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Backgrounds: What Does "Significant Impact" Mean to You?


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#51
Maclimes

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'd also like some opportunity at the beginning to role-play my background a bit.


Why just the beginning?


I think the implications of Allan's question flew right over everyone's head.

He was not asking, "Why do you want to play your background in the beginning, as opposed to not playing it at all?"

He was asking, "Why do you want to play your background in the beginning, as opposed to playing it in the beginning, middle, and end?"

I think he was hinting at the fact that backgrounds will have relevant impact and background-specific content (such as quests, stories, NPCs, or locations) throughout the entire game, not just during the prologue. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Allan. But if that's true ... it sounds way better than DA:O's "Prologue It and Forget It" mentality.

#52
darrylzero

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Maclimes wrote...

I think the implications of Allan's question flew right over everyone's head.

He was not asking, "Why do you want to play your background in the beginning, as opposed to not playing it at all?"

He was asking, "Why do you want to play your background in the beginning, as opposed to playing it in the beginning, middle, and end?"

I think he was hinting at the fact that backgrounds will have relevant impact and background-specific content (such as quests, stories, NPCs, or locations) throughout the entire game, not just during the prologue. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Allan. But if that's true ... it sounds way better than DA:O's "Prologue It and Forget It" mentality.

I should have been more clear.   I understood that Allan was trying to get us excited about the possibilities throughout the course of the narrative, and I agree with you that does sound nice (and potentially better than Origins).  It could, however, imply something much like Mass Effect, with a few odd quests are characters here and there but not much texture.  

I didn't have a problem with the way Mass Effect did it per se, but I could only become so invested in Shepard, because he was a soldier before I had anything to do with him, and I have trouble identifying with soldiers.  If, however, I could have played his past as a street tough on earth...  Well, that would have been a very different game, and I don't particularly wish Mass Effect went in that direction.  What they did worked for what they were trying to do.  

Dragon Age is different for me, though.  And while I'm thrilled they want to make our backgrounds important throughout the game, it's especially important for me that the game convincingly takes me from my background to the role I play in the story.  I want to be able to inhabit my background a bit. (or as I said before "I expect the impact of game events to change and develop my character's priorities, so I would love the chance to express my preexisting identity through words and deeds before the events of the game change the moral calculus my character is living in").

But absolutely, better still if we have opportunities to really think through how our backgrounds have shaped us throughout the narrative.  My greatest regret about DAO was that after the blight was ended, I had no chance to attempt to reverse the taint.  Many of the origins positioned characters to feel very ambivalently about the Wardens.  Yes, Duncan saved you from certain death, but becoming a Warden is pretty harsh, permanent stuff and not exaclty a fair shake in most cases (as In Exile has pointed out many times).  I felt strongly that my character would believe he'd given enough already.  It's why he was so unconcerned about the potential consequences of the Dark Ritual, and why he kept Avernus around.  A truly great expansion, I think, would have engaged with that question and allowed players to accept the taint, attempt to reverse it, and perhaps eventually decide that the costs were too high (or not).

I'm rambling now, but my point is that many backgrounds/origins could have benefited from the ability to roleplay their frustration with the situation they found themselves -- the specificis of which to me are influenced by background, particularly but not only with regard to racial, ethnic, and social hierarchies -- throughout the narrative arc of the game.  And I would love to see that .  But if I have to choose, I really, really want to inhabit that earlier role before I become whatever it is I need to become (warden, champion, seeker, inquisitor, rebel, chevalier, outlaw, revolutionary, or whatever) in order to follow the game's story.

#53
ammyretsu

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'd also like some opportunity at the beginning to role-play my background a bit.


Why just the beginning?


This better not be a subtle comment alluding to the possibility that my background will have some focal point within the present day

:o

But really, I want my background to have some significance in quests, in how important characters and NPCs view me and treat me throughout the duration of the game. I don't want to simply be given some insight into a background of my character then it barely be mentioned again (like in Mass Effect), but I want to interact with this background and the reprecussions of past choices etc within the current state of affairs.

#54
Medhia Nox

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Realistically - I'd like it to have a Maximum impact on dialogue references - a Minimum impact on main story (because I know how hard this one is to alter) - and a Moderate impact on side-quests.

Wishful thinking - as much impact as possible.

#55
xxLDZxx

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What Does "Significant Impact" Mean to You?

A Impact on the main story, different outcome of quests.

#56
deuce985

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I'd like it to reflect in both dialogue and NPC interactions.

Say I pick an apostate - I think it would be nice to see very specific content to that background. Outside the obvious dialogue interactions, people might take notice I'm an apostate mage. Maybe a bunch of ex-Templars won't like that very much and attack me on sight.  On a different background you wouldn't see that content. That's what I gather by the word "significant". I hope David was picking his words carefully because if it ends up like Mass Effect and a few lines of dialogue, I wouldn't call that "significant". ME1 had a quest associated with their backgrounds and a few lines of dialogue but I wouldn't dare use the word significant there.

Furthermore, I'd love to see them do this with specializations too. Putting backgrounds and specializations together making a reactive world would be interesting to see...

No more running around as a Blood Mage with a staff on my back and a Templar ignoring it...

Modifié par deuce985, 23 octobre 2012 - 08:50 .


#57
silentassassin264

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More than Mass Effects please. I found it funny that my sole survivor had no problem taking down all those thresher maws, including the one in Grunts recruitment mission on foot.

#58
AppealToReason

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Darth Krytie wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

Chat options
Related sidequests - if you picked like a merc background then your merc contacts go all "hey wants some moolah?"
Related codexes/run-ins
Goodies but just basic beginner ones

It would be neat to finally also get some class specific happenings. I always found it weird how in ME even with Shep being the best biotic ever he was always derpy with biotics in cut scenes or conversations. Same how in DA2 you rarely could be "hey I'm a mage and I'm dope!" when everyone is all "Bullocks to the mages! Not a neato one exists!"

It'd also be neat if your background wasn't just what you pick at the start but have a little bit of a dynamic story, not too much as that would probably cause a lot of headaches now and going forward, where you won't get an option for A or B and only C because you did X on quest 9 and then have that reflected.


I agree with this. It's weird to ask about blood magic when you're a mage. I think it'd be cool to have some things offered to you/barred to you depending on your background. Like at the landsmeet. When you could only marry Alistair/Rule the country if you're a human noble.


Agreed. *Hawke blood mage* "Derp wuts blood majix?"

Maybe have it where your class opens up different persuade/intimidate options. Warrior "I'll chop yo head off!" Mage "I'll turn you into a toad!" etc.

#59
Vicious

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Maclimes wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'd also like some opportunity at the beginning to role-play my background a bit.


Why just the beginning?


I think the implications of Allan's question flew right over everyone's head.

He was not asking, "Why do you want to play your background in the beginning, as opposed to not playing it at all?"

He was asking, "Why do you want to play your background in the beginning, as opposed to playing it in the beginning, middle, and end?"

I think he was hinting at the fact that backgrounds will have relevant impact and background-specific content (such as quests, stories, NPCs, or locations) throughout the entire game, not just during the prologue. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Allan. But if that's true ... it sounds way better than DA:O's "Prologue It and Forget It" mentality.


Gosh someone with reading comprehension on BSN? Bosh Flimshaw i say.

#60
MilaBanilla

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AllThatJazz wrote...

 I would definitely enjoy background specific content - about the same amount as, or a bit more than we got in Origins, but spread out throughout the game. A game-spanning arc of quests, that eventually forms a little story of its own would be great fun :)

Also:

Alternative ways of solving quests, when appropriate - a conflict can be resolved peacefully because the PC can empathise with the antagonist. or hell, the opposite. A conflict that could otherwise be resolved peacefully instead end in violence because the antagonist knows of your background and despises you for it.

Definitely dialogue references sprinkled throughout. And reactions - a 'known apostate' gets a more hostile reaction from most civilians than a former Circle mage; a 'Chantry raised' character gets mocked for their sheltered upbringing, and a 'Refugee' suffers discrimination.

Little touches and non-imbalancing gameplay effects- a noble can persuade another noble to stop mistreating a servant (or encourage them to continue); a thieves guild member, upon discovering a break-in in progress, can let her fellow thief escape for a small share of the loot; an Orlesian commoner is well-known by local folk and finds it much easier to get hold of information, or can talk down an angry mob (or whip them into a frenzy).

Background perks. Nobles start out with a bit more money and slightly nicer armour, Chantry-raised start out with a blessing that gives them a slight boost in combat for the early portion of the game; thieves guild members have better access to fences/sellers of poisons etc in the early stages; or just better rates with merchants generally; army veteran starts off with the best sword; former circle mages start out with decent robes and staff and maybe +1 to willpower; an Apostate gets basic gear but a +2 to magic.

I do also feel that 'no background' or 'stranger' should be an option for those who would like their character to be as much of a blank slate as possible. Obviously, anyone choosing this would not have access to any of the background-related content.

I guess that's what 'significant impact' means to me.


+1
Yes!!
I like this alot.  Little touches like these can make the game much more interesting. If the apostate gets hostility, imagine a blood mage apostate XD

#61
Pauravi

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I don't think it has to change the plot in any very drastic way, but one or two strong background-related quests or quest lines would be good, and having an impact on the course or conclusion of other main or secondary quests would also be nice.

More importantly, though, I'd like to see it change and color your interactions between your companions and other characters. This could be anything from adding/changing a line or two to some NPC dialogues to convey contempt or admiration, to perhaps having one of your companions have a very different attitude towards you and inserting specific dialogues options or even whole conversations to either change or solidify their attitude. Being that extensive is not *necessary* to my idea of what constitutes a significant impact, to be sure, but I'm just providing ideas.

The most important thing, really, is that people's reactions to you should be consistent. It is noticeable when someone reacts to you (or doesn't react to you) in a way that makes sense. Let's say your character is a Templar. Having a side quest involving a group of mages who reacts unfavorably to you, and where you have to either earn their trust or their ire is a good start. It shows their general distrust or anger, and gives you an opportunity to help define your character. But if you're then trotting about in your Templar armor and you talk to another NPC who is an apostate, it should be acknowledged with at least a line or two's worth of fear, nervousness, reluctance, obstinance, or anger -- something to show us that he recognizes what we are -- or else it really minimizes the affect that the aforementioned quest has on characterizing our interactions with magic users.

Obviously not every NPC is going to know or care who we are. Hell probably most of them don't. But there are almost always a handful of instances where I feel like the way an NPC addresses us doesn't really make sense, or at least doesn't acknowledge something that I'd expect them to. That sort of reactivity is what makes the biggest difference to me.

#62
Pauravi

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AllThatJazz wrote...

 I would definitely enjoy background specific content - about the same amount as, or a bit more than we got in Origins, but spread out throughout the game. A game-spanning arc of quests, that eventually forms a little story of its own would be great fun :)

Also:

Alternative ways of solving quests, when appropriate - a conflict can be resolved peacefully because the PC can empathise with the antagonist. or hell, the opposite. A conflict that could otherwise be resolved peacefully instead end in violence because the antagonist knows of your background and despises you for it.

Definitely dialogue references sprinkled throughout. And reactions - a 'known apostate' gets a more hostile reaction from most civilians than a former Circle mage; a 'Chantry raised' character gets mocked for their sheltered upbringing, and a 'Refugee' suffers discrimination.

Little touches and non-imbalancing gameplay effects- a noble can persuade another noble to stop mistreating a servant (or encourage them to continue); a thieves guild member, upon discovering a break-in in progress, can let her fellow thief escape for a small share of the loot; an Orlesian commoner is well-known by local folk and finds it much easier to get hold of information, or can talk down an angry mob (or whip them into a frenzy).

Background perks. Nobles start out with a bit more money and slightly nicer armour, Chantry-raised start out with a blessing that gives them a slight boost in combat for the early portion of the game; thieves guild members have better access to fences/sellers of poisons etc in the early stages; or just better rates with merchants generally; army veteran starts off with the best sword; former circle mages start out with decent robes and staff and maybe +1 to willpower; an Apostate gets basic gear but a +2 to magic.

I do also feel that 'no background' or 'stranger' should be an option for those who would like their character to be as much of a blank slate as possible. Obviously, anyone choosing this would not have access to any of the background-related content.

I guess that's what 'significant impact' means to me.


I like most or all of these ideas.  Awesome :D

#63
Bondari the Reloader

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While reading over this thread, I realized I didn't actually provide my own opinion, so here goes...

Pauravi wrote...

More importantly, though, I'd like to see it change and color your interactions between your companions and other characters. This could be anything from adding/changing a line or two to some NPC dialogues to convey contempt or admiration, to perhaps having one of your companions have a very different attitude towards you and inserting specific dialogues options or even whole conversations to either change or solidify their attitude. Being that extensive is not *necessary* to my idea of what constitutes a significant impact, to be sure, but I'm just providing ideas.

The most important thing, really, is that people's reactions to you should be consistent.


This is a really important idea to me. Not necessarily for all NPCs, but at the very least for companions. If my character is an apostate mage and I have a templar companion, there should be tension in that relationship that needs to be addressed. I also think that if your background is an especially obvious one, like barbarian or noble, that there should be consistent reactions from the general population.

I think I would prefer a side quest approach to background content, mainly because altering the main quest significantly would probably be too difficult. Spreading the quests out over the game would make it feel more a part of the character as opposed to one big quest at the beginning, middle, or end. That way it feels like our characters are really inhabiting their backgrounds.

I would also like to see some quests or quest solutions be restricted based on background. Someone already brought up the Landsmeet marriage example, and I think that's a good one. One I'll throw out from a different game is from Icewind Dale. For those who haven't played it, you adventure with a party of six player-generated characters (no companions/NPCs), and the party was tasked with covertly investigating an evil cult. Unfortunately, my paladin got to the door first, and before she could even open her mouth the cultist was all, "DIE, PALADIN, DIE!", resulting in the whole compound going hostile and my poor unprepared party getting slaughtered. I reloaded the game, made sure one of my other characters got to the door first, and all was good. In spite of the disatrous outcome the first time, I was glad that the cultists were able to "smell the holiness" on my paladin and reacted appropriately. While I don't think all quests should be this way, I would like it if some people just refused to help you or tried to kill you on sight because of your background.

#64
Raikas

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Definitely dialogue references sprinkled throughout. And reactions - a 'known apostate' gets a more hostile reaction from most civilians than a former Circle mage; a 'Chantry raised' character gets mocked for their sheltered upbringing, and a 'Refugee' suffers discrimination.
Little touches and non-imbalancing gameplay effects- a noble can persuade another noble to stop mistreating a servant (or encourage them to continue); a thieves guild member, upon discovering a break-in in progress, can let her fellow thief escape for a small share of the loot; an Orlesian commoner is well-known by local folk and finds it much easier to get hold of information, or can talk down an angry mob (or whip them into a frenzy).
Background perks. Nobles start out with a bit more money and slightly nicer armour, Chantry-raised start out with a blessing that gives them a slight boost in combat for the early portion of the game; thieves guild members have better access to fences/sellers of poisons etc in the early stages; or just better rates with merchants generally; army veteran starts off with the best sword; former circle mages start out with decent robes and staff and maybe +1 to willpower; an Apostate gets basic gear but a +2 to magic.

These are all really solid ideas.
Even without that level of difference, I'd be happy just to have some minor references sprinkled though the whole game.  Awakenings did a really nice job of that - I liked that a Cousland wardern had an extra history with the Howes, that a mage warden had extra lines with Anders, that the Orlesian warden was viewed with suspicion.   A few distinct cutscenes and a couple of unique quests would be even better. 

I'd also like to see any background detail plot- or theme-related come up in the dialogue options. There's that bit in MotA with Hawke and Tallis talking about the Qun, and even though every Hawke grew up with two mages in the family and he/she can also be a mage and/or in a relationship with a mage, there's no option to bring up the whole collared/mouth-sewn-shut thing - even a short throw-away extra line in a situation like that makes it that much more immersive.
 

#65
Dagr88

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Are those backgrounds will be like origins (different people) or more like Hawke back story (child of a specific couple who happened to be a boy/girl and a mage/non-mage).

And will our background determine specialization? (significant impact) Or will we just get it by talking to person for 2 minutes? Or there will be some Acts and will learn it in between? Or will just invite "a teacher" to our castle where s/he will teach us over the course of the game?

Modifié par Dagr88, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:47 .


#66
Allan Schumacher

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ianvillan wrote...

So you dont get the same problems DA2 had where you are told Hawke is running from the blight with his family, but it would of been better if we got to play Hawke in Lothering to see get to know and care about our family, to see what our home was like before it was distroyed.

All we had in DA2 was people we were meant to care about but who were strangers to us, I cared more about Wesleys death in the tutorial then I did my family members.


So you think it would be better if the game did not provide opportunities to roleplay based on your background selection beyond the beginning of the game?

#67
Sable Rhapsody

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I thought DA:O covered the backgrounds (beyond just the playable origins) reasonably well. A mention here, a quest dialogue change there. None of this "HEY YOU'RE AN ELF WE REMEMBERED YOU'RE AN ELF" business.

#68
The Elder King

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ianvillan wrote...

So you dont get the same problems DA2 had where you are told Hawke is running from the blight with his family, but it would of been better if we got to play Hawke in Lothering to see get to know and care about our family, to see what our home was like before it was distroyed.

All we had in DA2 was people we were meant to care about but who were strangers to us, I cared more about Wesleys death in the tutorial then I did my family members.


My Hawke generally hated Wesley, because he was sure that he'd have came after his sister the moment they were safe from the Blight. I wasn't happy about Wesley's death, but he surely didn't mourn him.
It's strange actually, the game didn't a good job on portraying Hawke's family in the prologue (I agree with your idea of haing a playable part in Lothering), but I actually cared a lot of Hawke's family members, from the moment I played the demo. It's probably because it was one of the thing I was more expecting in the game (and iit was one of the things that I was most disappointed in the game)

Modifié par hhh89, 24 octobre 2012 - 09:36 .


#69
wajaklar

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

So you dont get the same problems DA2 had where you are told Hawke is running from the blight with his family, but it would of been better if we got to play Hawke in Lothering to see get to know and care about our family, to see what our home was like before it was distroyed.

All we had in DA2 was people we were meant to care about but who were strangers to us, I cared more about Wesleys death in the tutorial then I did my family members.


So you think it would be better if the game did not provide opportunities to roleplay based on your background selection beyond the beginning of the game?


I think he meant to show that additionally, not instead of every other roleplay opportunity in the game.

As ianvillain said DA2 just put you right in the action where Lothering was attacked. It would have been nice to see Hawke life before that, so we can appreciate what he/she just lost. That was  a big plus in DA: Origins in my opinion. As a noble dwarf I hated Bhelen because of what he did to my character. As Hawke...well I never knew what I lost so I had no strong feelings towards the darkspawn besides the obvious "bad guys-dislike". Even when Carver died (I chose a warrior myself so Bethany was the obvious choice) was killed i felt indifferent because I had no real chance to get to know him.

Modifié par wajaklar, 24 octobre 2012 - 09:59 .


#70
ianvillan

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

So you dont get the same problems DA2 had where you are told Hawke is running from the blight with his family, but it would of been better if we got to play Hawke in Lothering to see get to know and care about our family, to see what our home was like before it was distroyed.

All we had in DA2 was people we were meant to care about but who were strangers to us, I cared more about Wesleys death in the tutorial then I did my family members.


So you think it would be better if the game did not provide opportunities to roleplay based on your background selection beyond the beginning of the game?



Your right of course the backgrounds should be across the whole game, but I was relying to how darrylzero said that he wanted to be able play the background in the begining instead of just being told you're background.

In my opinion if we had the chance to play Hawkes beginning in lothering it would of helped get to know Hawke and his family better and let you know what you are running from.

Of course I dont know what Bioware plans for the backgrounds but if it is just a discription of events that happened it wont be as good as if you actually get to play those events.

#71
Guest_Fandango_*

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Super thread! For me, I would hope that the 'significant impact' of our origin choices would play out in a way that allows us to experience the game\\story differently. Things like origin specific quests, party members and divergent NPC reactions\\interactions would be delicious.

EDIT: perhaps even a new location or three?

Modifié par Fandango9641, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:11 .


#72
TheRealJayDee

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wajaklar wrote...


As ianvillain said DA2 just put you right in the action where Lothering was attacked. It would have been nice to see Hawke life before that, so we can appreciate what he/she just lost.


It wasn't even that. There was no Lothering, no attack. There was just a group of unknown people running through a deserted landscape, fighting off bizarre creatures...

#73
robertthebard

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Being able to play the background in ME might have backfired for some. I know that Brutal Renegade sounds really cool, but few, if any of the people that played it understood what Brutal really meant, it just sounded cool for their Renegade run.

That said, those kinds of backstories could work out well. Despite objections to characterization based on the background expressed here. If the background doesn't fit what you want your character to be like, simply don't pick that one. It may well come down to the best option, depending on what's offered. At this point, with absolutely no knowledge of what they entail, simply knowing that they'll exist, it's hard to say what I want from them. I would, however, expect them to play a role in the game. If I pick, for example, Streetwise Thug, I'd expect my conversation options/autodialog to reflect that. I understand that some would pick it because it sounds cool, and then be indignant about how the dialog plays out, but really, if they don't know what it means, it's their own fault.

The impact could be really subtle, so long as it's reflected throughout the game, consistently. Even if that means that some conversations would be completely different. This leads to replayability, even if the ultimate destination is the same, the journeys could be completely different, and that would be nice.

#74
Zeleen

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I like to have the significance of my background influence my gameplay... a true RPG ... but at the same time give the character the opportunity to "overcome" his background... not being familiar with how the game intends to actually do it it is hard to say "this or that" I think the main thing is DON'T PUNISH THE PLAYER FOR A CHOSEN BACKGROUND" heh heh
But I like the idea of "who you are" coming across throughout the game...

I'd like to see it a bit like  tree  roots being the back ground - and the paths to the main objective (whatever it may be influenced by those roots.. interactions, quests, and even Main Story quests being different etc.   I'd like to see that the main quest is also to a point reflected by your path from those roots..  with maybe several different "endings"  available...   it would give us the option of playing the game again with entirely different quests, different main story quests...  and different endings
some quests may be repeated but still "different"  ...  a game you can play for years...   Posted Image

Modifié par Zeleen, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:29 .


#75
Uccio

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The thing that comes out will be another ME3, in DA world. Nothing more.