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[JWvonGoethe]

Pauravi wrote...

JWvonGoethe wrote...

Pauravi - Jzadek72 explicitly stated in their opening post that he/she liked Shepard's dialogue in Mass Effect. So having a voiced protagonist in DA2 was clearly not the issue here.

You're right, I did miss the mention of Shepard, although I was mostly responding to the comparison of DA2 to Origins, which really seem very similar in dialogue structure to me.
Having seen the subsequent comments on Shepard, though, I'll say that I do agree in principle.  It is very difficult -- impossible, really -- to provide a sense of true free agency in a game that is necessarily characterized by a limited number of choices.  However, it can be done better than it was in DA2, and in fact BioWare themselves have done it better.

Sorry, I hadn't understood your post correctly and I mistakenly thought you were talking about voiced protagonist issues - I'm really sleep deprived at the moment. Also, the tone I used seems a little bit hasty and ratty when I read back over my original post to you, so sorry if I came across as rude.

For what it's worth, having re-read your posts, I agree with you. The dialogue structure in DAO was identical to that of DA2. The only notable difference between the list version and the wheel, other than he aesthetic difference, was that the list options in Origins had a hard limit of 6 choices per node, whereas the wheel has a limit of 10 dialogue options per conversation node (though there were generally only ever a maximimum of 8 available options to choose from in DA2.) 

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:39 .

[Palipride47]

JWvonGoethe wrote...

Palipride, thanks for the thoughtful response.

Me? THOUGHTFUL?! well, must be sleep deprivation.....

And Thank You!

I guess, I just get why people like one or the other, and I see (or do) reactionary things because we all love Bioware as much as kittens and rainbows and a 5th of Glen Goolie Black in the morning....but we have to all get along, or something 

[Arppis]

As long as there is the snarky/humorious choices, I'm game...

[Adanu]

Oh look, another Silent protag versus voice Protag thread /yawn

They're going with voiced. Deal with it or get out.

Modifié par Adanu, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:23 .

[Palipride47]

Adanu wrote...

Oh look, another Silent protag versus voice Protag thread /yawn

They're going with voiced. Deal with it or get out.

Uh...this thread has actually been a pretty nice discussion on improvements, issues and other things, but good to note that we should never, never have suggestions for improvement or diagreement <_<

eh, not bothering

Modifié par Palipride47, 23 octobre 2012 - 07:42 .

[TomHark]

I'd quite like to see dominant tones (if they re-appear) be done by faction, so I can be nice to my friends, nasty to my enemies and snarky to everyone else without sounding like a head case. Bonus points if each companion counts as a seperate faction with such a system.

Modifié par TomHark, 23 octobre 2012 - 11:39 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Aggressive is more funny then dumb sarcastic Hawke....... just saying.

[esper]

Jzadek72 wrote...

People have a lot of grievances with Dragon Age 2, and here's my big one (other than the wave composition in combat) - profiling Hawke as either Jesus, Hannibal Lecter or Blackadder. It was a smart system, and there were some very nice touches in it, such as people suggesting that Funny!Hawke uses humour as a defence mechanism, but in the end, it leaves no room for complexity in the character - you're either nice, evil or snarky. That's it, that's who you are.

I tried to play an aggressive jerk with a heart of gold. It's not a particularly complex archetype, but the system couldn't handle it - that heart disappeared very quickly when my Hawke started to display serious symptoms of psychopathy. It certainly wouldn't handle the harsh, yet idealistic city elf who ultimately struggled to do what was needed to be done when push came to shove, or my quiet, kind and surprisingly ruthless mage with no time for anything spiritual or artistic. In the end, I couldn't bring myself to care about Hawke the way I cared about my Wardens, or Shepard, simply because she didn't feel at all like I had any agency over who she was.

Frankly, an RPG should allow you to roleplay a character far better than three simplistic types. I'm not asking for Origin's complexity, I know that the voiced protagonist has it's drawbacks and that one of them is going to be a cut down in quantity in exchange for a more cinematic game; but it still shouldn't prevent me from playing a character who is my character. Please, let us pick our dialogue and work out our personality ourselves rather than letting a pre-set system decide it. 

The system is handling my current jerk with a heart of gold perfectly. People react to the jerk part, which they should. Because if someone is a jerk with a heart of gold in real life, the jerk part is the one most will react to (No matter what other stories might tell you)  But there is no problem for my heroine to do all the stuff that shows that she really cares and she hasn't shown any sign of pshycopathachy.

The system also handled the much more complex characther of a polite, and soft spoken idealist who due to the world inability to accept that she knows best, end up being a polite, but completely ruthless person who will simply remove any person who dares to oppose her. 'I will make Kirkwall a better place for everyone' had a rather omnious and ironic ring to it in act three.

My broken, abusive **** of a characther was also well played in the game even if she did made me feel dirty to play. Likewise my nice, but deflective joker was also portrayed well in the game even if I disliked her, because she was so insincere.

The only place I think the personality system is really wrong is that joining Petrice is a persude choice, which it shouldn't be. I would like to see it more complex though. Like the game noticing that I am forexample was mostly agressive towards chantry people, friendly towards mages and so forth. But I loved the system because it allowed me to create a personality that was actually regonized in game. I want it expanded on and more complex. A neutral personality is a personality too after all.

    

[esper]

Jzadek72 wrote...

Tokion wrote...

I loved the DA2 personality system on how some options are only available to certain personalities, and sometimes you got to bite the bullet knowing your Hawke cannot talk it's way out of a situation because he is not aggressive enough highlights the consequences of how you build your Hawke's personality.

There shouldn't be consequences. Hawke should be allowed to be a person, not shoehorned in to those three options. Why shouldn't a nice Hawke sometimes lose it? I'd like to think I'm not an angry person, but if I was confronted with some of the things Hawke is, I'd go ballistic. Hawke should be able to too. Aggressiveness is not a meter you build up, it's a character trait. 

For instance, in ME1, my Shepard told the council they could kiss her ass. She did this because I'd constructed her to be quite anti-authoritarian, not because she was racist. This choice was reflected in the way I'd built her personality - I'd act similarly toward Alliance people, but was courteous to aliens and in the end, I saved the Council. If that was DA2, I'd have been forced to be a horrendous racist and instituted a human-centric council without any will of my own.

This is factual wrong. I had a mage Hawke that was friendly/diplomatic to the templars (not because she agreed with them, but because she was terrified of them and being nice seemed like a good way to not draw attention to herself). In the end she wasn't forced to side with the templars at all.

In fact the only time your personality can force a side is the Petrice thing, which is properly an oversight from bioware's side in that they thought not many would ever be interested in supporting Petrice. And even if you are agressive you are not forced to side with her. You just fail to convince her if you are unagressive. You can still express, quite sincere, that you wish to join her side.

[esper]

Nizaris1 wrote...

I don't know why "Thank you" is so hard to say in DA2

flemeth burn down darkspawn and saved veryone, Hawke say

- I don't know what we will become if you don't help us :innocent:
- Impressive! Where you learn to become a dragon?
- I don't know you and i will not let you endanger my family!

Why can't say a simple word "Thank you"?

Your :innocent:, is pretty much thank you. But what have that to do with personality? The warden rarely said thankyou either.

[vortex216]

Origins wasn't complex at all.  In fact it had basically the same 3 types of responses.
You almost always had the 1. "Nice guy" response, 2. "Neutral / funny" response, and 3. "Mean / callous" response, plus sometimes anywhere from 1-3 question responses.


wrong. i just finished my 15th playthrough. he was direct, blunt and a little insensitive, but in the end he did what he thought was best. he was extremely biased to his own people (dalish) and took a long time to get used to human society. if you broke past his "wall", you could see his softer side...breifley. He was stubborn and a bit snarky at times, but all in all he was a good person. Try making that in dragon age 2!

[Fallstar]

Good luck with that OP.

Between the PC saying things without any player input at all, the PC being voiced so forcing each dialogue line into one tone, and the player only having a vague idea what each dialogue choice actually means, you've got a rather tall order in creating a character.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 23 octobre 2012 - 01:34 .

[esper]

vortex216 wrote...



Origins wasn't complex at all.  In fact it had basically the same 3 types of responses.
You almost always had the 1. "Nice guy" response, 2. "Neutral / funny" response, and 3. "Mean / callous" response, plus sometimes anywhere from 1-3 question responses.


wrong. i just finished my 15th playthrough. he was direct, blunt and a little insensitive, but in the end he did what he thought was best. he was extremely biased to his own people (dalish) and took a long time to get used to human society. if you broke past his "wall", you could see his softer side...breifley. He was stubborn and a bit snarky at times, but all in all he was a good person. Try making that in dragon age 2!

Already did. She is blunt and sometimes a bit rude and have no sense of humor what so ever so, but always do the best she can to help and protect as many people as possible (even if she is a bit biased to mages). Is is simply really, I am in the middle of Mark and currently debating with myself wherever Tallis have made a good enough cause for her case for this characther to believe that innocent lives are really on the line.

[DreamwareStudio]

I got absolutely no sense at any time that I defined Hawk's personality or that he was "my" character. I've struggled in comparing that experience with the Witcher games, because Geralt always seemed mine and they're both predefined PCs. I'm not sure if the discrepancy is because the Witcher games offer more roleplaying or that I found Hawk entirely uninteresting or because of the dialogue wheel. Maybe it was because DA 2 was at best an average game and at worst one of the more miserable I have ever played. The fact so little decisions in DA 2 mattered may have a lot to do with it as well. Probably all of those reasons.

That said, I really liked how you were able to more fully define the Warden's personality. DA:O was pretty good in that regard.

Modifié par google_calasade, 23 octobre 2012 - 03:51 .

[Rune-Chan]

Signed and wholeheartedly agree with. This is my number one desire for DA3, as well as my largest issue with DA2 and ME3 (not including either games endings anyway).

[garrusfan1]

Actually I liked the way DA2 did it. Yes there were some parts that we're overdone like you said but i liked the way it was done.

[JWvonGoethe]

Palipride47 wrote...

JWvonGoethe wrote...

Palipride, thanks for the thoughtful response.

Me? THOUGHTFUL?! well, must be sleep deprivation....

And Thank You!

I guess, I just get why people like one or the other, and I see (or do) reactionary things because we all love Bioware as much as kittens and rainbows and a 5th of Glen Goolie Black in the morning....but we have to all get along, or something.

Well I was posting a lot of veerrrryyy strange posts last night... no, seriously it's good to see someone else who liked where the devs where going with all the clever, genre-subverting ideas in DA2. Even if they then threw in two giant, heroic boss fights at the end to mess the whole concept up... oh well, nothing's perfect.

[Palipride47]

JWvonGoethe wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

JWvonGoethe wrote...

Palipride, thanks for the thoughtful response.

Me? THOUGHTFUL?! well, must be sleep deprivation....

And Thank You!

I guess, I just get why people like one or the other, and I see (or do) reactionary things because we all love Bioware as much as kittens and rainbows and a 5th of Glen Goolie Black in the morning....but we have to all get along, or something.

Well I was posting a lot of veerrrryyy strange posts last night... no, seriously it's good to see someone else who liked where the devs where going with all the clever, genre-subverting ideas in DA2. Even if they then threw in two giant, heroic boss fights at the end to mess the whole concept up... oh well, nothing's perfect.

Haha, good ideas and a decent storyline with enough annoyances piling up to overshadow and ruin the entire game.....what does that remind me of? 

[Atakuma]

It is up to the player.

[mitthrawuodo]

Why don't they give us more options, i mean the wheel's got six sides; why don't they use more? It won't be a massive difference but it'll be an improvement.

[Iosev]

What I would love to see is the dominant tone vary between whom you are speaking to. For example, let's say that your character enjoys Isabela's company, but has a more antagonistic relationship with Aveline. Thus, while you respond charmingly with Isabela, in contrast, you respond more aggressively with Aveline. This in turn would alter how they thought about you, such as Isabela telling Aveline how funny your character is, with Aveline being puzzled and commenting, "He's always an ass to me."

Obviously, I do not know how difficult this would be to implement in the game, so I wouldn't really expect this amount of complexity in the dialogue, but it would certainly be nice. 

Modifié par arcelonious, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:26 .

[LadyVaJedi]

I would love to see the various npcs also comment on what class you are and if you are a mage what type of caster you are example if you are a healer, pure damage dealer, or blood mage. And if you are a rouge are you duel wielder, a sneak thief, or a ranger type.