on the Thedas continent... but that certainly shouldn't prevent lone travelers from faraway lands from appearing, or even a follower (especially a follower, perhaps, as they get to be all sorts of special snowflakes). That could be kind of cool, and certainly there's no harm in the asking.

Gaider, if you can justify a race of purple horned people you can justify asians. And black people. And other ethnicities.Just sayin. :|

I think you missed his next sentence.

Nope, BSN rule number 86 "Always read the first line of a post then immediately jump to conclusions". I suggest you read the code of conduct if you have not already done so.

[ziloe]

plnero wrote...

ziloe wrote...

severedscythe wrote...

David Gaider wrote...


With regards to Asians or other ethnicities, those can be a little harder to justify if they aren't represented by a culture on the Thedas continent... but that certainly shouldn't prevent lone travelers from faraway lands from appearing, or even a follower (especially a follower, perhaps, as they get to be all sorts of special snowflakes). That could be kind of cool, and certainly there's no harm in the asking.

Gaider, if you can justify a race of purple horned people you can justify asians. And black people. And other ethnicities.Just sayin. :|

I think you missed his next sentence.

Nope, BSN rule number 86 "Always read the first line of a post then immediately jump to conclusions". I suggest you read the code of conduct if you have not already done so.

Makes sense. Could explain why people keep getting upset because I used Jacob as an example too, lol.

[ziloe]

Ghost_Nappa wrote...

ziloe wrote...

Like anyone else, I would like to see other races too, yes. But I brought up black, because that's the one I still see fairly stereotypical.
Mass Effect 3 also had James Vega. Not many people liked him, but he wasn't a bad character. Games like Assassin's Creed are bringing in a Native Americans as the main protagonist, and one of my favorite games of this year, is Sleeping Dogs, which features a Chinese American.
That said, aside from the GTA series, I've rarely seen a black lead, nor have I seen many black characters in RPGs.

And no, your player character does not count.

Well Ziloe for black characters in RPGS...you will have to go into the realm of the JRPG.
 Now hear me out before you start hurtling bricks.

The only good examples I can think of are 3-4 characters from the Final fantasy franchise.
Barret from FF7
Rafah & Malak from FFT( final fantasy tactics)
Sazh from FF13.

From what I can say from them as characters they range, respectively, from awful to Thank you.

First up is Barret who, to this awful day, I shake my head at all because of a translation change. In the original Japanese dialogue he sounded like how you would think of someone fighting guerrilla war tactics while taking care of his adopted daughter: calm, haggered and respectful.
However when it came to port and translate his dialogue...I have no clue who the hell thought of it, but they decided to 'street up' his lines. Cue facepalms and lots of jokes for black game players to feel secretly ashamed. (I know I do.)

Next up are Rafah and Malak from FFT which reveals around a story based off the war of roses set in a euro centric country. Granted they don't add much to the story aside form having Persian influenced attire, and not going into spoilers for those genuinely interested, their story revolves around tragedy of being used as human weapons.
Granted not much to the story but their interactions with the main cast, but they were a step up from Barret with some 2 dimensional characterization.

Last there is Sazh from FF13, which I will admit is a horrible game but a guilty pleasure cause I play for this character. Spoilers galore to save you all from that trainwreck story.
Basically the man is taking care of his toddler son, some years from his unspecified wife's death, only to have the kid marked from some god like being to submit a task that A: he doesnt complete will turn him into a soulless monster. or B:he completes turn him into a living crystal statue that puts him into an eternal coma.
The kicker comes in when Sazh gets from an opposing monster god which makes...and literally becomes part of his son's focus making him an enemy of the world they live in.
So thus the dilemma Sazh has on whether he should help in someway to ease his child's task or risk turning him into a monster and losing him.
Either way looks screwed up because the man is in such emotional turmoil over his son he actually contemplates suicide if it means his son lives, albeit, in some death coma.

Now as long winded this became out of those three choices I will always hope we have a black character like Sazh, because not only did I get emotionally attached to his plight, I at one point genuinely wished I saw more characters like him.

Granted I should be Happy I got someone like Anderson.....but I need more Sazh's in my gaming life.

Believe me, I'm well aware of the FF games, though, I pretty much stopped after 10. Still, don't you see an issue when all of the characters you can actually name off, come from the same franchise?