320 réponses à ce sujet

[Chaos Lord Malek]

Milan92 wrote...

Aren't the Rivain people close to black?

They are fantasy Spain. I don't know what you consider black, but i would say black people originate from Affrica or south/middle America, so no, they aren't.

[MissOuJ]

There was that YouTube DA short with Felicia Day (Redemption, I think it was) which has this awesome Nevarran Reaver female warrior - Nyree - who is black. First I thought they might have taken the "angry black woman" trope a bit too far, but she was pretty awesome character in her own right: a tough-as-nails mercenary with just big enough soft spot to make her likable. Also - spoilers! - she says she has fought with Cassandra, so it wouldn't be that far fetched she'd have some ties to the PC through the Seeker order. I'd love to see her in DA3!

Anyway, so apparently (at least some of) Nevarrans are black, so I can't see why there couldn't be any Nevarran companions/NPCs. In fact, that would be quite awesome!

Modifié par MissOuJ, 23 octobre 2012 - 02:13 .

[Kail Ashton]

This is the kind of topic that requires tact & good jusgement to properly create, the topic creator very obviusly has neither of those and i'm left wondering how this thread wasn't locked down yet

So first off, mass effect takes place in our own universe based on our races & skin types, derpity derp there. Secondly dragon age takes place in a faaaaaaantasy universe, that why you have metrosexual, pointy eared, bug eyed freaks and midgets as races, it's not bound by skin color like in our reality. Third pretty sure the rivani's cover the dark skinned portion of the humans, thus Isabella would be your "black character" and let's say the majority of rivani, you could also easily argue Sten is half rivani and half horned giant thing as he has dark skin, the qunari & rivani have a history and horned qunari are quite pale

[ziloe]

Kail Ashton wrote...

This is the kind of topic that requires tact & good jusgement to properly create, the topic creator very obviusly has neither of those and i'm left wondering how this thread wasn't locked down yet

So first off, mass effect takes place in our own universe based on our races & skin types, derpity derp there. Secondly dragon age takes place in a faaaaaaantasy universe, that why you have metrosexual, pointy eared, bug eyed freaks and midgets as races, it's not bound by skin color like in our reality. Third pretty sure the rivani's cover the dark skinned portion of the humans, thus Isabella would be your "black character" and let's say the majority of rivani, you could also easily argue Sten is half rivani and half horned giant thing as he has dark skin, the qunari & rivani have a history and horned qunari are quite pale

As someone stated, the rivani are fantasy spain. I have been very civil with people here that disagree. If you don't like it, you don't have to participate in this thread. 

Someone already brought up the idea of what Fog warriors could look like, so check this out:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/315/index/13826878

[Vandicus]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Aren't the Rivain people close to black?

They are fantasy Spain. I don't know what you consider black, but i would say black people originate from Affrica or south/middle America, so no, they aren't.

Spain had and has substantial populations of people of African descent. It was ruled for most of the Middle Ages(over 700 years) by an African/Arabian based empire after all.

[ziloe]

Vandicus wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Aren't the Rivain people close to black?

They are fantasy Spain. I don't know what you consider black, but i would say black people originate from Affrica or south/middle America, so no, they aren't.

Spain had and has substantial populations of people of African descent. It was ruled for most of the Middle Ages(over 700 years) by an African/Arabian based empire after all.

Even so, in this subject, we are specifically speaking about african descent. I'm all for having variously coloured NPCs, but in this context, I am referring to an actual companion for the player character, as there are very little major roles for an african type character, that aren't already cliche or contrived.

[darrylzero]

ziloe wrote...

As someone stated, the rivani are fantasy spain. I have been very civil with people here that disagree. If you don't like it, you don't have to participate in this thread. 

I would absolutely support more human racial / ethnic diversity in the Dragon Age series.  I'm not sure how literal I would like an African analog to be, but I hope to have more opportunities to meet (and perhaps be) human characters that do not seem European, in a way that is internally consistent and doesn't feel forced.

I have a nit to pick with this Rivain = Spain thing, though.  I understand that it's important to rebut the idea that the ability to appear Rivaini and meet Rivaini characters should satisfy or even nullify our hopes for more diversity, but I think it's important to point out that they are not simply darker skinned Thedosians.  Here is David Gaider on the subject, from this post:

David Gaider wrote...

...North of the Donarks is jungle. Not a lot... once you get into the Boeric Ocean you're looking at mostly small island chains. There are outposts of several nations there, but also Qunari... not to mention angry natives (this is where the Rivaini hail from, racially speaking) who don't like southern lands getting colonial inclinations.

Some of this is probably driven by the difficulties Eclipse had with darker skin that Mary mentioned earlier.  It may well be that Rivainis will appear much more racially distinct in the new engine.  We will have to see, of course, but we do know that they hail from more tropical climes, have darker skin and a very different history of spirituality.  That doesn't make them African analogs by any means, but they're not just Spanish either, not even pre-Reconquista Spanish.  There are clear similiarities, but also important differences.

Modifié par darrylzero, 23 octobre 2012 - 08:55 .

[Vandicus]

ziloe wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Aren't the Rivain people close to black?

They are fantasy Spain. I don't know what you consider black, but i would say black people originate from Affrica or south/middle America, so no, they aren't.

Spain had and has substantial populations of people of African descent. It was ruled for most of the Middle Ages(over 700 years) by an African/Arabian based empire after all.

Even so, in this subject, we are specifically speaking about african descent. I'm all for having variously coloured NPCs, but in this context, I am referring to an actual companion for the player character, as there are very little major roles for an african type character, that aren't already cliche or contrived.

At risk of getting my post edited, I would posit that the Qunari have supplanted the traditional role of the Caliphate in Medieval Europe based settings. A more advanced civilization invades with superior technology but foreign social/religious concepts and possessing a more collectivist lean. This in turn causes the western individualist nations to band together and push them back. Conquest and reconquest is met with moderate success and failure on both sides. It seems very analogous to me.

Pretty much the reason I think we won't see an analog to the Caliphate populated by black people, is that the analog already exists.

Much in the same way that elves and dwarves supplant various other nationalities and such.

[Annihilator27]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Aren't the Rivain people close to black?

They are fantasy Spain. I don't know what you consider black, but i would say black people originate from Affrica or south/middle America, so no, they aren't.

Rivain's are Black.
http://social.biowar...ex/4439470&lf=8

Modifié par Annihilator27, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:24 .

[darrylzero]

Vandicus wrote...

At risk of getting my post edited, I would posit that the Qunari have supplanted the traditional role of the Caliphate in Medieval Europe based settings. A more advanced civilization invades with superior technology but foreign social/religious concepts and possessing a more collectivist lean. This in turn causes the western individualist nations to band together and push them back. Conquest and reconquest is met with moderate success and failure on both sides. It seems very analogous to me.

Pretty much the reason I think we won't see an analog to the Caliphate populated by black people, is that the analog already exists.

Much in the same way that elves and dwarves supplant various other nationalities and such.

I think that's right, but rather than closing them off I think it could raise interesting questions about what the idea of Africa would mean to Thedas.  When we want an African culture or an African character what are we asking for?  Is it the birthplace of humanity that appeals?  The phenotype?  The climate?

I think the Rivainis and their parent culture are probably the closest we are going to get.  They may have an origin that is as inspired by Polynesia as much as by Africa, but I think there are commonalities.  As Annihilator27 just reminded us (in David Gaider's words), they "have skin tones ranging from dark tan to ebony," and it may be that their parent culture in the Boeric Islands is on the darker-skinned part of that spectrum (lighter skin tones in Rivain itself possibly indicating a history of intermarriage with Thedosians).  They are caught in-between the Qunari and Thedosians in a way perhaps reminiscent of people of the Maghreb.  Excuse my laziness in simply quoting wikipedia, but consider the following (from the entry on the Berber people):

"Nonetheless, the Islamization and Arabization of the region was a complicated and lengthy processes. Whereas nomadic Berbers were quick to convert and assist the Arab conquerors, it was not until the 12th century, under the Almohad Dynasty, that the Christian, Jewish and animist communities of the Maghreb became marginalized."

Sounds familiar to me!  Of course, we don't know that the Rivainis will eventually be assimilated into either Andrastrian or Qunari traditions, but it certainly seems like a possibility.  And while the Rivaini history of spirituality is probably drawn from a number of sources, it seems likely that some of them are African.  

So, would a Rivaini character who exhibited dark enough skin and a clear enough preference for Rivaini spiritual tradition come close enough?  Would a Boeric Islander?  If that doesn't feel right, what would?

Modifié par darrylzero, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:02 .

[ziloe]

Annihilator27 wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Aren't the Rivain people close to black?

They are fantasy Spain. I don't know what you consider black, but i would say black people originate from Affrica or south/middle America, so no, they aren't.

Rivain's are Black.
http://social.biowar...ex/4439470&lf=8

As lovely as this is, it's not clear to players as a known fact. If this is the case, I think Bioware should be displaying this with their new engine, and not just stating it in book format, etc. And hopefully, they do with another awesome and playable character.

Modifié par ziloe, 23 octobre 2012 - 11:46 .

[ziloe]

darrylzero wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

At risk of getting my post edited, I would posit that the Qunari have supplanted the traditional role of the Caliphate in Medieval Europe based settings. A more advanced civilization invades with superior technology but foreign social/religious concepts and possessing a more collectivist lean. This in turn causes the western individualist nations to band together and push them back. Conquest and reconquest is met with moderate success and failure on both sides. It seems very analogous to me.

Pretty much the reason I think we won't see an analog to the Caliphate populated by black people, is that the analog already exists.

Much in the same way that elves and dwarves supplant various other nationalities and such.

I think that's right, but rather than closing them off I think it could raise interesting questions about what the idea of Africa would mean to Thedas.  When we want an African culture or an African character what are we asking for?  Is it the birthplace of humanity that appeals?  The phenotype?  The climate?

I think the Rivainis and their parent culture are probably the closest we are going to get.  They may have an origin that is as inspired by Polynesia as much as by Africa, but I think there are commonalities.  As Annihilator27 just reminded us (in David Gaider's words), they "have skin tones ranging from dark tan to ebony," and it may be that their parent culture in the Boeric Islands is on the darker-skinned part of that spectrum (lighter skin tones in Rivain itself possibly indicating a history of intermarriage with Thedosians).  They are caught in-between the Qunari and Thedosians in a way perhaps reminiscent of people of the Maghreb.  Excuse my laziness in simply quoting wikipedia, but consider the following (from the entry on the Berber people):

"Nonetheless, the Islamization and Arabization of the region was a complicated and lengthy processes. Whereas nomadic Berbers were quick to convert and assist the Arab conquerors, it was not until the 12th century, under the Almohad Dynasty, that the Christian, Jewish and animist communities of the Maghreb became marginalized."

Sounds familiar to me!  Of course, we don't know that the Rivainis will eventually be assimilated into either Andrastrian or Qunari traditions, but it certainly seems like a possibility.  And while the Rivaini history of spirituality is probably drawn from a number of sources, it seems likely that some of them are African.  

So, would a Rivaini character who exhibited dark enough skin and a clear enough preference for Rivaini spiritual tradition come close enough?  Would a Boeric Islander?  If that doesn't feel right, what would?

I think you're missing something though. Unless you attend these forums a lot, and religiously read the codex entries or the novels, none of this is known to the average player. And frankly, that's a problem.

[Darth Death]

Annihilator27 wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Aren't the Rivain people close to black?

They are fantasy Spain. I don't know what you consider black, but i would say black people originate from Affrica or south/middle America, so no, they aren't.

Rivain's are Black.
http://social.biowar...ex/4439470&lf=8

LOL at all the people who said black people didn't exist in Thedas. 

[Shadow Fox]

ziloe wrote...

darrylzero wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

At risk of getting my post edited, I would posit that the Qunari have supplanted the traditional role of the Caliphate in Medieval Europe based settings. A more advanced civilization invades with superior technology but foreign social/religious concepts and possessing a more collectivist lean. This in turn causes the western individualist nations to band together and push them back. Conquest and reconquest is met with moderate success and failure on both sides. It seems very analogous to me.

Pretty much the reason I think we won't see an analog to the Caliphate populated by black people, is that the analog already exists.

Much in the same way that elves and dwarves supplant various other nationalities and such.

I think that's right, but rather than closing them off I think it could raise interesting questions about what the idea of Africa would mean to Thedas.  When we want an African culture or an African character what are we asking for?  Is it the birthplace of humanity that appeals?  The phenotype?  The climate?

I think the Rivainis and their parent culture are probably the closest we are going to get.  They may have an origin that is as inspired by Polynesia as much as by Africa, but I think there are commonalities.  As Annihilator27 just reminded us (in David Gaider's words), they "have skin tones ranging from dark tan to ebony," and it may be that their parent culture in the Boeric Islands is on the darker-skinned part of that spectrum (lighter skin tones in Rivain itself possibly indicating a history of intermarriage with Thedosians).  They are caught in-between the Qunari and Thedosians in a way perhaps reminiscent of people of the Maghreb.  Excuse my laziness in simply quoting wikipedia, but consider the following (from the entry on the Berber people):

"Nonetheless, the Islamization and Arabization of the region was a complicated and lengthy processes. Whereas nomadic Berbers were quick to convert and assist the Arab conquerors, it was not until the 12th century, under the Almohad Dynasty, that the Christian, Jewish and animist communities of the Maghreb became marginalized."

Sounds familiar to me!  Of course, we don't know that the Rivainis will eventually be assimilated into either Andrastrian or Qunari traditions, but it certainly seems like a possibility.  And while the Rivaini history of spirituality is probably drawn from a number of sources, it seems likely that some of them are African.  

So, would a Rivaini character who exhibited dark enough skin and a clear enough preference for Rivaini spiritual tradition come close enough?  Would a Boeric Islander?  If that doesn't feel right, what would?

I think you're missing something though. Unless you attend these forums a lot, and religiously read the codex entries or the novels, none of this is known to the average player. And frankly, that's a problem.

I think most people look at Isabella and think she's black so no problem that I see.

And frankly I think if people are looking for evidence of real life  ethnic groups in a fantasy game I think they're the ones with the problem.

[Treacherous J Slither]

I'm all for more dark skin and all (I love Ioose wome-er uh Isabella!) but where is the east Asian representation in the DA universe? You can make east Asian Wardens/Hawkes in the character creator but i've never seen any in game. In DOA or DA2. None whatsoever.

That needs to change. As soon as possible.

[Overdosing]

You could basically make your Hawke or soon Inquisitor whatever race (Black, Hispanic, Asian skin tone) you want them to be. And all of the CPUs and characters that you are able to converse with are also diverse in skin color.

That probably will expand in the future of Dragon Age, or any BioWare game. Or any fantasy game for that matter.

[David Gaider]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And frankly I think if people are looking for evidence of real life  ethnic groups in a fantasy game I think they're the ones with the problem.

I don't think that's exactly fair.

What if the shoe was on the other foot, and a game you really liked was populated by nothing but black characters? You might be upset, or you might say "it's great that exists, but it's really not for me." And that'd be fine, as it would be a pretty unique game. But what if all such games had all-black casts, always? You don't think you would find yourself feeling thoughtlessly excluded and rendered invisible for no good reason? If your answer is no, I'd venture to say it's probably because you've never found yourself in that position.

It's perfectly reasonable for players to ask for more black characters in a world that has black people in it... if not for the sake of diversity alone, how about using the color palette we've chosen for ourselves? I, for one, look forward to being able to use the new engine to render a wider array of skin tones. I previously said that greater variety in races is something we would do where it's appropriate... and there are places where it's appropriate. So it'd be nice to go to some of them. "Human", after all, is a race that doesn't only come in one flavor.

[SpEcIaLRyAn]

David Gaider wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And frankly I think if people are looking for evidence of real life  ethnic groups in a fantasy game I think they're the ones with the problem.

I don't think that's exactly fair.

What if the shoe was on the other foot, and a game you really liked was populated by nothing but black characters? You might be upset, or you might say "it's great that exists, but it's really not for me." And that'd be fine, as it would be a pretty unique game. But what if all such games had all-black casts, always? You don't think you would find yourself feeling thoughtlessly excluded and rendered invisible for no good reason? If your answer is no, I'd venture to say it's probably because you've never found yourself in that position.

It's perfectly reasonable for players to ask for more black characters in a world that has black people in it... if not for the sake of diversity alone, how about using the color palette we've chosen for ourselves? I, for one, look forward to being able to use the new engine to render a wider array of skin tones. I previously said that greater variety in races is something we would do where it's appropriate... and there are places where it's appropriate. So it'd be nice to go to some of them. "Human", after all, is a race that doesn't only come in one flavor.

Well said David. I'm glad your putting more variety in races this time around where its appropriate and not just putting black or darker skinned characters in just to put them in.

[Palipride47]

David Gaider wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And frankly I think if people are looking for evidence of real life  ethnic groups in a fantasy game I think they're the ones with the problem.

I don't think that's exactly fair.

What if the shoe was on the other foot, and a game you really liked was populated by nothing but black characters? You might be upset, or you might say "it's great that exists, but it's really not for me." And that'd be fine, as it would be a pretty unique game. But what if all such games had all-black casts, always? You don't think you would find yourself feeling thoughtlessly excluded and rendered invisible for no good reason? If your answer is no, I'd venture to say it's probably because you've never found yourself in that position.

It's perfectly reasonable for players to ask for more black characters in a world that has black people in it... if not for the sake of diversity alone, how about using the color palette we've chosen for ourselves? I, for one, look forward to being able to use the new engine to render a wider array of skin tones. I previously said that greater variety in races is something we would do where it's appropriate... and there are places where it's appropriate. So it'd be nice to go to some of them. "Human", after all, is a race that doesn't only come in one flavor.

But honestly, this is fantastic to hear from developers of major video game companies, and why I love Bioware so much. <3

Modifié par Palipride47, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:04 .

[Battlebloodmage]

David Gaider wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And frankly I think if people are looking for evidence of real life  ethnic groups in a fantasy game I think they're the ones with the problem.

I don't think that's exactly fair.

What if the shoe was on the other foot, and a game you really liked was populated by nothing but black characters? You might be upset, or you might say "it's great that exists, but it's really not for me." And that'd be fine, as it would be a pretty unique game. But what if all such games had all-black casts, always? You don't think you would find yourself feeling thoughtlessly excluded and rendered invisible for no good reason? If your answer is no, I'd venture to say it's probably because you've never found yourself in that position.

It's perfectly reasonable for players to ask for more black characters in a world that has black people in it... if not for the sake of diversity alone, how about using the color palette we've chosen for ourselves? I, for one, look forward to being able to use the new engine to render a wider array of skin tones. I previously said that greater variety in races is something we would do where it's appropriate... and there are places where it's appropriate. So it'd be nice to go to some of them. "Human", after all, is a race that doesn't only come in one flavor.

Can I ask if the skin color applied to other races like elves as well? This has been on my mind for a while.

[Maria Caliban]

garresvokorion wrote...

i found ur man, OP

A) Tacky
Racist
C) Both A & B

I need help with this one guys.

[Ghost_Nappa]

@maria how about this as our lead man.

[AlexanderCousland]

1. Isabela represents Black, Duncan as well. You dont have to take my word for it, but you can take Gaider's. Check out the link :

http://www.youtube.c...ayer_detailpage Race Bending Panel


2. It's wonderful news that bioware is making a concerted effort to include people of ALL color's and sexual orientation.

3. I think most people who define the inclusion of a variety humans as "Token" or consider that representation "Pandering" or "Doing it for the sake of doing it" have the problem.

4. Earth is home to a variety of different skin tones and races. To me, Thedas is as well, projecting those skin tones into a form of media means a great deal to alot of people, which is why Bioware is a great company in the first place, making the inclusion of races a focal point in their games they have already reached out to a larger market.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 24 octobre 2012 - 04:50 .