320 réponses à ce sujet

[darrylzero]

ziloe wrote...

As lovely as this is, it's not clear to players as a known fact. If this is the case, I think Bioware should be displaying this with their new engine, and not just stating it in book format, etc. And hopefully, they do with another awesome and playable character.

ziloe wrote...

I think you're missing something though. Unless you attend these forums a lot, and religiously read the codex entries or the novels, none of this is known to the average player. And frankly, that's a problem.

Agreed on both points.  As far as I can tell, not even religiously reading the codexes would be sufficient -- much of this is only available from developer forum posts.  So, I definitely hear where you're coming from.  I would be happier if the ethnic/racial diversity of Thedas was more clear, and I would like the chance to role-play human characters that are suffer from discrimination and exclusion because of where they're from and/or how they look.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

...frankly I think if people are looking for evidence of real life ethnic groups in a fantasy game I think they're the ones with the problem.

David Gaider's response is probably the most important thing here, but I'd just add that all fantasy bears a relationship to the real world.  Some people enjoy best fantasy that is as inventive and crazy and different from the real world as possible.  I like some that too (though my favorites from that camp, like China Mieville's work, still draw powerful connections to real world discrimination and oppression).  What I probably enjoy best, though, is the chance to rework real world themes and events in contexts that are just different enough to allow you to play with them a bit.  How are ethnic, racial, and/or social hierarchies maintained and reproduced?  How are they resisted?  How are toxic ideas that resulted in things like the transatlantic slave trade, colonialism, and genocide spread?  When and where are they rejected?  The settings I like best put those kinds of things front and center inventively, maybe even shedding new light on those questions by recasting them in such different circumstances.

It's just my thing, I know, but that's what I really like -- not the only thing by any means, but one of the really big things.  So, I'm very interested in what is similar and what is different about fantasy settings from the real world.  And when something is different from the real world, I'm very interested in why.  Along with that, I've come to believe personally that I think fantasy really should be less white and less Eurocentric, so I advocate for that too.  That said, I also recognize that people like what they like.  And while I think it's important to challenge yourself and examine why so many of us (including younger versions of myself) are primarily interested in white, Eurocentric fantasy, I also think there are limits as to how much you can force that, both in terms of the importance of people following their artistic vision without second-guessing themselves all the time and in more practical terms (such as sales).

So, maybe I am the one with the problem -- I wouldn't even necessarily dispute that language with regard to myself -- but I like what I like.  I don't expect anyone else to be as interested in these themes as I am, and I think Bioware does pretty well at treating these things fairly, but I'm still going to say my piece about how I think even video games should take these themes seriously and treat them as honestly as they can, including by being very careful about the danger of whitewashing.  

Modifié par darrylzero, 24 octobre 2012 - 04:37 .

[Palipride47]

 

As for Dragon Age 3, I don't want to see any "African" (Or whatever the Thedas equivalent would be) characters who are only there for the sake of it.
~~~~~
if they want to do more for human racial diversity for the characters. Make them interesting, strong characters rather than there being a person who just adds racial diversity with nothing interesting to say.
~~~~~
Personally, I dislike tokenism. Unless there is a lore-related, narrative reason for the presence of black Theodosians, I don't think BioWare should be inclusive for the sake of inclusiveness.
~~~~
Jacob is a african-american. There is no such thing in Dragon Age universe. And putting it in, just for the sake of being in there is waste of resources. Its the same problem like Merril and Fenris were forced into DA2, just because they were elves.I rather have a more unique companions then just *fillers* or *tokens* that are in game just for the sake of being there
~~~~
Yes, we need the token black guy, and a fat black woman doing the sister act, maybe get whoopi in on this.

Somehow, I feel like changing every instance of "black" to "white" would prove my points (about the "normality" of white) and make me angry. 
Why is a "pointless" white NPC no biggie, but a black or other non-white skin color "needs a reason" to be in a game? 

<_<

EDIT: I'm adding more as I find them, because I can

darrylzero wrote...

...What I probably enjoy best, though, is the chance to rework real world themes and events in contexts that are just different enough to allow you to play with them a bit....The settings I like best put those kinds of questions front and center inventively, maybe even shedding new light on those questions by recasting them in such different circumstances.

It's just my thing, I know, but that's what I really like -- not the only thing by any means, but one of the really big things.  So, I'm very interested in what is similar and what is different about fantasy settings from the real world.  And when something is different from the real world, I'm very interested in why. Along with that, I've come to believe personally that I think fantasy really should be less white and less Eurocentric, so I advocate for that too.

That said, I also recognize that people like what they like. And while I think it's important to challenge yourself and examine why so many of us (including younger versions of myself) are primarily interested in white, Eurocentric fantasy, I also think there are limits as to how much you can force that, both in terms of the importance of people following their artistic vision without second-guessing themselves all the time and in more practical terms (such as sales).

So, maybe I am the one with the problem -- I wouldn't even necessarily dispute that language with regard to myself -- but I like what I like.  I don't expect anyone else to be as interested in these themes as I am, and I think Bioware does pretty well at treating these things fairly, but I'm still going to say my piece about how I think even video games should take these themes seriously and treat them as honestly as they can, including by being very careful about the danger of whitewashing.  

I bolded and snipped, but your entire answer was awesome. Truckloads of awesome. 

Modifié par Palipride47, 24 octobre 2012 - 07:28 .

[darrylzero]

Palipride47 wrote...

I bolded and snipped, but your entire answer was awesome. Truckloads of awesome. 

Awwwww, thanks.  Seriously, that's very sweet.

[Shadow Fox]

darrylzero wrote...

ziloe wrote...

As lovely as this is, it's not clear to players as a known fact. If this is the case, I think Bioware should be displaying this with their new engine, and not just stating it in book format, etc. And hopefully, they do with another awesome and playable character.

ziloe wrote...

I think you're missing something though. Unless you attend these forums a lot, and religiously read the codex entries or the novels, none of this is known to the average player. And frankly, that's a problem.

Agreed on both points.  As far as I can tell, not even religiously reading the codexes would be sufficient -- much of this is only available from developer forum posts.  So, I definitely hear where you're coming from.  I would be happier if the ethnic/racial diversity of Thedas was more clear, and I would like the chance to role-play human characters that are suffer from discrimination and exclusion because of where they're from and/or how they look.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

...frankly I think if people are looking for evidence of real life ethnic groups in a fantasy game I think they're the ones with the problem.

David Gaider's response is probably the most important thing here, but I'd just add that all fantasy bears a relationship to the real world.  Some people enjoy best fantasy that is as inventive and crazy and different from the real world as possible.  I like some that too (though my favorites from that camp, like China Mieville's work, still draw powerful connections to real world discrimination and oppression).  What I probably enjoy best, though, is the chance to rework real world themes and events in contexts that are just different enough to allow you to play with them a bit.  How are ethnic, racial, and/or social hierarchies maintained and reproduced?  How are they resisted?  How are toxic ideas that resulted in things like the transatlantic slave trade, colonialism, and genocide spread?  When and where are they rejected?  The settings I like best put those kinds of things front and center inventively, maybe even shedding new light on those questions by recasting them in such different circumstances.

It's just my thing, I know, but that's what I really like -- not the only thing by any means, but one of the really big things.  So, I'm very interested in what is similar and what is different about fantasy settings from the real world.  And when something is different from the real world, I'm very interested in why.  Along with that, I've come to believe personally that I think fantasy really should be less white and less Eurocentric, so I advocate for that too.  That said, I also recognize that people like what they like.  And while I think it's important to challenge yourself and examine why so many of us (including younger versions of myself) are primarily interested in white, Eurocentric fantasy, I also think there are limits as to how much you can force that, both in terms of the importance of people following their artistic vision without second-guessing themselves all the time and in more practical terms (such as sales).

So, maybe I am the one with the problem -- I wouldn't even necessarily dispute that language with regard to myself -- but I like what I like.  I don't expect anyone else to be as interested in these themes as I am, and I think Bioware does pretty well at treating these things fairly, but I'm still going to say my piece about how I think even video games should take these themes seriously and treat them as honestly as they can, including by being very careful about the danger of whitewashing.  

They are dark skinned people in Thedas and the protaganinst can be made dark skined as well and the elves are pretty much the black people of Thedas in regards to they're social standing and treatment by the general populance.

[Shadow Fox]

David Gaider wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And frankly I think if people are looking for evidence of real life  ethnic groups in a fantasy game I think they're the ones with the problem.

I don't think that's exactly fair.

What if the shoe was on the other foot, and a game you really liked was populated by nothing but black characters? You might be upset, or you might say "it's great that exists, but it's really not for me." And that'd be fine, as it would be a pretty unique game. But what if all such games had all-black casts, always? You don't think you would find yourself feeling thoughtlessly excluded and rendered invisible for no good reason? If your answer is no, I'd venture to say it's probably because you've never found yourself in that position.

It's perfectly reasonable for players to ask for more black characters in a world that has black people in it... if not for the sake of diversity alone, how about using the color palette we've chosen for ourselves? I, for one, look forward to being able to use the new engine to render a wider array of skin tones. I previously said that greater variety in races is something we would do where it's appropriate... and there are places where it's appropriate. So it'd be nice to go to some of them. "Human", after all, is a race that doesn't only come in one flavor.

What about Asian or Latin gamers shouldn't they get representation too?The world isn't just split between whites and blacks and it's not the people who want to see more characters that look like them that  I have an issue with that's understandable it's the people who make it an issue about race that irritate me. 

[ziloe]

David Gaider wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And frankly I think if people are looking for evidence of real life  ethnic groups in a fantasy game I think they're the ones with the problem.

I don't think that's exactly fair.

What if the shoe was on the other foot, and a game you really liked was populated by nothing but black characters? You might be upset, or you might say "it's great that exists, but it's really not for me." And that'd be fine, as it would be a pretty unique game. But what if all such games had all-black casts, always? You don't think you would find yourself feeling thoughtlessly excluded and rendered invisible for no good reason? If your answer is no, I'd venture to say it's probably because you've never found yourself in that position.

It's perfectly reasonable for players to ask for more black characters in a world that has black people in it... if not for the sake of diversity alone, how about using the color palette we've chosen for ourselves? I, for one, look forward to being able to use the new engine to render a wider array of skin tones. I previously said that greater variety in races is something we would do where it's appropriate... and there are places where it's appropriate. So it'd be nice to go to some of them. "Human", after all, is a race that doesn't only come in one flavor.

I have to say I'm really pleased to see your participation in the thread, Mr. Gaider. Means a lot to see your response, as I don't see that often in my threads. Still, it's nice to know you guys are listening. It's probably my favourite part of this forum in general, simply because you guys do partipate.  

You should definitely check out the ideas someone posted for the Fog warriors, if you haven't already.

[CuriousArtemis]

Awesome response from Mr. Gaider. It's sad threads like this even have to exist... that people actually argue for exclusion lol But I shouldn't be shocked.

[AlexanderCousland]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...


They are dark skinned people in Thedas and the protaganinst can be made dark skined as well and the elves are pretty much the black people of Thedas in regards to they're social standing and treatment by the general populance.

Do explain? I wouldnt consider Elves the black people of thedas, they are not the biggest, strongest or fastest,  Black people  havent forgotten their own culture,and Elves most certainly do not have anyone in a position of power.  so your correlation throws me off a tad. Maybe the Slave thing, but then again, point out a race who wasnt subjected to slavery.  

Modifié par FreshIstay, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:35 .

[ziloe]

Rojahar wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

What about Asian or Latin gamers shouldn't they get representation too?The world isn't just split between whites and blacks and it's not the people who want to see more characters that look like them that  I have an issue with that's understandable it's the people who make it an issue about race that irritate me. 

I'm sure he was just using black and white for the sake of the examples. Overall, I think his point is that more diverse representation is their desire.

Definitely. I'm glad someone else understands this. I've already brought up the issue using other examples as well, like that of the last airbender movie, etc. So, it's unfortunate when people nitpick so heavily, when the idea is to have different cultures represented in a positive manner. In this case, I'd like to see another prominent role of a black character, who we actually use on our team, and not just as a mentor/father figure aka Anderson. But that's not to say others shouldn't be there as well. 

Modifié par ziloe, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:36 .

[Vandicus]

David Gaider wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And frankly I think if people are looking for evidence of real life  ethnic groups in a fantasy game I think they're the ones with the problem.

I don't think that's exactly fair.

What if the shoe was on the other foot, and a game you really liked was populated by nothing but black characters? You might be upset, or you might say "it's great that exists, but it's really not for me." And that'd be fine, as it would be a pretty unique game. But what if all such games had all-black casts, always? You don't think you would find yourself feeling thoughtlessly excluded and rendered invisible for no good reason? If your answer is no, I'd venture to say it's probably because you've never found yourself in that position.

It's perfectly reasonable for players to ask for more black characters in a world that has black people in it... if not for the sake of diversity alone, how about using the color palette we've chosen for ourselves? I, for one, look forward to being able to use the new engine to render a wider array of skin tones. I previously said that greater variety in races is something we would do where it's appropriate... and there are places where it's appropriate. So it'd be nice to go to some of them. "Human", after all, is a race that doesn't only come in one flavor.

Well, speaking from the PoV of a person of mixed descent(at least in the sense of modern ethnicities, ignoring the fact that many older ethnic groups are now merged together into these much broader categories), I suppose I'm a full on example of a person whose "race" is not really represented much either in video gaming(half-"insert non-human race here" exists, but I don't think that can be considered a legitimate replacement any more than elf for Asians, or dwarves for Hispanics). I can honestly say I've never been bothered by it, or by race in general and it simply doesn't occur to me to question whether the absence of explicitly mixed-race characters is somehow racist. I would also observe that Asians, Hispanics, and Native Americans are represented even less frequently than Blacks in quite a few gaming genres from my personal experience. People don't often seem to request additional characters of those races. Not saying that there's anything wrong with such requests, just stating my observations.

[Icesong]

Elves are obviously Jews.

[Shadow Fox]

Vandicus wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And frankly I think if people are looking for evidence of real life  ethnic groups in a fantasy game I think they're the ones with the problem.

I don't think that's exactly fair.

What if the shoe was on the other foot, and a game you really liked was populated by nothing but black characters? You might be upset, or you might say "it's great that exists, but it's really not for me." And that'd be fine, as it would be a pretty unique game. But what if all such games had all-black casts, always? You don't think you would find yourself feeling thoughtlessly excluded and rendered invisible for no good reason? If your answer is no, I'd venture to say it's probably because you've never found yourself in that position.

It's perfectly reasonable for players to ask for more black characters in a world that has black people in it... if not for the sake of diversity alone, how about using the color palette we've chosen for ourselves? I, for one, look forward to being able to use the new engine to render a wider array of skin tones. I previously said that greater variety in races is something we would do where it's appropriate... and there are places where it's appropriate. So it'd be nice to go to some of them. "Human", after all, is a race that doesn't only come in one flavor.

Well, speaking from the PoV of a person of mixed descent(at least in the sense of modern ethnicities, ignoring the fact that many older ethnic groups are now merged together into these much broader categories), I suppose I'm a full on example of a person whose "race" is not really represented much either in video gaming(half-"insert non-human race here" exists, but I don't think that can be considered a legitimate replacement any more than elf for Asians, or dwarves for Hispanics). I can honestly say I've never been bothered by it, or by race in general and it simply doesn't occur to me to question whether the absence of explicitly mixed-race characters is somehow racist. I would also observe that Asians, Hispanics, and Native Americans are represented even less frequently than Blacks in quite a few gaming genres from my personal experience. People don't often seem to request additional characters of those races. Not saying that there's anything wrong with such requests, just stating my observations.

That's pretty much my thoughts.

[ziloe]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And frankly I think if people are looking for evidence of real life  ethnic groups in a fantasy game I think they're the ones with the problem.

I don't think that's exactly fair.

What if the shoe was on the other foot, and a game you really liked was populated by nothing but black characters? You might be upset, or you might say "it's great that exists, but it's really not for me." And that'd be fine, as it would be a pretty unique game. But what if all such games had all-black casts, always? You don't think you would find yourself feeling thoughtlessly excluded and rendered invisible for no good reason? If your answer is no, I'd venture to say it's probably because you've never found yourself in that position.

It's perfectly reasonable for players to ask for more black characters in a world that has black people in it... if not for the sake of diversity alone, how about using the color palette we've chosen for ourselves? I, for one, look forward to being able to use the new engine to render a wider array of skin tones. I previously said that greater variety in races is something we would do where it's appropriate... and there are places where it's appropriate. So it'd be nice to go to some of them. "Human", after all, is a race that doesn't only come in one flavor.

Well, speaking from the PoV of a person of mixed descent(at least in the sense of modern ethnicities, ignoring the fact that many older ethnic groups are now merged together into these much broader categories), I suppose I'm a full on example of a person whose "race" is not really represented much either in video gaming(half-"insert non-human race here" exists, but I don't think that can be considered a legitimate replacement any more than elf for Asians, or dwarves for Hispanics). I can honestly say I've never been bothered by it, or by race in general and it simply doesn't occur to me to question whether the absence of explicitly mixed-race characters is somehow racist. I would also observe that Asians, Hispanics, and Native Americans are represented even less frequently than Blacks in quite a few gaming genres from my personal experience. People don't often seem to request additional characters of those races. Not saying that there's anything wrong with such requests, just stating my observations.

That's pretty much my thoughts.

It doesn't mean to discount how other people feel about it. Just because you sway one way, and may not feel any issue, doesn't mean that the issue doesn't exist. 

[AlexanderCousland]

ziloe wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And frankly I think if people are looking for evidence of real life  ethnic groups in a fantasy game I think they're the ones with the problem.

I don't think that's exactly fair.

What if the shoe was on the other foot, and a game you really liked was populated by nothing but black characters? You might be upset, or you might say "it's great that exists, but it's really not for me." And that'd be fine, as it would be a pretty unique game. But what if all such games had all-black casts, always? You don't think you would find yourself feeling thoughtlessly excluded and rendered invisible for no good reason? If your answer is no, I'd venture to say it's probably because you've never found yourself in that position.

It's perfectly reasonable for players to ask for more black characters in a world that has black people in it... if not for the sake of diversity alone, how about using the color palette we've chosen for ourselves? I, for one, look forward to being able to use the new engine to render a wider array of skin tones. I previously said that greater variety in races is something we would do where it's appropriate... and there are places where it's appropriate. So it'd be nice to go to some of them. "Human", after all, is a race that doesn't only come in one flavor.

Well, speaking from the PoV of a person of mixed descent(at least in the sense of modern ethnicities, ignoring the fact that many older ethnic groups are now merged together into these much broader categories), I suppose I'm a full on example of a person whose "race" is not really represented much either in video gaming(half-"insert non-human race here" exists, but I don't think that can be considered a legitimate replacement any more than elf for Asians, or dwarves for Hispanics). I can honestly say I've never been bothered by it, or by race in general and it simply doesn't occur to me to question whether the absence of explicitly mixed-race characters is somehow racist. I would also observe that Asians, Hispanics, and Native Americans are represented even less frequently than Blacks in quite a few gaming genres from my personal experience. People don't often seem to request additional characters of those races. Not saying that there's anything wrong with such requests, just stating my observations.

That's pretty much my thoughts.

It doesn't mean to discount how other people feel about it. Just because you sway one way, and may not feel any issue, doesn't mean that the issue doesn't exist. 

Exactly.

If the issue didnt exist then I highly doubt we would be having a discussion about it now. In fact, we would be mind boggled if someone was even reffered to by the tone of their skin, If the issue didnt exist.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:02 .

[Sharn01]

David Gaider wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And frankly I think if people are looking for evidence of real life  ethnic groups in a fantasy game I think they're the ones with the problem.

I don't think that's exactly fair.

What if the shoe was on the other foot, and a game you really liked was populated by nothing but black characters? You might be upset, or you might say "it's great that exists, but it's really not for me." And that'd be fine, as it would be a pretty unique game. But what if all such games had all-black casts, always? You don't think you would find yourself feeling thoughtlessly excluded and rendered invisible for no good reason? If your answer is no, I'd venture to say it's probably because you've never found yourself in that position.

It's perfectly reasonable for players to ask for more black characters in a world that has black people in it... if not for the sake of diversity alone, how about using the color palette we've chosen for ourselves? I, for one, look forward to being able to use the new engine to render a wider array of skin tones. I previously said that greater variety in races is something we would do where it's appropriate... and there are places where it's appropriate. So it'd be nice to go to some of them. "Human", after all, is a race that doesn't only come in one flavor.

Nice post, very well said.

[DaringMoosejaw]

Eh, I'm not sure I can agree with Gaider. Me, personally? I don't really care about the ethnicity of characters in games. I'd be fine if they were white, black, asian or purple - so long as it made sense. I'd be totally fine if someone actually made a fantasy game made out of - say - an amalgamation of actual, real African folklore and actually ran with it. It'd be very interesting and actually UNIQUE and I wouldn't have a problem if everybody in that entire game was black or I was forced to make a black PC. You don't really hear anyone complain that JRPGs are loaded with asian people and how they wish there were more white people.

[Scott Sion]

https://encrypted-tb...42ZDFZaZKwba7tQ

I agree, we need more Black characters.

[DaringMoosejaw]

Rojahar wrote...

Is there anything that wouldn't make sense about more prominent non-white characters in Dragon Age? What's to disagree with DG about? You don't believe that some people do care?

It was done poorly with Jacob. He was pretty much the only one of any importance (aside from Anderson) If you're going to diversify your game if that's your intent, actually do it instead of having a token one or two characters.

Well, there was a Bioware WRPG called Jade Empire.

Not African! But that's a basic gist of what I meant, it'd be nice to see more of those games. I've never played it myself, but I haven't heard anyone complain about there not being enough white people in it.

There are JRPGs that aren't mostly white people? What?

They speak Japanese! Doesn't seem too white to me - I guess you could argue the art-style makes them seem 'white', but I was always under the tacit and sometimes sort of obvious impression they were all asian.

[Pauravi]

ziloe wrote...

I've found it odd in that most RPGs I've played, there's rarely an interesting black character. I know a lot of people weren't crazy about Jacob, but at least he proved that in the future, black people still existed.

Of the black characters in ME you choose Jacob as your representative?
Anderson was there from the very beginning, and he is a complete and total bad****.

[Pauravi]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Jacob is a african-american. There is no such thing in Dragon Age universe. And putting it in, just for the sake of being in there is waste of resources.

I agree with you there.  Thedas has its own races.  Add them where appropriate.

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Its the same problem like Merril and Fenris were forced into DA2, just because they were elves.

Wat??  O_o

How did you come to the conclusion that Merrill is a "token elf"?
I thought she was a wonderfully written, funny, and endearing character, and brought out great dialogues from the other characters during party banter.  I had her in my party at almost all times.

[AlexanderCousland]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Jacob is a african-american. There is no such thing in Dragon Age universe. And putting it in, just for the sake of being in there is waste of resources.

Pauravi wrote...


I agree with you there.  Thedas has its own races.  Add them where appropriate.

Correct me if Im wrong, but you seem to be implying that Human's in Thedas should only come in one skin color. or Darker Skinned People are not Human In Thedas. Duncan and Isabela are pretty good character's, and I find it distasteful that you can find it within yourself to actually determine wether or not the inclusion of darker skinned individual's is "appropriate".  Im certainly glad you all dont make final descions.

[AlexanderCousland]

plnero wrote...

https://encrypted-tb...42ZDFZaZKwba7tQ

I agree, we need more Black characters.

You with a Full working mind, acutally thought out this post, found a link to a picture then proceeded to click the submit button with a intention of being either funny or sarcastic.

People are asking for the Inclusion of other skin tones...Not just black.  
(and those are African People not Black)

Modifié par FreshIstay, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:50 .