53 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

You don't seem to understand that the Tranquil function primarily as pragmatic super-rational beings. It has been established in the lore and by Gaider.


http://social.biowar...ex/7058889&lf=8

This should dispel any doubts you have. 

I don't want to repeat myself, but I will.. How the hell is cleaning an area while there is a demonic incursion going on pragmatic or rational in anyway? 

Well, Owain was one of the mages that  chose Tranquility, right? That says something about his personality before he became one. Different people respond to stress different ways. Some fight. Some hide. Some clean. 

In "Asunder", one of the Tranquil says "Once I knew only fear, but now I know only service." The guy probably wasn't even concerned about self-preservation -- but the demon goop crowding his storeroom was driving him to distraction. 

[Kileyan]

I kinda picture them as savants with a lot of OCD mixed in. They are comfortable within a very small area of parameters, like the guy whose entire life as he knew it being that area of the chantry.

The thought of leaving it was scarier to him than the not immediate thought of possible harm coming 10 minutes later, 30 minutes later, or never coming. Comprehending what MIGHT happen was less scary to him than the immediate fear of certainly leaving everything he knew.

Again, these things bother me, people that would turn a person into these beings are horrible. It creeps me out and makes me angry everytime I meet one of the tranquil in the game.

[arcaneidolriots]

JimTasty wrote...

This may be a dumb question to ask but how was the Rite of Tranquility discovered and who invented it?

Actually that isn't a dumb question.  Unfortunately though we don't know who or even how the Rite of Tranquility was discovered.  All we know is that a brand of lyrium is required; anything else about how the Rite is performed or what goes into it is secret.  In Asunder, the Divine herself admits that the Chantry has little understanding about the Rite, so it's probably a safe assumption that the templars and most mages also don't truly understand how the Rite works or why it does.  The templars probably don't even care, really; they just know that it works.

Personally I like to believe that the Rite of Tranquility might have it's origins in Tevinter or that it might even go all the way back to ancient Arlathan.

The one person who might know quite a bit about the Rite is Rhys.  Asunder conspicuously glosses over any specific details regarding Pharamond's research and what he learned over the years, just as it glosses over what he taught Rhys about reversing the Rite.  Which could mean that we might hear more details about it in the future, as the writers feel fit to reveal.

[Josielyn]

I hope that reversing the Rite of Tranquility is a secret that we get to discover during gameplay in DA3! And I would love to see at least 1 Tranquil Grey Warden. I remember that in Asunder even Tranquils did have free will to act against authority if blind obedience was illogical or impractical, so faced with the choice, would it be more practical to remain tranquil, or to be reversed ? Would there be a tribunal where a "misdiagnosis" of the former mage's Abomination potential would have to be proven in order to allow the procedure to be reversed? Does the Tevinter Imperium already know how to reverse it and they are waiting for the right time to spring it on the other nations as part of a takeover?

[Terrorize69]

Traq's have no fear and follow any order without question and until the end. If you told one to fight darkspawn and defeat the blight, it would do so without rest, sleep or fear. Until the blight was defeated or they died.

Modifié par Terrorize69, 24 octobre 2012 - 01:09 .

[ledod]

OrientalisDraco wrote...

JimTasty wrote...

This may be a dumb question to ask but how was the Rite of Tranquility discovered and who invented it?

Actually that isn't a dumb question.  Unfortunately though we don't know who or even how the Rite of Tranquility was discovered.  All we know is that a brand of lyrium is required; anything else about how the Rite is performed or what goes into it is secret.  In Asunder, the Divine herself admits that the Chantry has little understanding about the Rite, so it's probably a safe assumption that the templars and most mages also don't truly understand how the Rite works or why it does.  The templars probably don't even care, really; they just know that it works.

Personally I like to believe that the Rite of Tranquility might have it's origins in Tevinter or that it might even go all the way back to ancient Arlathan.

The one person who might know quite a bit about the Rite is Rhys.  Asunder conspicuously glosses over any specific details regarding Pharamond's research and what he learned over the years, just as it glosses over what he taught Rhys about reversing the Rite.  Which could mean that we might hear more details about it in the future, as the writers feel fit to reveal.

Perhaps the answer lies with the Dwarves: Why are they unable to use magic, yet retain their humanity? Dwarves, by virtue of being subterranean beings, are assumedly exposed to lyrium more often than top-dwellers.

Out of curiosity, is the Lyrium found in the fade the same lyrium as found on Thedas, or is it some spirit-concieved 'idea' of lyrium?

[Raikas]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

.What? How? Owain would have died instantly. He has no magic, and he's a frail old man. What could he do? Tranquil Warriors would be a pushover. 

Unless you tranquiled them as children, and forced them to train/hone their skills at a young age. Then maybe they might be a force to be reckoned with.

But I don't need to explain how disgusting, and vile that idea is. 

Sure, Owain was an old man when we see him, but the rite of tranquility seems to potentially be performed at the same age that a mage would go through the Harrowing – and from what we see in the mage origin they’re what? Late teens to early twenties at that point? Certainly young enough to be trained to do something else.

[Medhia Nox]

If the Tranquil really are as Owain describes them - they would be terrifying warriors.

Complete focus - no fear - and no passions.

I think a Tranquil warrior would be absolutely fascinating.

In fact - the amount of professions they would dominate would be phenomenal.

Kinda like involuntary not always - Owain choses it of course) Zen.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:02 .

[Josielyn]

I can't help but think of the Unsullied in GOT when I think of the Tranquil. I'll bet they would be awesome warriors to a worthy cause. And less subject to moral corruption. So if the "cure" to reverse the branding of lyrium were not able to be reproduced successfully, could the Grey Wardens argue that the right of Conscription should extend to Tranquil as well?

[ImperatorMortis]

Hervoyl wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

.What? How? Owain would have died instantly. He has no magic, and he's a frail old man. What could he do? Tranquil Warriors would be a pushover. 

Unless you tranquiled them as children, and forced them to train/hone their skills at a young age. Then maybe they might be a force to be reckoned with.

But I don't need to explain how disgusting, and vile that idea is. 

Sure, Owain was an old man when we see him, but the rite of tranquility seems to potentially be performed at the same age that a mage would go through the Harrowing – and from what we see in the mage origin they’re what? Late teens to early twenties at that point? Certainly young enough to be trained to do something else.

Why would anyone do that just make soldiers though?

One. Its disgustingly immoral. 

Two. Mages who can actually cast spells are infinitely more powerful than even the most skilled or diciplined normal human. 

[Wulfram]

Since part of the joining is basically tapping into the Darkspawns hivemind through your dream s - which Tranquil lack, would the Joining would work on them?

[Raikas]

[quote]ImperatorMortis wrote...

[quote]Hervoyl wrote...

[/quote]


Sure, Owain was an old man when we see him, but the rite of tranquility seems to potentially be performed at the same age that a mage would go through the Harrowing – and from what we see in the mage origin they’re what? Late teens to early twenties at that point? Certainly young enough to be trained to do something else.[/quote]

Why would anyone do that just make soldiers though?

One. Its disgustingly immoral. 

Two. Mages who can actually cast spells are infinitely more powerful than even the most skilled or diciplined normal human. 

[/quote]

They're already being made tranquil, the point is why waste that single-minded potential and train them going foward from there.

[arcaneidolriots]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Hervoyl wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

.What? How? Owain would have died instantly. He has no magic, and he's a frail old man. What could he do? Tranquil Warriors would be a pushover. 

Unless you tranquiled them as children, and forced them to train/hone their skills at a young age. Then maybe they might be a force to be reckoned with.

But I don't need to explain how disgusting, and vile that idea is. 

Sure, Owain was an old man when we see him, but the rite of tranquility seems to potentially be performed at the same age that a mage would go through the Harrowing – and from what we see in the mage origin they’re what? Late teens to early twenties at that point? Certainly young enough to be trained to do something else.

Why would anyone do that just make soldiers though?

One. Its disgustingly immoral. 

Two. Mages who can actually cast spells are infinitely more powerful than even the most skilled or diciplined normal human. 

I thought that original question of this thread was regarding mages that have already been made Tranquil, not that we are turning people into Tranquil for x reason.

ImperatorMortis, I don't understand why you think that the Tranquil can't learn new skills.  Or that you need to be young in order to adequately learn new skills or hone them.  People learn new skills all the time, it's practice and dedication to a craft that will determine how well you do it.  The Tranquil don't learn the art of enchantment until after they are made Tranquil afterall.  Also, a Tranquil doesn't forget previously learned knowledge or skills when the Rite is performed on them.  If a mage happens to know how to wield a dagger prior to being made Tranquil, they still will know how to use a dagger.

Training mages in martial combat is not a new idea.  In fact there is [a codex entry] where one enchanter wanted to have a weapons training elective class.  You may argue that a mage would rely on their magic more than a sword or dagger.  While that is true, you also should consider that with a mage there's always the possibility of them running out of mana and not being able to cast spells.  Being able to fall back on a sword could give a mage a chance at surviving an encounter where they can't use magic.  It's how Malcolm Hawke was able to work in the Free Marches as a mercenary; he relied on his martial skills more than his magic in order to hide the fact that he was an apostate.

Would a Tranquil make a good warrior?  If you could teach a Tranquil to 'think on their feet' then maybe.

Would they make good Grey Wardens?  If the Joining reverses their Tranquility, I would say no because reversing the Rite results in emotional instability in the no-longer-Tranquil mage, which would be a huge detriment.  It would be too much of an investment to pick a Tranquil, reverse their Tranquility (should they, y'know, not die during the Joining), and then spend even more time helping them to control themselves emotionally, reteaching them magic, and adjusting to the life of a Grey Warden (which to be fair, just kind of plain sucks).

I'm sure the Grey Wardens would welcome Tranquil for enchanting weapons and armour, but that's about it.

[arcaneidolriots]

Josielyn wrote...

I can't help but think of the Unsullied in GOT when I think of the Tranquil. I'll bet they would be awesome warriors to a worthy cause. And less subject to moral corruption. So if the "cure" to reverse the branding of lyrium were not able to be reproduced successfully, could the Grey Wardens argue that the right of Conscription should extend to Tranquil as well?

The Grey Wardens don't technically need to use the Right; they can simply just ask the Tranquil themselves if they would like to serve the Wardens.

Once a mage has been made Tranquil, they are free to leave the Circle.  (Although given the information revealed in Asunder, this might not be the case anymore.)  Most Tranquil simply choose not to leave because they know they would be unwelcomed outside the Circle, not to mention they can be productive and help the Circle by staying.  Those who do live outside the Circle of Magi usually work at trading posts or shops to carry out Circle business, like the proprietor of the Wonders of Thedas in Denerim.

[Josielyn]

Thank you so much for all of the replies, insight, and bits of lore everyone! Your participation in this discussion is truly appreciated. To keep a narrow focus, I would like this topic to address mainly existing Tranquils, whether they could survive the Joining to become Grey Wardens, what kind of affect the Joining would have on their "Tranquility", and what kind of Grey Warden they would make. How do you think this issue could be covered through gameplay, DLC, or books? Or is there another tidbit out there on this specific topic that I just haven't found yet? Anyone up for writing a fanmade Machinima about it "Once upon a Tranquil" or "The Tranquil Warden" or maybe "The Darkspawn Whisperer?" I am sure someone would be able to come up with a better title than I could!

[Dr Mew]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Why would you wanna recruit a Tranquil for anything other than mowing your lawn? They're unmotivated, have no sense for self preservation(Remember that Tranquil in DA:O who wouldn't leave his post despite the Demon incident?).

Also they were originally mages. Most of their combat experience came from using their AWESOME POWER, but now that their POWER was taken away from them, and how old they are can they really be trained to fight adequately enough for the Grey Wardens? 

Actually, they lack emotion, not self preservation. As Owain clearly states during the mage tower quest, He tries to escape but Wynn's barrier stops him from getting out so he returned to a safe, familiar place. I'd take that as a pretty good self preservance move.

I'd imagine the Tranquil would take to martial combat rather easily, they focus whole heartedly on a task without distraction. So I think they would make incredible Grey Wardens, not fearing the darkspawn nightmares, not allowing emotion to get in the way of their tasks.

[Gorskijesih]

I'm more interested in Grey Warden Golems. Is that doable? Are they different than normal golems?

[nightscrawl]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Well, Owain was one of the mages that  chose Tranquility, right? That says something about his personality before he became one. Different people respond to stress different ways. Some fight. Some hide. Some clean. 

In "Asunder", one of the Tranquil says "Once I knew only fear, but now I know only service." The guy probably wasn't even concerned about self-preservation -- but the demon goop crowding his storeroom was driving him to distraction. 

He also does say that he would "prefer not to die," which certainly does indicate some will to survive. If a demon were approaching Owain's stockroom, I think he would probably hide, which would be the rational response for a being that doesn't want to die. What he would not do however, is make stupid mistakes based on fear, which can only be an asset.

At any rate, I don't know why people are so focused on Owain. He certainly isn't the only tranquil, nor is he the only one we've met in Dragon Age. Sure, he may be older and unsuited to a new life as a Grey Warden, but that doesn't mean a younger tranquil mage would be similarly unsuited. Jowan for example, had he been made tranquil according to original plan, would certainly have been young and fit enough to start some sort of training.

That's not to say that all Wardens have to fight though. They have use for all sorts. A tranquil mage plying his trade for the Wardens would still be useful, even if he doesn't kill any darkspawn with his own hands. The blacksmith who makes weapons and armor is just as valuable as the soldier who uses them. The same can be said for tranquil and their runes.

Gorskijesih wrote...

I'm more interested in Grey Warden Golems. Is that doable? Are they different than normal golems?

Shale aside, a golem is a tool and a weapon of war, the same as any other. A Grey Warden catapult is not different from a normal catapult. I see no reason why a Warden golem would be different either.

If you're referring to the method of creating a golem with the Anvil of the Void and using a person who already is a Warden, I don't think that would make a difference. It is the person's body that becomes tainted from the blood, not their soul, and their soul is what is transferred into the golem.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 26 octobre 2012 - 03:38 .

[planeswalker85]

Well, i've only played the DA games and not read the books but this thread raises a point i read in another forum thread namely about Ser Alrik. Its heavily alluded via ingame conversation in DA2 that he will happily abuse tranquil mages and get away with it as they don't fight back.

This ties in with others posters questions about their actual self-preservation and whether they are able to fight back properly. Now i see alot of posters have read the book Asunder that i haven't and quote alot from it but do tranquil really have 'free will' and are able to say 'No' to any commands? Thing is from past experience, Game lore and Novel Lore tend to be different and may even contradict each other at times.

[QueenPurpleScrap]

A couple of thoughts from reading this thread:

1 - I think too much emphasis is being placed on what happened in Asunder. I enjoyed the book and it raises some interesting questions but we should not take everything in it as canon. (Even though I suspect much of it will make its way into future games).

2 - I think it could be possible for the Joining to circumvent the Rite of Tranquility. Elven and human mages have a certain, body chemistry for want of a better description. The Rite destroys the bridge between their conscious and unconscious minds and thus the link to the Fade. However, the Joining changes their body chemistry to the point that, if they survive, they will be able to sense the darkspawn - and this is not through dreams. I think it possible that this change in their basic chemistry could open up a new path or build a new bridge to their subconscious. I don't know if this would automatically re-enable their ability to do magic. That could be a hit and miss kind of thing.

• Another question to consider, if the Joining can circumvent the Rite, does this mean the mage will once again be vulnerable? Remember, in some cases the mages chose the Rite because they didn't think they could fight the demons. I don't think I want a demon-possessed Warden running around. I am not sure any of my Wardens would take that risk.

Would a Tranquil be a good warrior? I don't know. Asunder and DA2 seem to be saying different things about the free will of a Tranquil. Or maybe the environment in which one is first made Tranquil has an effect on free will? If they have free will, they could conceivably aid the Wardens without becoming a warrior or a warden. Having a talented runesmith on staff would certainly be useful. One that can't be recalled by a dwarven king or a First Enchanter.

[Josielyn]

What if the Joining couldn't give a tranquil mage their magic back, but it could at least give them their emotions back? Or what if it gave them their magic back but no emotions back?  (assuming they didn't perish from the Grey Wardens' little blood magic ritual).   What if, a Tranquil Mage joined the Grey Wardens and engineered a rune to slow the progression of the taint?

Modifié par Josielyn, 26 octobre 2012 - 06:27 .

[arcaneidolriots]

planeswalker85 wrote...

Well, i've only played the DA games and not read the books but this thread raises a point i read in another forum thread namely about Ser Alrik. Its heavily alluded via ingame conversation in DA2 that he will happily abuse tranquil mages and get away with it as they don't fight back.

This ties in with others posters questions about their actual self-preservation and whether they are able to fight back properly. Now i see alot of posters have read the book Asunder that i haven't and quote alot from it but do tranquil really have 'free will' and are able to say 'No' to any commands? Thing is from past experience, Game lore and Novel Lore tend to be different and may even contradict each other at times.

Yes, the Tranquil can find the orders they are given objectable.  Gaider himself has said, 'If the Tranquil saw a reason not to follow an order, they would do so.'

If you would like to read the thread (it's rather long, but you only need to read about the first half of the page) where Gaider explained about the Tranquil and their free will, you may do so [here].

Despite what some people may feel, the lore of Asunder and the games concerning the Tranquil are not contradicting.  You have to keep in mind that everything said or written in DA is told from someone's point of view; it's why the codex entries include a note of who wrote the excerpt being quoted in the entries.  People like Anders and Adrian are going to have very different, and perhaps very biased, views of the Rite of Tranquility, who the Tranquil are, and what the Tranquil represent to mages.  Of course, the templars and the Chantry are going to have their own opinions concerning the issue.  Tranquil who chose to undergo the Rite willing are also going to have different views about their own existances, such as the Tranquil who created this amulet or the Tranquil elven woman from Asunder.

Josielyn wrote...

What if the Joining couldn't give a
tranquil mage their magic back, but it could at least give them their
emotions back? Or what if it gave them their magic back but no emotions
back?  (assuming they didn't perish from the Grey Wardens' little blood
magic ritual).   What if, a Tranquil Mage joined the Grey Wardens and
engineered a rune to slow the progression of the taint?

Well that would be a real kick: 'Most Holy, we have found a way to take away a mage's magic without making them emotionless/Tranquil! ...Unfortunately it involves blood magic.'

Avernus has already done a lot of the footwork for researching about the taint in Wardens; he was able to significantly slow the taint to the point where he was able to continue living for around two hundred years.  He wasn't able to stop the taint completely however as, if you read through his notes, he says that he is beginning to feel his Calling.  (Also, runes don't work that way, they're for enchanting weapons and armours.)

If the Joining could somehow give a Tranquil their magic but they remain emotionless, then what you would run into is the old philosphical conflicts within the Grey Warden Order.  Some Wardens believe that the erdication of the darkspawn is paramount, and that any sacrifices involved (i.e. human lives) while unfortunate are necessary.  Other Wardens believe that the protection of life is the most important part of their duty, and while they are dedicated to fighting the darkspawn, if they can save lives they will try to do so first before turning their attention to the darkspawn.  We saw this dilemma crop up in Awakening with whether the Warden should try to save Amaranthine and its survivors or burn the city along with the darkspawn and return to Vigil's Keep.

The Wardens oriented towards protection would probably look at those Tranquils Wardens with misgivings, unless they know that a particular Tranquil adheres to their philosophy.  The Wardens who align with the destruction philosophy might welcome the idea of someone who is cool and logical, with no emotions to cloud their judgment, and who is dedicated to the task at hand.  I imagine a lot of it would depend on a Tranquil's personal beliefs and what kind of Wardens they tag along with because those Wardens will undoubtly influence the Tranquil.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

berelinde wrote...

Owain's instructions were to keep the store room tidy and to fill orders with the appropriate documentation, which is why he continued to clean the place with complete disregard for personal safety. If he had been tasked with defending it against demons instead, his actions might have been very different.

In that light, Tranquil warriors might be a very scary thing indeed.

It wasn't complete. He did show an interest in getting the hell out of there, though he abandoned it the second it required any work other than walking briskly.

[Maclimes]

Do we know why some people survive the Joining, and others die? It's possible that some level of passion or drive or willpower is what allows a person to survive the Joining. If that's true, it's safe to say that any Tranquil who took the Joining would simply die, like so many others.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Maclimes wrote...

Do we know why some people survive the Joining, and others die? It's possible that some level of passion or drive or willpower is what allows a person to survive the Joining. If that's true, it's safe to say that any Tranquil who took the Joining would simply die, like so many others.

No, willpower they've got. According to the Codex it is literally impossible to distract them.

Edit: On the other hand, if it's passion the taint wants they're screwed.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 26 octobre 2012 - 10:57 .