53 réponses à ce sujet

[Josielyn]

Why can't or why don't Grey Wardens recruit from among the Tranquil especially since they have the Right of Conscription? What if surviving the Joining were to somehow "reverse" the Rite of Tranquility?  I am hoping the Tranquil issue will be addressed in DA3, and curious to know peoples' thoughts about this.

[Rawgrim]

Good question. I`d say they wouldn`t be suited as wardens. They have no passion and such. The question you ask about reversing tranquility is explored quite abit in the Asunder book. I highly reccomend it.

[Eveangaline]

How would the joining re-connect them to the fade?

[Kileyan]

I can't think about the tranquil option without thinking about the horrific way the Templar scum were abusing them. I'd prefer it be abolished and the templars sent to the bottom of a lake with their fancy shiny armor welded shut around them.

.........hey you asked.

[BlueMagitek]

From my understanding, there is a way to undo the Rite of Tranquility at this point. I'm not sure how darkspawn blood would help with that, though. =D

[ImperatorMortis]

Why would you wanna recruit a Tranquil for anything other than mowing your lawn? They're unmotivated, have no sense for self preservation(Remember that Tranquil in DA:O who wouldn't leave his post despite the Demon incident?).

Also they were originally mages. Most of their combat experience came from using their AWESOME POWER, but now that their POWER was taken away from them, and how old they are can they really be trained to fight adequately enough for the Grey Wardens? 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 23 octobre 2012 - 02:22 .

[Josielyn]

Kileyan wrote...

I can't think about the tranquil option without thinking about the horrific way the Templar scum were abusing them. I'd prefer it be abolished and the templars sent to the bottom of a lake with their fancy shiny armor welded shut around them.

.........hey you asked.

Actually, I love your post if you read it again out loud in the voice of King Julian from Madagascar 3. 
But aside from this, I am going to have to re-read Asunder more slowly this time, and with a full night's sleep: like eating a piece of cake slowly, one bite at a time, and then licking the frosting off the plate, rather than cramming the whole piece in my mouth and chewing twice before swallowing.  I blame hunger that time!  So, just what kind of magical things can darkspawn blood do, and would the Tranquil hear "the song" or would they be immune to the calling?

[Josielyn]

Also, is passion really necessary to be proficient in tracking and fighting darkspawn?

[berelinde]

The Tranquil tend to be very purpose oriented and a lot of warrior disciplines consider passion a detriment rather than a boon, so I could see how Tranquil Wardens might work out, provided they received adequate martial training. That said, reversing Tranquility and allowing them to fight darkspawn with their regular mage abilities makes much more sense.

[Vandicus]

berelinde wrote...

The Tranquil tend to be very purpose oriented and a lot of warrior disciplines consider passion a detriment rather than a boon, so I could see how Tranquil Wardens might work out, provided they received adequate martial training. That said, reversing Tranquility and allowing them to fight darkspawn with their regular mage abilities makes much more sense.

The trouble is Tranquil seem borderline indifferent. Remember the one in the Circle when it was taken over by abominations? He's all, eh whatever, they haven't started bothering me yet and I like it here so I won't try to escape my possible doom yet.

It does bring into serious question whether it would be possible to convince a Tranquil to take the offensive or fight in any circumstances where he's not literally in direct danger.

[berelinde]

Owain's instructions were to keep the store room tidy and to fill orders with the appropriate documentation, which is why he continued to clean the place with complete disregard for personal safety. If he had been tasked with defending it against demons instead, his actions might have been very different.

In that light, Tranquil warriors might be a very scary thing indeed.

[Kileyan]

Josielyn wrote...

Also, is passion really necessary to be proficient in tracking and fighting darkspawn?

Hard question to answer:) You could say that having no emotions and not really caring about yourself would make  you not care all that much about combat or your fellow man next to you, a very apathetic warrior, someone who doesn't even care if he lives or dies, or even cares about what he is fighting for.

Then again, someone geeky like me could talk Equilibrium where the machine like clerics did amazing combat feats with a singular purpose, something the Tranquils might understand, a single job that they must do well.

I suppose it boils down to how you feel about the cheesy movies where the hero is beaten and pulls some strength from emotions, his love of his wife or his bitter want for revenge to turn the tables. If you call bull****, the emotionless combat machine is the winner, if you cheer for that beaten hero, then you want someone with emotions next to you.

On topic, I don't see how the blood would cure them, or even if it did, how it would give them their magic back. I'm still for saving them, they don't even regret that state they are in, but it is hard to look at and witness and a fate worse than death to me.

Yeh a little drunk rambling, and boo you and your King Julian jab:)

[Josielyn]

Would they fight if they were obeying orders? Does their disconnection to magic make the taint easier to master? I wonder.

[ImperatorMortis]

Josielyn wrote...

Would they fight if they were obeying orders? Does their disconnection to magic make the taint easier to master? I wonder.

Yes they would. But they would probably fight just enough, not harder or faster(unless they were explicitly ordered to I suppose). They also have no sense of self preservation which means if the going gets tough they won't fight harder, or retreat(unless ordered to), and would just die quickly.

Also they're world view is too 2dimensional they have no depth to them, no unique ideas, no cunning, they can't naturally adapt to situations. The only way such a thing could work is if every unit of Tranquil had a "herder" of some sort to tell them all explicitly what to do. 

But if that herder is gone.. They're screwed.

Tranquils in war are a liability.  

berelinde wrote...

Owain's instructions were to keep the store room tidy and to fill orders with the appropriate documentation, which is why he continued to clean the place with complete disregard for personal safety. If he had been tasked with defending it against demons instead, his actions might have been very different.

In that light, Tranquil warriors might be a very scary thing indeed.

What? How? Owain would have died instantly. He has no magic, and he's a frail old man. What could he do? Tranquil Warriors would be a pushover. 

Unless you tranquiled them as children, and forced them to train/hone their skills at a young age. Then maybe they might be a force to be reckoned with.

But I don't need to explain how disgusting, and vile that idea is. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 23 octobre 2012 - 03:43 .

[Vandicus]

berelinde wrote...

Owain's instructions were to keep the store room tidy and to fill orders with the appropriate documentation, which is why he continued to clean the place with complete disregard for personal safety. If he had been tasked with defending it against demons instead, his actions might have been very different.

In that light, Tranquil warriors might be a very scary thing indeed.

Yeah not saying its impossible, just from what we've been shown so far they don't really necessarily have the proper sense of self-preservation and individual initiative that are typically desireable(Western[I say Western because Western cultures originated these practices, though they have been since adopted in other nations such as Iran] military doctrine tends to emphasize training soldiers to be more than just obedient killing machines, and this is typically regarded as the best way to train people). Moreover, Tranquil aren't magically bound to obey people. They would have to be persuaded to go kill people, which I question their willingness to do. How do you convince a Tranquil to kill someone? 

[Vandicus]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Josielyn wrote...

Would they fight if they were obeying orders? Does their disconnection to magic make the taint easier to master? I wonder.

Yes they would. But they would probably fight just enough, not harder or faster(unless they were explicitly ordered to I suppose). They also have no sense of self preservation which means if the going gets tough they won't fight harder, or retreat(unless ordered to), and would just die quickly.

Also they're world view is too 2dimensional they have no depth to them, no unique ideas, no cunning, they can't naturally adapt to situations. The only way such a thing could work is if every unit of Tranquil had a "herder" of some sort to tell them all explicitly what to do. 

But if that herder is gone.. They're screwed.

Tranquils in war are a liability.  

berelinde wrote...

Owain's instructions were to keep the store room tidy and to fill orders with the appropriate documentation, which is why he continued to clean the place with complete disregard for personal safety. If he had been tasked with defending it against demons instead, his actions might have been very different.

In that light, Tranquil warriors might be a very scary thing indeed.

What? How? Owain would have died instantly. He has no magic, and he's a frail old man. What could he do? Tranquil Warriors would be a pushover. 

Unless you tranquiled them as children, and forced them to train/hone their skills at a young age. Then maybe they might be a force to be reckoned with.

But I don't need to explain how disgusting, and vile that idea is. 

Several misconcpetions there. You are correct in that Tranquil are unlikely to take the individual initiative necessary to present a formidable fighting force, but they're not machines. They do have a sense of self preservation(though to all apearances its both weak and short-sighted), and they have free will. It appears that their work is a result of rational persuasion rather than their inability to disobey. On that note, it is questionable whether they would risk their lives unless provided a lengthy explanation as to why risking their life now will increase their odds of survival in the future.

Modifié par Vandicus, 23 octobre 2012 - 03:46 .

[berelinde]

Josielyn wrote...

Would they fight if they were obeying orders? Does their disconnection to magic make the taint easier to master? I wonder.

Their disconnection from magic is more of an emotional thing rather than a purely physical thing, since they retain the ability to work lyrium, but based on the examples we have seen, their severance from the Fade might make them more susceptible to the taint rather than less. Or at least more inclined to heed their Calling sooner. David Gaider has stated that Justice may  have made Anders immune to his Calling (but he never said anything about the taint itself, so he may retain his faculties but become a less-addled version of Larius). Since the Fade spirit in Anders is what prevents him from succumbing to the song of the Archdemons (and Corypheus, apparently), a lack of emotion might turn Tranquil Wardens into puppets of the darkspawn. Or not. It's certainly something interesting to think about.

But yeah, I don't see any reason why individual Tranquil couldn't be soldiers. Maybe not Wardens, though.

[ImperatorMortis]

Vandicus wrote...
hey do have a sense of self preservation(though to all apearances its both weak and short-sighted)

Insisting on cleaning an area while there's a real threat of being killed by a demon is not a sense of self preservation at all, in any form. 

Vandicus wrote...
and they have free will. 

In DA2 this has been debunked multiple times. 

Anders ex boyfriend initially saying that it was OK to be tranquil, and stuff. But after being momentarily cured he's totally against it, and says he'd rather die than stay that way. 

Also during the Tranquil solution part when the Mage girl was begging to the Templars that she'd do anything if they didn't hurt her, the leader responds with something along the lines of "Thats right, after you're tranquil you'll do anything I say.". 

Yeah.. They don't have freewill. 

Vandicus wrote...
On that note, it is questionable whether they would risk their lives unless provided a lengthy explanation as to why risking their life now will increase their odds of survival in the future.

They would strap a bomb to their chest, and try to "hug" enemy units if their masters told them to. 

[Vandicus]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
hey do have a sense of self preservation(though to all apearances its both weak and short-sighted)

Insisting on cleaning an area while there's a real threat of being killed by a demon is not a sense of self preservation at all, in any form. 

Vandicus wrote...
and they have free will. 

In DA2 this has been debunked multiple times. 

Anders ex boyfriend initially saying that it was OK to be tranquil, and stuff. But after being momentarily cured he's totally against it, and says he'd rather die than stay that way. 

Also during the Tranquil solution part when the Mage girl was begging to the Templars that she'd do anything if they didn't hurt her, the leader responds with something along the lines of "Thats right, after you're tranquil you'll do anything I say.". 

Yeah.. They don't have freewill. 

Vandicus wrote...
On that note, it is questionable whether they would risk their lives unless provided a lengthy explanation as to why risking their life now will increase their odds of survival in the future.

They would strap a bomb to their chest, and try to "hug" enemy units if their masters told them to. 

You don't seem to understand that the Tranquil function primarily as pragmatic super-rational beings. It has been established in the lore and by Gaider.


http://social.biowar...ex/7058889&lf=8

This should dispel any doubts you have. 

[ImperatorMortis]

Vandicus wrote...

You don't seem to understand that the Tranquil function primarily as pragmatic super-rational beings. It has been established in the lore and by Gaider.


http://social.biowar...ex/7058889&lf=8

This should dispel any doubts you have. 

I don't want to repeat myself, but I will.. How the hell is cleaning an area while there is a demonic incursion going on pragmatic or rational in anyway? 

[berelinde]

Vandicus wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Owain's instructions were to keep the store room tidy and to fill orders with the appropriate documentation, which is why he continued to clean the place with complete disregard for personal safety. If he had been tasked with defending it against demons instead, his actions might have been very different.

In that light, Tranquil warriors might be a very scary thing indeed.

Yeah not saying its impossible, just from what we've been shown so far they don't really necessarily have the proper sense of self-preservation and individual initiative that are typically desireable(Western[I say Western because Western cultures originated these practices, though they have been since adopted in other nations such as Iran] military doctrine tends to emphasize training soldiers to be more than just obedient killing machines, and this is typically regarded as the best way to train people). Moreover, Tranquil aren't magically bound to obey people. They would have to be persuaded to go kill people, which I question their willingness to do. How do you convince a Tranquil to kill someone? 

You'd convince them the same way you'd convince anyone else, and you might have better luck with it than you would if you tried to persuade someone with a more active sense of self-preservation. The Tranquil do possess free will. If they understood that their actions would save the lives of others and benefit the group as a whole, they'd probably go along with the idea quite willingly. From what we've seen of Pharamond, some Tranquil *do* actually show individual initiative. He conducted the research on his own without anyone else he could consult for information, so we aren't talking about an autonamoton here. I'm not saying that he came up with the idea himself or that he would have done it at all unless somebody asked him to, but research of any kind involves a lot of decisions about which leads to pursue and which to abandon.

I wouldn't want a Tranquil leading an army, but they might be integrated into larger units. I'm also not saying that this would be the bestest fighting force in Thedas. I am saying that if you were a leader with half a dozen fit and able-bodied Tranquil and if you were in a situation where you needed warriors more than you needed inventory clerks, they might not work out too badly.

A lot of people throw around the assertion that it takes decades to learn to wield a sword. Yes, to become a master swordsman, it does indeed take years of dedicated training. Tranquil are capable of great focus and a lot more discipline than their non-Tranquil counterparts. They might prove to be quicker studies than a lot of people think. Not instantaneous, but not a quarter of a century, either.

[brushyourteeth]

The Tranquil may not seem motivated to us, and they're certainly not ambitious or creative, but "Asunder" proved that they can think for themselves, living and working on tasks of their own without any instruction from others, and even defying orders from the Chantry if they have good reason to.

Against the Rite as I am, I think it's kinda obvious that a Tranquil on your side will always be a good thing. They're very, very good at what they do.

[JimTasty]

This may be a dumb question to ask but how was the Rite of Tranquility discovered and who invented it?

[berelinde]

brushyourteeth wrote...

The Tranquil may not seem motivated to us, and they're certainly not ambitious or creative, but "Asunder" proved that they can think for themselves, living and working on tasks of their own without any instruction from others, and even defying orders from the Chantry if they have good reason to.

Against the Rite as I am, I think it's kinda obvious that a Tranquil on your side will always be a good thing. They're very, very good at what they do.

That's the point I was trying to make. Ideally, you'd want to reverse the process if you could (and if the subject wanted it - Owain didn't!), but the Tranquil have more to contribute than secretarial skills.

[Vandicus]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

You don't seem to understand that the Tranquil function primarily as pragmatic super-rational beings. It has been established in the lore and by Gaider.


http://social.biowar...ex/7058889&lf=8

This should dispel any doubts you have. 

I don't want to repeat myself, but I will.. How the hell is cleaning an area while there is a demonic incursion going on pragmatic or rational in anyway? 

*Shrugs

Ask the Gaider. However, your understanding of what it is to be rational and pragmatic is incorrect. Self-sacrifice or abandoning a sense of self preservation can be entirely logical courses of action to achieve a goal. Self-preservation is not an inherently rational concept, it is an instinctive/emotional one. Goals are by and large a result of emotion driven desires. Rationality is the way by which we determine how best to achieve those goals. If Tranquil have very weak senses of self-preservation, they may simply view avoiding the possible onset of their death as causing unnecessary discomfort, with the cost(leaving his comfortable study), outweighing the benefit(avoiding the threat death).

Modifié par Vandicus, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:27 .