112 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarethus]

wonko33 wrote...

I think it matched well with Duncan's goals and personality. I had no problem with him doing it, I was just disappointed that I did not have a chance to tell him what I thought about or get in his face about it. (Well my dwarf would, but my mage and Dalish didn't give a rip)

And Allistar is such a wishy-washy-goody-two-shoes and he just stand there and says nothing? He gets pissed if I leave a beggar without a silver but has no problem with cold blooded murders?

I think it's a plot hole that we could not give Duncan a piece of our minds there. George Lucas probably would say that Jory shot first in the remake though.

Depends, he might have seen it already happen at his own joining and already been told by Duncan why it was necessary etc...

[robertthebard]

Sarethus wrote...

wonko33 wrote...

I think it matched well with Duncan's goals and personality. I had no problem with him doing it, I was just disappointed that I did not have a chance to tell him what I thought about or get in his face about it. (Well my dwarf would, but my mage and Dalish didn't give a rip)

And Allistar is such a wishy-washy-goody-two-shoes and he just stand there and says nothing? He gets pissed if I leave a beggar without a silver but has no problem with cold blooded murders?

I think it's a plot hole that we could not give Duncan a piece of our minds there. George Lucas probably would say that Jory shot first in the remake though.

Depends, he might have seen it already happen at his own joining and already been told by Duncan why it was necessary etc...

Nah, surrogate daddy did it, it's all good.

[ToJKa1]

BTW, Jory mentions that his wife is in Highever, but seeing what happened there, what are the chances of her being alive by the time of the Joining? A Human Noble could've had a dialog option about it, and that might've changed the outcome.

Then again, to me it sounded that he tried to use her as an excuse to back down from the Joining.

Modifié par ToJKa1, 31 décembre 2009 - 08:06 .

[arntson]

he could have sent jory out with the mabari hes not really that big of a coward when they talk of a joining at first he prolly thinks it would be a monster have to face he even says"ive never faced an enemy i couldnt defeat with my blade* also duncan advance on him with his own blade it was pretty clear his intent

[robertthebard]

arntson wrote...

he could have sent jory out with the mabari hes not really that big of a coward when they talk of a joining at first he prolly thinks it would be a monster have to face he even says"ive never faced an enemy i couldnt defeat with my blade* also duncan advance on him with his own blade it was pretty clear his intent

Did you not play the same game?  The whole idea of going out into the Kocari Wilds was to get darkspawn blood.  The very first time darkspawn are even suggested as a possible foe in the Wilds, Jory is ready to go back to camp.  We can debate whether he's a coward or not, but since he starts harping on not being a coward before it ever comes up, well, it's going to be a short conversation.  It seems ever more likely that he's never faced a foe that might want to kill him.

[Lord Abrasion]

Since Duncan was VERY explicit with all my player characters about what would happen if I agreed to join the Grey Wardens I can only assume that he was very explicit with Jory and Daveth as well.

I find that hard to believe. As far as I can recall, Douche-can never really tells you anything until it's too late. "It's necessary" doesn't constitute "VERY explicit" information in my book. Once it's time for the ritual, you don't really have a choice - drink or be gutted like a fish. Some choice <_< But what can you expect from a guy who blackmails a dying father into letting what may be his only surviving child join the Wardens. "Either your kid joins or he/she stays her and dies with you and your darling wife."

[NinjaWJ]

Hmm i like Duncan but i got kinda mad when he killed Ser Jory. I was like "damn lost an ally!"

[Lotion Soronarr]

I really don't believe that having the Warden secrets exposed would be as damaging as some believe.



Sure, a lot of people would be appalled, but a lot of people would act like Daveth and see it as a necessary sacrifice.

[Medhia Nox]

I'm not saying it would definately destroy them.. but look, the Harrowing is kept a secret. Why? Because mages would riot if they knew they were going to be forced to fight a demon or die.



Do Duncan hater's hate Irving? He supports the Harrowing with or without the Templars.



Letting the secret out is dangerous. That's all I'm getting at. In reality, it was just a story telling device to remove Jory.. but trying to rationalize the author's choice. I don't agree with it.. I think it is "dark and gritty" but I do understand the possible reasoning.



As for the PC.. every Origin creates a scenario where the PC would die were it not for Duncan. The Joining is a moot point.. either PC dies at end of Origin.. or 30 years later in the Deep Road (or fighting the Archdemon).



It's interesting that Jory is the only one that doesn't have a "Duncan saved me" motiff. Even Daveth was in a pickle when Duncan brought him on board (I really hope he's the Ostagar survivor.. though I admit it would take some fantasy story backtracking).



Even as a mage.. Jory is about to ****** his pants when he first meets you. The character is pathetic. I've already got one delusional idiot in my party (Alistair) I don't need two.. good riddance.

[menasure]

robertthebard wrote...

arntson wrote...

he could have sent jory out with the mabari hes not really that big of a coward when they talk of a joining at first he prolly thinks it would be a monster have to face he even says"ive never faced an enemy i couldnt defeat with my blade* also duncan advance on him with his own blade it was pretty clear his intent

Did you not play the same game?  The whole idea of going out into the Kocari Wilds was to get darkspawn blood.  The very first time darkspawn are even suggested as a possible foe in the Wilds, Jory is ready to go back to camp.  We can debate whether he's a coward or not, but since he starts harping on not being a coward before it ever comes up, well, it's going to be a short conversation.  It seems ever more likely that he's never faced a foe that might want to kill him.

well according to his dialogue Ser Jory won some tournament, probably the reason why duncan recruited him but as far as i know these tournaments in the middle ages were more or less controlled and fought with blunted weapons instead of sharpened ones. though serious accidents did happen the main prospect losing contenders faced was in most cases some bruises or maybe a few broken bones and a feeling of lost honor. brutal but not life threatening by default or no ruler would ever be mad enough to hold these tournaments on a regular basis ... the cost for the armies would have been too high.
on the other hand we have daveth who is a rogue type of guy, pretty much used to dealing with life threatening situations when things go wrong for him and he never hesitates undergoing the joining even knowing the possible outcome so in a way more brave than the supposed knight ever will be.
it is probably a contrast David Gaider was deliberately aiming for, just like he was aiming for a reaction by making Duncan kill Ser Jory under (morally) questionable circumstances.

Modifié par menasure, 31 décembre 2009 - 09:53 .

[heat2008]

Jory was stupid he knew what he was getting himself into when he decided to join the Wadens. He was being a **** right from the start. If he was so concerned about his wife and unborn child then he shouldn't have decided to go with Duncan in the first place. It was his choice to leave his family he was not forced.



Morever he should have known if he tried to abandon his choice what would happen. I'm pretty sure thy tell you what happens if you go back on your word. So it was either drink the blood and possibly live, or be killed. The second Duncan pulled his sword out I would have been like on second thought let me try the drink. At least he would have had a chance at living, but he chose to revolt and he got what he deserved. It was a pointlessly stupid death, fitting for a stupid stupid man.

[MorningBird]

From the perspective of my character, no, I did not hate Duncan.

Everything you've gone through--the Joining, a shortened life due to the taint--Duncan has been living with for 30 years (I say 30 because Alistair mentions he was about ready to head for the Deep Roads when the Blight reared its ugly head).

I've yet to read the DA novels, but it is possible that he too once had a family in Highever that he was forced to leave behind--that he did not know all of the details of the Joining until he reached the point of no return.  However, he sucked it up, and accepted the burden of becoming a Warden.  Can you blame him--a veteran Warden--for expecting you to do the same?

As for Ser Jory's death... as a city elf, I just could not sympathize with the character.  At least Daveth didn't stutter like a frightened lamb when he discovered my character was an elf.  Jory gave me the impression that he thought my character was unworthy of becoming a Warden, but was holding his tongue.

Jory also proved very early on that he doesn't have a good ear for listening.  Duncan told my elf straight away that Warden's have to put their families and past behind them in order to accomplish the greater good--which includes the possibility of dying.

So why is it that Jory persistently thinks only of his wife and child?  Either he wasn't listening to Duncan when he was recruited (likely thinking more about the glory he would obtain as a Warden than the severe burden that becoming one entails) or he planned to be selective about the Warden's various 'rules' straight from the get go.

I understand that it's extremely hard to just FORGET family (the PC certainly has enough opportunities to lament about theirs) but he could have at least made an effort to make it look as though he were more concerned with the dark spawn than his family.  If his family were his primary concern, he should have backed down from Duncan's offer and remained with them.

Grey Warden's have the right of conscription, but it appears they only really use it to keep criminals out of jail.  They don't like to use it often because it puts them at odds with people.  I doubt Duncan would have recruited Jory if he knew his thoughts rested more on his family than the approaching Blight.

Do cowards deserve to die?  I think the answer to that question relies heavily on the player.  I was not unhappy to see Jory go, and thought Duncan made the right chance at that moment.  If Jory had said, "This is weird, I want to go home" instead of, "Let's be done with this" maybe he'd still be alive.

Duncan shouldn't be blamed for Jory's cowardice in the face of death, imo.

[Freckles04]

MorningBird wrote...

I've yet to read the DA novels, but it is possible that he too once had a family in Highever that he was forced to leave behind--that he did not know all of the details of the Joining until he reached the point of no return.  However, he sucked it up, and accepted the burden of becoming a Warden.  Can you blame him--a veteran Warden--for expecting you to do the same?

In The Calling, we find out why/how Duncan was recruited. I won't give away the plot, but basically any "happy family life" was long over before he came to the attention of the Wardens, and his recruitment was much like Daveth's or the City Elf's. A little darker, though. I felt bad for young Duncan.

If you're a fan of the game, I strongly recommend the books. They add a lot of back story and character building.

[Kohaku]

Freckles04 wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

I've yet to read the DA novels, but it is possible that he too once had a family in Highever that he was forced to leave behind--that he did not know all of the details of the Joining until he reached the point of no return.  However, he sucked it up, and accepted the burden of becoming a Warden.  Can you blame him--a veteran Warden--for expecting you to do the same?

In The Calling, we find out why/how Duncan was recruited. I won't give away the plot, but basically any "happy family life" was long over before he came to the attention of the Wardens, and his recruitment was much like Daveth's or the City Elf's. A little darker, though. I felt bad for young Duncan.

If you're a fan of the game, I strongly recommend the books. They add a lot of back story and character building.

I just ordered them yesterday. I'm anxious to read them after hearing about them on these boards.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

It depends on which origins I play. I don't care that he kills Jory, Jory is an idiot. He volunteered and droned on about honor and glory.

But what my characters feel depends on their origin. Only human noble and city elf really resent him, because in both cases, they were forcibly recruited, especially the noble.

But Jory? Nah. I'm mad I couldn't murder knife him in the wilds.

[Kohaku]

I'm going to make a list of the murder knifing here. We all need to contribute.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 31 décembre 2009 - 11:08 .

[MorningBird]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

Freckles04 wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

I've yet to read the DA novels, but it is possible that he too once had a family in Highever that he was forced to leave behind--that he did not know all of the details of the Joining until he reached the point of no return.  However, he sucked it up, and accepted the burden of becoming a Warden.  Can you blame him--a veteran Warden--for expecting you to do the same?

In The Calling, we find out why/how Duncan was recruited. I won't give away the plot, but basically any "happy family life" was long over before he came to the attention of the Wardens, and his recruitment was much like Daveth's or the City Elf's. A little darker, though. I felt bad for young Duncan.

If you're a fan of the game, I strongly recommend the books. They add a lot of back story and character building.

I just ordered them yesterday. I'm anxious to read them after hearing about them on these boards.

Gaaaah, now I have to go order them too. *easily sold* Honestly, salemen are my worst nightmare.  I think they can sense that I'm a sucker the moment I walk by their stalls.  Its gotten to the point where I've got to stick headphones in my ears and turn my music up really loud so I can completely ignore them.

Can you only obtain them by ordering, or is it possible to find them in bookstores?

[Kohaku]

MorningBird wrote...

Gaaaah, now I have to go order them too. *easily sold* Honestly, salemen are my worst nightmare.  I think they can sense that I'm a sucker the moment I walk by their stalls.  Its gotten to the point where I've got to stick headphones in my ears and turn my music up really loud so I can completely ignore them.

Can you only obtain them by ordering, or is it possible to find them in bookstores?

Bookstores should be no problem. I found them in Barnes and Nobles. I just love Amazon.com and their pricing.

[MorningBird]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

Bookstores should be no problem. I found them in Barnes and Nobles. I just love Amazon.com and their pricing.

Awesome!  Thanks for the info! 

Umm... I'll let you all get back on topic now. *scurries away*

[heat2008]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

It depends on which origins I play. I don't care that he kills Jory, Jory is an idiot. He volunteered and droned on about honor and glory.

But what my characters feel depends on their origin. Only human noble and city elf really resent him, because in both cases, they were forcibly recruited, especially the noble.

But Jory? Nah. I'm mad I couldn't murder knife him in the wilds.

That's the one thing I wish the game would allow you to do. Some people just ****** me off and I wish I could take a knife to their throat. I wish you could attack any NPC you please kind of like in Fable 2, if that were possible any complaint I had about the game I could overlook since I could always just run down some poor unsuspecting townfolk. Maybe GTA has turned me into a sadist...

[Sialater]

First time through was as an Elf Mage. She didn't even blink at Jory's death. After all, she'd had a Templar who'd had a huge crush on her tell her he volunteered to kill her if she failed. She was all about secret rituals and understood the necessity.



Emma Cousland was a bit more appalled.



I'd guess Alistair would be used to secret rituals, too, considering Templars are till death do you part as well and guard their secrets as zealously as Grey Wardens or it would be common knowledge the Chantry's private army was a bunch of a junkies.

[Recidiva]

I hate Duncan's guts. I really do.



I think he's exactly what's wrong with the Grey Wardens.



I think making people into demons in a non-consent manner really does result in wiping out any other hero potential they might have had. You can't force people to be heroes. When you try, you make real heroes invalid.



I'm glad Shayle is in the story to point that out. There are real volunteer heroes. So I adore Shayle.

[Lord Abrasion]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm not saying it would definately destroy them.. but look, the Harrowing is kept a secret. Why? Because mages would riot if they knew they were going to be forced to fight a demon or die.

It's a rather well known fact that not all apprentices survive the Harrowing. The only secret is the nature of the test and in this case it's to preserve the integrity of it. Making that public knowledge would be like handing out answer keys to SATs - the test would become pointless since everyone would know the 'answer' and pass by default more or less.