112 réponses à ce sujet

[Squiggles1334]

Except the Harrowing involves facing off a demon with a test of willpower in the Fade, not a multiple choice test. I don't think an answer key is really going to help anyone pass in this case.

[Lord Abrasion]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

Except the Harrowing involves facing off a demon with a test of willpower in the Fade, not a multiple choice test. I don't think an answer key is really going to help anyone pass in this case.

Defeating the Rage Demon is not the real test. Mouse is. If everyone knew that, none would fall to the temptation of helping him out of the Fade.

[Squiggles1334]

Where do we find out that every single Harrowing has the same demon disguised as the mouse?

[Reader81]

If one person do a evil thing for greater good, they are no better than evil one. I guess.

[Sialater]

Doesn't matter if it's always Mouse. It's always going to be a demon trying to trick you to let him out into the world. The PC's is always a Pride Demon disguising itself as a mouse.





Wonder if that's a hint...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Reader81 wrote...

If one person do a evil thing for greater good, they are no better than evil one. I guess.

Utilitarians, consequentialists and those who consider intentions in the morality of an action, would all disagree with you.

And that's assuming that killing is necessarily "evil".

[Reader81]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Reader81 wrote...

If one person do a evil thing for greater good, they are no better than evil one. I guess.

Utilitarians, consequentialists and those who consider intentions in the morality of an action, would all disagree with you.

And that's assuming that killing is necessarily "evil".

Yes, that's killing is evil, indeed, if anyone disagree with this, I dare said they are a coward,  Duncan killing Jory to save Gray Warden's name  is a just coward in easy way to keep Gray Warden's Name for glory, so Gary Warden is no better than  darkspawn, if anyone do find out about Gray Warden's joining and want kill off Gray Warden because gray warden drinking blood, then they, too, are no better than darkspawn and gray warden.<_<

Maybe darkspawn want whip out mankind for greater good since they knew humankind are evil? There is no sure thing "Good" but only evil everywhere in this world. Doing evil deed for greater good, is just a lie and silly thing to said. You see "Good" is not to cause harm other, care for other at a present time, not in the past, or not in future, forget future, forget past, do not cause harm and care for other in present time is good, while evil is do not care for other but themself for gain, cause other harm, worry about future or past so doing present time a evil and thinking it's might be good in end, but it's wasn't but a lie.  Do them as they would do to you, if you kill them for greater good, you will be killed for greater good, I would think. Duncan not only harm jory, but his family as well as living without father, and husband, this is why Duncan should never get anyone who has family, duncan should only get people who has no life or no family, and or who doing a criminal, it's common sence unless his mind are blur and do not understand easy. He should turn down anyone who has a good life or family or other duty to other worldly thing want to join gray warden, if he care for other. If he didn't  turn down people but care only get many people in gray warden then he don't care for other, but care about gray warden, not people themself, and even he said safe for mankind, is just silly and lie, he failed to care for jory and his family, jory and his family is part of mankind, yet he had failed to keep mankind safe because that's small thing.

I think everyone want a action (evil) and have some fun job rather than boring life. So you see good is may be almost no existence but evil is almost all time in existence in this life. 

It's just a coward to do evil like killing jory rather then let's him live to save Gray Warden's Name in unseen future. What if world do understand truth of Gray Warden and did find out about gray Warden if let's jory live, maybe not all people would kill off gray Warden, but some might want gray Warden gone for good, but not everyone. Whatever let's jory live or not, world will find out about gray Warden in one way or other, there ton people will find out it and tell other, Gray warden can't hide forever.

I'm sorry it's just a coward to said jory is a coward so kill jory (it's evil clearlly, no mercy,  Duncan is try to force him to do evil thing in Jory's eye by drink blood, jory know it's evil to drink blood, he has a right to back down to do good, if he warning about other people about grey warden by drink blood, he do right thing too, no matter what. but however how world will do with grey warden is unknow, if world want destory grey warden then so be it, then world be destoryed by  darkspawn then later they get destoryed by something other and so go on, (Do them as they would do to you! ) Sady, it's seem that's way, unless your mind blur and do not understand what I'm said. I'm pity you! And I should had learn to be sorry and pity on people said it's for greater good while they doing evil because they worry about future too much and more important than a present time since thier mind do not understood or blur. Oh well, I can't blame them since my mind was like them long time ago but shame I  am seem enjoy evil as well, and I can't seem do good and right but evil, bah. 

I'm sorry people who said I'm doing good while killing other for greater good is far coward than any jory's normal coward, but I don't think jory is a coward, he or his mind is try to do what good or what right, how to pleased family, and country, ect.. many stuff on his mind, as if duncan do care for jory and his family and doing what is right, he would tell them full truth before taken him along to join grey warden, but duncan didn't and tell little bit truth, inside he just want many people who are good at combat join grey warden as he can, I think, and then last min while he has a blood of cup, then he tell them truth about joining, so this is not very truthful even duncan didn't lie, he just hold the truth until nearly he gave you cup of blood, so this is evil and not very truthful, not only that, as duncan forgot jory has a family and his duty to care for family and support, if jory is dead, who would support family and family might risk breaking part as well, this is may be evil of action as well, so this are not sure thing a greater of good, no matter what, if one want to do greater of good, they must master of doing good of present, not future or past, if they do, it's will later greater of good, like care for a tree, in end tree are great, but doing evil to tree for greater good, but in end there isn't tree since has not care for tree in present in first place, same apply to humankind, ect. 


Unless your mind is blur like most people, I guess I couldn't blame you since my mind was like blur long ago, I has been thinking bible, evil, good, study world little bit, try to study and understand at women's mind , ok it's creep, but I do want to know why women has weird stuff, why they don't want nice guys but want jerk guy, but I has learn that's nice guy wasn't nice guy, because they are try to gift or bride to get women love them like a whoring, but at that's time, man's mind don't understand why, even women don't understand, while jerk guys has charm and messy with women's mind, but in some way even jerk guys don't understand, you have to make them feel all warm by smooth word, but not too much,  or they think you might be players, anyhow, 

So if I were you, you should think those thing at least, if you understand those thing then you will should know why doing evil for greater good is very silly and lie as well it's don't make sense as well.

No hard feeling for long post.  

I has to put face iron in order so you might not sleeping while read those, though I shouldn't blame you since I do that sometime.      

[KnightofPhoenix]

Forgive me, but I can't understand what you are saying. No offense intented of course, but your English isn't that good and I need a lot of time to understand what you are saying. Again, no offense intended.

The only thing I seem to understand is that you don't believe that "good" exists but you believe that "evil" does. An interesting position. but one that can very easily be refuted. If there is no such thing as "good", then then how can you qualify anything as "evil" if you don't have something to measure it against.
A moral position necessarily involves at least 2 kinds of actions. One in accordance with your moral belief (that is "good"), and one contrary to your moral beliefs (that is "evil").

You say that "good" doesn't exist. That's a position that I share, we can never know what's truly "Good". But that implies that we may never know what's truly "evil" either. If you believe in "evil", then the contrary to what is "evil" is "good". I personally don't believe in either notions, or my understanding of them is very broad, as to allow me to be efficient and pragmatic in my decisions.  

You say that doing "evil" for the greater good is silly. I say that if that action helps the greater good, it cannot be qualified as evil. Simple example. A hijacked plane is loaded with a nuclear weapon and is goign to hit a city. You can't stop the plane, only destroy it, which will result in saving the city but killing the innocent passengers on the plane. The logical thing to do is to shoot down that plane. And such an action is not "evil". And I would qualify it as "good".  
If you believe that such an action is silly, then I am glad my security doesn't depend on you

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 janvier 2010 - 02:46 .

[tallon1982]

Warden Recruit: I pray to Andraste, let me die, but I do not. Now the evil of darkspawn take me.
Other recruit: How?
Warden Recruit: They will make me drink the blood of the darkspawn. Then I'll fall into the black sleep of the Grey Wardens.
PC Warden Recruit: What's that?
Warden Recruit: You become like them. We'll be alive... but like a nightmare. You drink blood, you not wake up from nightmare.

Couldn't resist it.

Modifié par tallon1982, 01 janvier 2010 - 02:50 .

[Squiggles1334]

tallon1982 wrote...

Warden Recruit: I pray to Andraste, let me die, but I do not. Now the evil of darkspawn take me.
Other recruit: How?
Warden Recruit: They will make me drink the blood of the darkspawn. Then I'll fall into the black sleep of the Grey Wardens.
PC Warden Recruit: What's that?
Warden Recruit: You become like them. We'll be alive... but like a nightmare. You drink blood, you not wake up from nightmare.

Couldn't resist it.

Hahaha, that was great. I presume the PC speaks with a thick Chinese accent, too.

Modifié par Squiggles1334, 01 janvier 2010 - 02:54 .

[tallon1982]

But of course! Though I want a cool hat and whip for a weapon

[Reader81]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Forgive me, but I can't understand what you are saying. No offense intented of course, but your English isn't that good and I need a lot of time to understand what you are saying. Again, no offense intended.

The only thing I seem to understand is that you don't believe that "good" exists but you believe that "evil" does. An interesting position. but one that can very easily be refuted. If there is no such thing as "good", then then how can you qualify anything as "evil" if you don't have something to measure it against.
A moral position necessarily involves at least 2 kinds of actions. One in accordance with your moral belief (that is "good"), and one contrary to your moral beliefs (that is "evil").

You say that "good" doesn't exist. That's a position that I share, we can never know what's truly "Good". But that implies that we may never know what's truly "evil" either. If you believe in "evil", then the contrary to what is "evil" is "good". I personally don't believe in either notions, or my understanding of them is very broad, as to allow me to be efficient and pragmatic in my decisions.  

You say that doing "evil" for the greater good is silly. I say that if that action helps the greater good, it cannot be qualified as evil. Simple example. A hijacked plane is loaded with a nuclear weapon and is goign to hit a city. You can't stop the plane, only destroy it, which will result in saving the city but killing the innocent passengers on the plane. The logical thing to do is to shoot down that plane. And such an action is not "evil". And I would qualify it as "good".  
If you believe that such an action is silly, then I am glad my security doesn't depend on you

I didn't said good don't exist but I said as if "good" almost don't exist, but I do understand what good and evil, but what you said about plane and city are still evil, in both way, true, if you didn't stop plane and let's plane hit city, you are evil, if you have power to stop, on other hand if you do shoot plane to stop hiting city, but there people who didn't part of evil plan in plane, it's then it's evil as well, so both way is evil, but none a good way, so it's is no way of greater good, so it's still evil, no matter how hard you doing good, it's still evil, so it's why I said good is as if they almost don't exist, but understand 'good and evil is there, yet we are still bond to do evil, no matter how good we try to do, it's still evil. Shoot is plane while people has nothing to do with plan hit city with plane for greater good is just lie, and joke as well, it's still evil beccause you shoot plane, not only you cause people harm in plane but thier family who wasn't on plane as well, you just can't said "it's good" while you hurting or cause someone pain, it's just lie and much more evil than said "I'm evil and shoot plane to save city."

Now the key is part, is why plane is hijacked? Why plan to hit that city? Why that city? Why choice that plane? Was that person who plan those angry in thier life, who cause thoe person angry? Everyone want a paid back, said person name "A" kill "B", then "C" angry because C love B very much then C kill A but D angry because D love A so D kill C for greater good, so go and on, maybe people who plan plane hit city think they doing a greater good, so people who love city shoot a plane for greater good to save city, then people who in plane's family want kill people who shoot plane go rage and plan back to start, so you see, no matter how hard, there is still evil in end, not a greater good. Only thing is greater of good, is seed a good in the first place and care for it. but if evil ruin a good seed, only way to keep greater good is not stop or paid back, just humble evil one. Yes it's very painful, most people don't want pain so they feel good to kill other to stop or paid back for "greater of good"

Though my english isn't good.  Sady, there seem there is no good while knew what is good but can't do it but always seem evil unless let's evil has it and get over it, but in end evil will lose. It's very hard to understand good and evil, but good are there, it's just can't be done like that's you have to do evil this or evil that. or so I though.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ok I don't want to argue too much, because I still can't understand what you are saying.

I agree there is no "good" that we know of for certain. That means there is no "evil" that we know of for certain. If you think cruelty is evil (as you demonstrated when you qualified Duncan's action as evil), then the opposite of cruelty, which is mercy is good.
I personally don't think that cruelty is always "evil". And I don't think mercy is always "good".
And I do not consider shooting down the plane to be an evil act at all. Whether I was on the plane, or living in the targeted city or even living far away. And I wouldn't think the action was evil even if my relatives were on the plane, as the passengers are going to die either way.

Let's just say we have different conceptions of morality and leave it at that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 janvier 2010 - 03:39 .

[Shamagar]

Duncan isn't an endearing character, imho. The entire forced conscription process he employs reminds me of those third world generals who travel from village to village taking young males over 18. If I were the Dalish Elf, I'd be pissed.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shamagar wrote...

Duncan isn't an endearing character, imho. The entire forced conscription process he employs reminds me of those third world generals who travel from village to village taking young males over 18. If I were the Dalish Elf, I'd be pissed.

Except that those third world generals do so to either take over the government or increase their political power, while siffoning millions of $ into Swiss bank accounts. While Duncan is recruiting only a few in order to defeat the blight. Doesn't seem the same to me.

And forced conscription is a method used by every country in a period of war or invasion.

[fchopin]

Yes what Duncan did was very bad, but there were no other options for the PC in the game so bioware messed up really.

[Reader81]

 How can you said don't same to you if Duncan do forced PC who do not wish to join grey warden like a third world generals who forced young male over 18 year old to join, no matter how few or larger it's seem same since force person who wish not to join, no matter how few or large. That's just seem a hypocrisy, I think. 

[fchopin]

Don’t understand what you said but i still say it was bad and bioware should have done this differently.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Reader81 wrote...

 How can you said don't same to you if Duncan do forced PC who do not wish to join grey warden like a third world generals who forced young male over 18 year old to join, no matter how few or larger it's seem same since force person who wish not to join, no matter how few or large. That's just seem a hypocrisy, I think. 

I don't know from what country you are from. But suppose your country is being invaded, God forbids. You, as a citizen over 18, will be forced to take up arms to defend your country, whether you want to or not. That doesn't only apply to third world countries, but to even first world and second world countries. If you desert from the military of your country, you will be shot dead. You think that's bad? Ok, but don't say it's only the Grey Wardens or third world generals who do this.

The generals are conrcipting a private military force for their own private interest and power. Duncan is concripting a military force to defeat the blight, not for his interest for he like all other Grey Wardens, are going to die soon. To honestly think that the two are comparable is just stupid.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 janvier 2010 - 04:03 .

[tallon1982]

Maybe they should have put Jory in the cage next to the starving deserter?

[KnightofPhoenix]

tallon1982 wrote...

Maybe they should have put Jory in the cage next to the starving deserter?

The deserter was going to get executed anyhow. So what's the difference?
The difference is. Taking Jory to prison will make the Grey Wardens look bad. Jory will yell why he deserted. Everyone will know what the Grey Wardens are. So it beats the entire point.

The only way to deal with Jory was to kill him immediately.   

[tallon1982]

Nah...you starve a man and he'll say anything for a scooby snack...But in all truth he was told several times there was no going back. He decided to jump ship and for a lot of countries that's punishable by death.



Btw Duncan was pretty much drafted himself. One must adapt and overcome to survive.

[Reader81]

Ah, I wonder if that's wise, if generals keeping doing conrcipting military force and there is many who don't want join military force, but if one are not willing to joing, and commander who would shot one who not willing to join or order those who do not want join military force in first place shot unwilling turn thier back on commander and shot commander? Unless they try to set a law they are not allow to talk how they join miliary? I find hard to believe if commander do force many who are unwilling join force and stay power unless it's good cause in their head. Would they won't turn on their on commander? I guess in this game, it's won't allow me turn back on duncan or kill duncan on his back if I'm playing noble before he die in battle since we seem walk alone and he has no bodyguard.

[Squiggles1334]

Tassiaw wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

It's funny you mention using Blood Magic, and summoning demons et al, because if you kill Avernus, and have that simpering idiot, er, I mean Alistair with you, he'll go on and on how Blood Magic is forbidden.  Of course, this is also apparent at Redcliffe, if you use Jowan to do the ritual.  So, either Alistair is full of crap, and can't be trusted for anything, or some people have a more liberal view about what the Wardens do and don't do?

You have to remember that Alistair isn't really a Grey Warden. He's a raw recruit, and he spent most of his life in the Chantry learning that mages are bad and blood magic is evil. He's not really a good person to base any of the Grey Warden ideals/behaviour on.

Wardens do whatever is necessary to stop the Darkspawn. Blood magic, murder, it doesn't matter. The ends justify the means for them.

Duncan was recruited after murdering a Grey Warden, and was a pickpocket before that. He led a hard life, and he is who he is. He's not infallible, but he is an effective leader and a hell of a Grey Warden. He did what he had to. I only wish there had been more Grey Warden interaction, but the books and codex entries are fantastic for backstory.

Naww, we all know that already. Robertthebard just loves any opportunity he can find to make more digs at Alistair and point out how delusional/whiny/cowardly/deceitful/clueless/incontinent he is as a character.