58 réponses à ce sujet

[darrylzero]

 We probably don't need to go too far down this rabbit hole, but there's not a lot of evidence that race as we commonly conceive it has a firm genetic or scientific basis.  I mean, clearly there's something there, but obsessing over the boundaries of a concept like Caucasian is probably not fruitful, and the amount of misinformation floating around on the subject is staggering (some of it produced by a long history of racist science -- see Gould's The Mismeasure of Man).  

As for what Isabela appears to be, I think it's pretty clear that the graphical representation is imprecise enough that if we tried to map her to a real-world ethnic background it could be anything from Native American to Colombian to Brazilian to Sicilian to Roma to Arab to South Asian and probably a few more, but none of that is necessarily what she's supposed to look like, just kinda how she ends up looking.  I'll be curious to see what she looks like in the new engine, assuming we get at least a cameo.

In the meantime, as I and others have said recently, Rivain has a lot of connections to Spain but also connections to Africa, the Maghreb, Polynesia, and even the Caribbean.  Regardless, it appears to me that neither Rivainis nor other Thedosians think of this as a racial difference (of course, I'm not sure medieval Europeans would have either -- race is a modern discourse).  As a conceptual category, it seems to me that race is reserved for the distinction between humans/elves/dwarves/qunari, whereas distinctions like skin color among humans are seen as a smaller difference.  And I'd have to say that this makes sense.  I'm not sure how I feel about it, but it's logically consistent.

[The Hierophant]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I haven't played several of these games. Does anyone have any screenshots of people of color that have been created with said character creators?

Sorry i got sidetracked while trying to dragonforge some gear. I couldn't get pics from my other files as they're at the post game with it's fugly sky, and lighting  but these pics are the best shots i could get at the moment.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 24 octobre 2012 - 04:11 .

[Raikas]

challenger18 wrote...
Okay, people can think Isabela looks white (Caucasian or otherwise), but they would be wrong. Duncan, if I recall from the books is half Rivaini.  DG has stated that Rivaini people have a dark tan to ebony skin tone.

I don't think anyone is debating that Isabela/Duncan/Rivaini people in general aren't dark-skinned.  The point is that (as Fast Jimmy mentioned) using "white" and "caucasian" (or "person of colour" and "non-caucasian") interchangeably is misleading.   ETA:  Although I see in another thread that DG has specified that she's supposed to read as black and not brown, so I suppose it's a moot point.

darrylzero wrote...

 We probably don't need to go too far down this rabbit hole, but there's not a lot of evidence that race as we commonly conceive it has a firm genetic or scientific basis.  I mean, clearly there's something there, but obsessing over the boundaries of a concept like Caucasian is probably not fruitful, and the amount of misinformation floating around on the subject is staggering  

Oh, I totally agree that race is a social and not a biological construct - I don't think anyone with even a basic grasp of human biology would disagree.  But from a social perspective there's some worth in at least using the same terms so that we know what we're talking about - and I think when people want to build or see a certain look in a game it's a matter of social representation more than any kind of statement on population biology.   

I'm just trying to keep the terms more narrow so that if someone is (maybe fairly) complaining about the inability to make an attractive character that looks like their idea of a real world West African "standard" (even knowing that the standards are socially rather than biologically built) they're not saying it in a way that dismisses my equally dark-skinned character who worked out fine since I was looking at a South Asian "standard".  Nothing biological there at all.



For what it's worth, I loved that the family in DA2 changed their looks based on what you did with the character creator (versus the human and dwarf noble families in DA:O) and I think having a set look for certain backgrounds would be a step backwards - but I do think it would be interesting for national/ethnic choices to have some kind of in-game reference.

Modifié par Hervoyl, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:28 .

[chuckwells62]

In the world of Thedas, previous ethnic customization options were dwarves and elves. There is diversity within this fantasy world if you're interacting with Orlesians, Antivans, Nevarran, Fereldan, etc, but this fantasy world should not have to conform to gamers political opinions of inclusiveness.

It appears to me that they have tried to allow some degree of what some of you are asking for in the earlier games, and perhaps with the new engine such possibilities will be even more accessible, but this is a bull**** argument. If you are put off by the fact that every imaginable racial trait from the "real world" is not ingame, then its probably time to make your peace with that if you enjoyed playing Dragon Age AND remember that this is a fictional, fantasy world.

Not everything is about disenfranchising someone or other!

[Raikas]

chuckwells62 wrote...

In the world of Thedas, previous ethnic customization options were dwarves and elves. There is diversity within this fantasy world if you're interacting with Orlesians, Antivans, Nevarran, Fereldan, etc, but this fantasy world should not have to conform to gamers political opinions of inclusiveness.

It appears to me that they have tried to allow some degree of what some of you are asking for in the earlier games, and perhaps with the new engine such possibilities will be even more accessible, but this is a bull**** argument. If you are put off by the fact that every imaginable racial trait from the "real world" is not ingame, then its probably time to make your peace with that if you enjoyed playing Dragon Age AND remember that this is a fictional, fantasy world.

Not everything is about disenfranchising someone or other!

I don't think anyone said anything about "disenfranchising" - the point is that since the dwarves and elves aren't options now, what will the new options (and it's been hinted that there will be some kind of background choice beyond class) mean in terms of gameplay and characterbuilding.  And as for "real world", eh - this kind of thing can include people who want their character to be green-skinned and purple-haired:  I think the bigger point is about options, even if the details have been more "realistic" so far.

[Dasher1010]

Tancred Of The Chantry wrote...

Hervoyl wrote...

darrylzero wrote...

 We probably don't need to go too far down this rabbit hole, but there's not a lot of evidence that race as we commonly conceive it has a firm genetic or scientific basis.  I mean, clearly there's something there, but obsessing over the boundaries of a concept like Caucasian is probably not fruitful, and the amount of misinformation floating around on the subject is staggering  

Oh, I totally agree that race is a social and not a biological construct - I don't think anyone with even a basic grasp of human biology would disagree.  But from a social perspective there's some worth in at least using the same terms so that we know what we're talking about - and I think when people want to build or see a certain look in a game it's a matter of social representation more than any kind of statement on population biology.   

I'm just trying to keep the terms more narrow so that if someone is (maybe fairly) complaining about the inability to make an attractive character that looks like their idea of a real world West African "standard" (even knowing that the standards are socially rather than biologically built) they're not saying it in a way that dismisses my equally dark-skinned character who worked out fine since I was looking at a South Asian "standard".  Nothing biological there at all.

For what it's worth, I loved that the family in DA2 changed their looks based on what you did with the character creator (versus the human and dwarf noble families in DA:O) and I think having a set look for certain backgrounds would be a step backwards - but I do think it would be interesting for national/ethnic choices to have some kind of in-game reference.

I think you make a lot of good points--and I agree that it was lovely to see the family's appearance change with Hawke's appearance. But while I also agree with you about biology vs sociology, how would you imagine implementing this sociological perspective on ethnicity (or whatever you'd like to call what this discussion is about)? The problem with the idea I suggested is just that: it ties way too much biology down and it unfairly limits the player no matter how it's stretched. That said, however, it doesn't seem like you mean "ethnic" as in Rivani, Nevarran, etc. You mean, the ability to make a character look like any variety of human appearance from our real world in the fantasy world of Thedas? OK, I think that's what I misunderstood.

To put it another way, are you essentially asking for a broader spectrum for the character customization--perhaps similar to how in Saints Row 2 or the Third one can make one's character look like, well, any human from any part of the world they want to? So, for example, the inquisitor can appear to us as someone who'd be from Northeast Asia?

Northeast Asia? There isn't any correlating culture in the DA universe to Russia. At least none has be clarified as such. I'm not sure if the Anderfels or Nevarra are Slavs but one or the other probably is.

Sadly, there isn't any nation similar to East Asia nor should there be since it would make DA too confusing. We need JE2 instead.

[Raikas]

That said, however, it doesn't seem like you mean "ethnic" as in Rivani, Nevarran, etc. You mean, the ability to make a character look like any variety of human appearance from our real world in the fantasy world of Thedas? OK, I think that's what I misunderstood.

Heh, it's a bit of both and a bit of neither.

I think it would be interesting to have a choice of nationalities from within the game (I liked that the Orlesian warden in Awakenings got different) but the reality is that there won't be budget/disc space to record all the different accents that would be required for that so I can’t see it happening. I suppose the character could come from immigrant families, but we’ve seen that that’s not something that gets commented on much (Aveline and Anders are generally perceived within the game as Ferelden even though their heritage is from Orlais and Anderfels - although there are references to assumptions based on skin colour in The Calling, so maybe that could go either way).

To put it another way, are you essentially asking for a broader spectrum for the character customization--perhaps similar to how in Saints Row 2 or the Third one can make one's character look like, well, any human from any part of the world they want to?

I think a broader spectrum of character customization is a good thing, but not specifically for the sake of making characters who look like a certain real world “type” – I like the idea of a Dragon’s Dogma style height/weight customization as well. But I do think that if we’re going to talk about both in-game nationalities and the look of characters it helps to be using the same vocabulary for it, which clearly not everyone is since we have this whole space where there’s a desire to map the in-game looks (and nations) directly to some real-world equivalent.

Modifié par Hervoyl, 25 octobre 2012 - 12:30 .