112 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

Zecele wrote...

And yet he did.

He did not only draw first, he swung first.

Well to be fair Duncan was closing in on him with the cup extended as if he was going to force him to drink it. He'd just seen that kill a man.

Not quite.  Duncan was closing on him with KNIFE extended.

[ReubenLiew]

A drawn sword is far more dangerous than the blood.

[MyKingdomCold]

OK. Let's say Duncan doesn't kill him. What should be done with him?

- lock him next to that prisoner who wanted food?

-put him through the Joining

if he dies, oh well

but if he lived, I can imagine he would be a little ticked off. Plus, from talking to him he doesn't seem to be "all there", so maybe he would "accidentally" leak the details of the Joining

[ReubenLiew]

Taleroth wrote...
Not quite.  Duncan was closing on him with KNIFE extended.

AFTER Jory drew his sword.

In the end we're all going to argue this back and forth, so I'm just going to continue being funny again, kkthxbai!

[menasure]

well if it's not simply the reflex from soldiers who take no chance when it comes to their own lives and if Duncan would supposedly be that good with a blade that he could disarm Ser Jory instead of killing him in one blow then i would have just put him in the regular army instead. preferably in the front line so he does not get a chance to run lol.
no i am not really being heartless, extraordinary circumstances require extraordinary measures because the alternative is that bad.

Modifié par menasure, 31 décembre 2009 - 05:37 .

[Taleroth]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
Not quite.  Duncan was closing on him with KNIFE extended.

AFTER Jory drew his sword.

In the end we're all going to argue this back and forth, so I'm just going to continue being funny again, kkthxbai!

Whereas Jory stepped back and Duncan stepped forward. 

[ReubenLiew]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

OK. Let's say Duncan doesn't kill him. What should be done with him?
- lock him next to that prisoner who wanted food?
-put him through the Joining
if he dies, oh well
but if he lived, I can imagine he would be a little ticked off. Plus, from talking to him he doesn't seem to be "all there", so maybe he would "accidentally" leak the details of the Joining

If anyone who's ever read Gav Thorpe's Dark Angel the situation is quite similar. Killing an unwilling participant is not only for the good of the Wardens, is so that the participant is not shamed and ridiculed, being branded a coward and would be laughed off any battlefield by the other soldiers.

[ReubenLiew]

Taleroth wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
Not quite.  Duncan was closing on him with KNIFE extended.

AFTER Jory drew his sword.

In the end we're all going to argue this back and forth, so I'm just going to continue being funny again, kkthxbai!

Whereas Jory stepped back and Duncan stepped forward. 

If I step back and draw a gun, it would be a far more challenging pose than stepping forward with crack that might kill you.

[Taleroth]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
Not quite.  Duncan was closing on him with KNIFE extended.

AFTER Jory drew his sword.

In the end we're all going to argue this back and forth, so I'm just going to continue being funny again, kkthxbai!

Whereas Jory stepped back and Duncan stepped forward. 

If I step back and draw a gun, it would be a far more challenging pose than stepping forward with crack that might kill you.

So, you're saying Jory had a gun?

I think it's pretty obvious to everyone Jory wasn't backing up to line up his shot.

Modifié par Taleroth, 31 décembre 2009 - 05:39 .

[Zecele]

If I step back and draw a gun, it would be a far more challenging pose than stepping forward with crack that might kill you.

But the question is if I kept coming forward with the crack that might kill you would you shoot the gun or wait to see what I did with the crack (keeping in mind you've already seen what I intend to do with the crack).

[Medhia Nox]

Only Alistair lives under the delusion that Grey Wardens are exclusively good.



In the Mage Origin Duncan make's it clear he has no problem with things like Blood Magic. Clearly, he has a problem with things like cowardice.. because Sir Jory was a HUGE coward.



If he had let Jory return to his wife and kid.. he risks having the word spread about what really goes on with the Wardens. So, first.. it starts in Ferelden. People start learning that Wardens drink Darkspawn blood to make some form of ritualistic pact.



- It looks like Blood Magic.

- It's a connection with Darkspawn.



The Warden's would have to rely on the right of conscription.. and then, things would get nasty as people would kill Wardens instead of do the Joining.



===



Now, I don't recall if Duncan tells them prior to the joining that they have a death sentence. I believe he does. So.. Sir Jory tells everyone that even if you become a Warden, you're doomed.



So, you let Jory live.. yes, that is the good choice. But, you've doomed all of Thedas because now the Wardens are hunted to extinction because they're Blood Magic using Darkspawn worshipping maniacs.. Oh, and then the Archdeamons come.. no Wardens.. everyone dies.



Great.. all because Duncan let a coward live.

[ReubenLiew]

Stepping back with a blade is still a pretty dangerous gesture, since he's surrounded, stepping back means he gets a better scope of his enemies. Stepping forward with the blood is clearly not as threathening as drawing a blade, even one drawn in retreat.



And since Jory did attack first, it means that he was willing to kill Duncan, well it means both were more than willing to kill to get his way.



Personally, I don't care either way. Jory had an irritating face anyway.

[Taleroth]

Medhia Nox wrote...

So, you let Jory live.. yes, that is the good choice. But, you've doomed all of Thedas because now the Wardens are hunted to extinction because they're Blood Magic using Darkspawn worshipping maniacs.. Oh, and then the Archdeamons come.. no Wardens.. everyone dies. 

I could just as easily claim Duncan killed Jory to prevent Jory from ruining the Grey Wardens' plan for world domination.  It would be equally asinine slippery slope nonsense.

If there's a group of foreign mercenaries so respected they're given full autonomy within a nation and the ability to draft kings, they're not going to suddenly go extinct because one guy ran around insulting them.  Next you'll be claiming that Alistair, as a rogue Templar, is going to cause the complete collapse of the Chantry because he's going around revealing that the Chantry actually teaches magic to non-mages.  Or that the Elves have to murder every single non-Elf (Wardens included) that comes near them or else they risk the secret that Keepers exist getting out and them being wiped to extinction.  And poor Lelianna, she used to be a SPY!  That's all sorts of trouble.  I don't know whether we should kill her to prevent her spilling secrets or we should kill everyone who hears her accent to keep them from spilling hers.

Modifié par Taleroth, 31 décembre 2009 - 06:01 .

[ReubenLiew]

Jory - Do you expect me to drink it?

Duncan - No, Ser Jory, I expect you, to die.

[Selej]

Jory was a coward, plain and simple. He was ****ing the entire time that everyone was gathering the vials of blood. You knew ahead of time that the ritual was dangerous and he even alludes to it. When he saw Daveth die, he flips out and draws his sword at Duncan. Then expects to threaten his way to preserve his own hide. Duncan did the right thing to skewer that coward.

[robertthebard]

Yes, I hate Duncan, but not for Jory the Coward. I hate Duncan for blackmailing my father while he bleeds out on the floor of our larder to make me a Grey Warden in exchange for saving me from Howe.



"I will not lie, we Grey Wardens pay a heavy price to become what we are, and Fate may decree that you pay your price now, rather than later".



Seems like a pretty fair warning that you could possibly not walk away from the Joining, to which Jory the Coward replies, "I agree, let's have it done". Yeah, then when he sees that it's not just mysterious mumbo jumbo to make him nervous, he decides that drawing steel is better. He had a good death. The illusion that he was going to be able to just return to his family, after becoming a Grey Warden, with an active Blight cracks me up to no end. The only NPC in the game more delusional than Jory is Alistair.

[menasure]

robertthebard wrote...

Yes, I hate Duncan, but not for Jory the Coward. I hate Duncan for blackmailing my father while he bleeds out on the floor of our larder to make me a Grey Warden in exchange for saving me from Howe.

"I will not lie, we Grey Wardens pay a heavy price to become what we are, and Fate may decree that you pay your price now, rather than later".

Seems like a pretty fair warning that you could possibly not walk away from the Joining, to which Jory the Coward replies, "I agree, let's have it done". Yeah, then when he sees that it's not just mysterious mumbo jumbo to make him nervous, he decides that drawing steel is better. He had a good death. The illusion that he was going to be able to just return to his family, after becoming a Grey Warden, with an active Blight cracks me up to no end. The only NPC in the game more delusional than Jory is Alistair.

well to be fair not every character gets the same amount or quality of info. one of my characters was very reluctant to join the wardens but eventually even if you would hate everything they stand for you have no choice but to join. it should be clear though that nobody really can refuse becoming a grey warden without facing the consequences, whether you see them as good or not. for whatever reason -like you put it: a delusion- Ser Jory did eventually that and payed the price.
it is like being a roman gladiator: once you are in the arena either you or your opponent are going to die. just refusing to fight only settles who dies faster, no matter which morality your action had.

Modifié par menasure, 31 décembre 2009 - 06:36 .

[Medhia Nox]

Taleroth.. have you completed the game?


You are aware that the Wardens are the ONLY people who can defeat an Archdemon. Not.. noble kings or great warriors. Not powerful wizards.. or pious clerics. Wardens.. that's it. The world needs the Wardens.. at least for 2 - 3? more Archdemons. Needs them.. or it's over. It's non-negotiable.

And it's not "insulting" them.. it's undermining who this orginization is. He's not saying "Wardens are jerks." He would be, could be, saying that "These people practice dangerous blood magic." Have you seen the reaction people in Ferelden have to blood magic? It isn't pleasant.

Robertthebard: "The only NPC in the game more delusional than Jory is Alistair."

Amen to that statement.

My only thing is Robert.. what if he just grabbed Sir Gilmor and left you there? The story would be over. You wouldn't hate him.. he wouldn't have blackmailed you.. and your character would be dead. His mission is to secure Ferelden/Thedas from an evil that is unstoppable unless there are Grey Wardens. He HAS to find Grey Wardens.. and he needs to survive the human noble origin.. or he risks letting the Archdemon destroy the world.

Your parents.. or Thedas. It's not a "good" choice.. and as a RP I could understand why you might hate him for it.. but I find it very believable and even reasonable.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 31 décembre 2009 - 06:46 .

[robertthebard]

menasure wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Yes, I hate Duncan, but not for Jory the Coward. I hate Duncan for blackmailing my father while he bleeds out on the floor of our larder to make me a Grey Warden in exchange for saving me from Howe.

"I will not lie, we Grey Wardens pay a heavy price to become what we are, and Fate may decree that you pay your price now, rather than later".

Seems like a pretty fair warning that you could possibly not walk away from the Joining, to which Jory the Coward replies, "I agree, let's have it done". Yeah, then when he sees that it's not just mysterious mumbo jumbo to make him nervous, he decides that drawing steel is better. He had a good death. The illusion that he was going to be able to just return to his family, after becoming a Grey Warden, with an active Blight cracks me up to no end. The only NPC in the game more delusional than Jory is Alistair.

well to be fair not every character gets the same amount or quality of info. one of my characters was very reluctant to join the wardens but eventually even if you would hate everything they stand for you have no choice but to join. it should be clear though that nobody really can refuse becoming a grey warden without facing the consequences, whether you see them as good or not. for whatever reason -like you put it: a delusion- Ser Jory did eventually that and payed the price.
it is like being a roman gladiator: once you are in the arena either you or your opponent are going to die. just refusing to fight only settles who dies faster, no matter which morality your action had.

This speech is given at the fire, just prior to going to the Joining, if you ask about the Joining, anyway.  If you ask about having second thoughts prior to Daveth taking the "Shot of Death", Duncan will tell you there's no turning back.

[Taleroth]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Taleroth.. have you completed the game?


You are aware that the Wardens are the ONLY people who can defeat an Archdemon. Not.. noble kings or great warriors. Not powerful wizards.. or pious clerics. Wardens.. that's it. The world needs the Wardens.. at least for 2 - 3? more Archdemons. Needs them.. or it's over. It's non-negotiable.

  Doesn't remotely contest my point in the least.  Doesn't even address my point.  At no point did my argument hinge on Wardens not being necessary.  But that the claim that they have so much to fear from Jory is unreasonably silly.

And it's not "insulting" them.. it's undermining who this orginization is. He's not saying "Wardens are jerks." He would be, could be, saying that "These people practice dangerous blood magic." Have you seen the reaction people in Ferelden have to blood magic? It isn't pleasant.

  They have a lot of unpleasant reactions.  They don't like magic, period.  They don't like apostates.  They don't like elves.  They don't like Qunari.  They don't like Orlesians.  They generally don't like anyone.  Amazingly, very few people absolutely have to kill you to keep their secret.  It's even more amazing that you can even get an chantry interfering, abomination friend, slaver dealer, blood mage helping, traitor to the throne of Fereldan to join your group and the Chantry and common folk don't wipe you out on the spot!  You should probably wipe out the Landsmeet at that point, because once you announce Loghain's crimes, then have him join the Wardens, you're letting out secrets, dude!

Hell, it's already an open secret that Grey Wardens permit Blood Magic.  When they start summoning demons in battle, it's likely to get out.


If their acceptance within Fereldan or Thedas is so tenuous that a single initiate can cause them to be wiped to extinction, then they've got gigantic problems already.  I can't fathom how the right of conscription is allowed of them at all.

Modifié par Taleroth, 31 décembre 2009 - 07:00 .

[robertthebard]

Taleroth wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Taleroth.. have you completed the game?


You are aware that the Wardens are the ONLY people who can defeat an Archdemon. Not.. noble kings or great warriors. Not powerful wizards.. or pious clerics. Wardens.. that's it. The world needs the Wardens.. at least for 2 - 3? more Archdemons. Needs them.. or it's over. It's non-negotiable.

  Doesn't remotely contest my point in the least.  Doesn't even address my point.  At no point did my argument hinge on Wardens not being necessary.  But that the claim that they have so much to fear from Jory is unreasonably silly.

And it's not "insulting" them.. it's undermining who this orginization is. He's not saying "Wardens are jerks." He would be, could be, saying that "These people practice dangerous blood magic." Have you seen the reaction people in Ferelden have to blood magic? It isn't pleasant.

  They have a lot of unpleasant reactions.  They don't like magic, period.  They don't like apostates.  They don't like elves.  They don't like Qunari.  They don't like Orlesians.  They generally don't like anyone.  Amazingly, this doesn't absolutely have to kill you to keep their secret.

Hell, it's already an open secret that Grey Wardens permit Blood Magic.  When they start summoning demons in battle, it's likely to get out.



If their acceptance within Fereldan or Thedas is so tenuous that a single initiate can cause them to be wiped to extinction, then they've got gigantic problems already.  I can't fathom how the right of conscription is allowed of them at all.

It's funny you mention using Blood Magic, and summoning demons et al, because if you kill Avernus, and have that simpering idiot, er, I mean Alistair with you, he'll go on and on how Blood Magic is forbidden.  Of course, this is also apparent at Redcliffe, if you use Jowan to do the ritual.  So, either Alistair is full of crap, and can't be trusted for anything, or some people have a more liberal view about what the Wardens do and don't do?

[menasure]

robertthebard wrote...
....
This speech is given at the fire, just prior to going to the Joining, if you ask about the Joining, anyway.  If you ask about having second thoughts prior to Daveth taking the "Shot of Death", Duncan will tell you there's no turning back.

yup i know that but it should have been clear by that time already, exept maybe for some do-gooders but the way you see things never changes the reality. i agree with you here really because a Ser will always understand what any army is all about and realize the consequence when he refuses to obey a command. if drawing his sword was not a panick reaction then he knew he had to try to fight his way out. he would be considered a deserter one way or the other and if he was captured alive he would be in the cage without food and water next to the other one in the camp.

as for the blood magic thing: one of the theories i posted in an other topic is that the leaders of the chantry are not really against blood magic but against the principle of magic dominating others, "magic is meant to serve man, not to be dominated by it" which you can interprete as: ok to use as long as they are the ones wielding the power of magic. just play the magic origin and you get an interesting part about some blood phylactery used to capture escaped mages of the circle which also means it is a way to control their mages actions. some might not consider it a form of blood magic but at the very least it is as much a means to an end as blood magic is a means to control others (the connection between blood magic and controling others is explicitly mentioned during the circle quest episode in game)

Modifié par menasure, 31 décembre 2009 - 07:12 .

[wonko33]

I think it matched well with Duncan's goals and personality. I had no problem with him doing it, I was just disappointed that I did not have a chance to tell him what I thought about or get in his face about it. (Well my dwarf would, but my mage and Dalish didn't give a rip)



And Allistar is such a wishy-washy-goody-two-shoes and he just stand there and says nothing? He gets pissed if I leave a beggar without a silver but has no problem with cold blooded murders?



I think it's a plot hole that we could not give Duncan a piece of our minds there. George Lucas probably would say that Jory shot first in the remake though.

[Greenphrog]

Yes. it could have been delat with a dozen diffrent ways. It also cuaght me by suprise, in no way saw it coming. If I could have acted would have been a short game for me!

On 2nd play going evil, more loot for me! ya ME!

Modifié par Greenphrog, 31 décembre 2009 - 07:23 .

[Ashbery]

Duncan was a thug before he was a Warden so the savage act is not a suprise if you read the books.The scene was brutal.