328 réponses à ce sujet

[PsychoBlonde]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

No. I nearly died of boredom when I tried to replay DAO because the combat was so bloody monotonous. I liked DA2 style a lot more.

Yes.

I think I'd ike to do more of a DA2 movement speed/motion, but have actual damaging attacks come at a slightly slower rate and do more damage.  The interim motions can be like the defensive parries you got in NwN.  I miss those.

[AntiChri5]

Filament wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Filament wrote...

lol, the animation style of the first game is part of the 'lore' now.

Well...if my dalish warden could leap 70 through the air, like Talis can(no magic involved)

I wonder if you were crying about this in Jade Empire too.

then the Deep Roads would have been alot easier, wouldn`t they?

The animations don't change your exploration capabilities whatsoever.

Sadly; gravity is a part of the setting. It kills Riordan, for example. So yes. Laws of physics, unless stated otherwise, falls under the lore of a fantasy setting. Common Knowledge, and all that.

As Zjar said, DAO animations already fail to abide by the "laws of physics." (and that includes "injuries," lol. Because it's very realistic heal a cracked skull with some gauze and tonic. Not to mention that DA2 has the same mechanic.)

The animation style has always been disconnected to a certain extent from the narrative, which is the same reason people complaining about Leliana because they 'chopped her head off' miss the point. Fidelity to basic things like the fact that you killed someone is usually maintained (and to be fair we don't know that this is not the case for Leliana because we don't have all the info), but beyond that they're going to jazz up the animations so that you can set people on fire and be set on fire, stun an entire group of enemies with one arrow, freeze people solid and be frozen solid, etc etc because a realistic medieval combat simulator would be boring and no one would play it.

Mount and Blade does a fantastic job of being realistic while still being fun and interesting.

[philippe willaume]

Unknown_Warrior wrote...
<snip>

DA2 was harder, but not in the good way. Wave combat made for rather cheap deaths,
<snip>

i agree with you post in genaral.  Though i prefered DA:0. and found DA:0 more chalenging (but i used sub-optimal builds)
about the waves, I found that the waves were king of usefull and a re-fuelling source of stamina for warriors so it made fights much easier.

Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:44 .

[Wulfram]

Filament wrote...

I wonder if you were crying about this in Jade Empire too.

Different genre, not really comparable.

Also the animations in JE were in general a hell of a lot more natural looking than those in DA2.  If Bioware has to continue with the flashy style, then taking a look at Jade Empire would be a great idea.

[Foolsfolly]

TurianFrigate wrote...

 Please Bioware give us a combat system that looks real like in DAO. Sure you can do it like in DAII without the stupid ninja ****. I mean I loose the sense of realism when in DAII a common thug can move like a freaking karate master. The whole game becomes infuriating with Varric giving the enemy a shower of arrows that do almost no damage from a single crossbow. Make it like DAO not like DAII. Further more I could stand a Kingdoms of Amalur combat, but I would love a Witcher 2 like combat.

I know what you want but you're not asking for it correctly. You want a less stylized combat look not realistic. Realistic combat would mean light armor is useless and heavy armored oppoents wail at each other for a bit and then resort to wrestling clumisily until one of them finally kills the other. And all strategy goes out the door when the melee starts because chaos reigns supreme on the battlefield.

Again, I know what you're asking for but the very idea that realism should be in a video game is not only preposterous but completely detrimental to enjoying a game. (Example the rain of arrows ability is a great one because it allowed for archers to finally get a crowd control ability. I really disliked archers in Origins and enjoyed them greatly in DA2. Powers and abilities that offer you roles for gameplay > realism)

As for the style the ninja jumping and three meter dashes were a nice way to make up for the Warden Shuffle in Origins. I cannot stand the Warden Shuffle and if jumping or dashing resolves that problem I'll happily choose dashing/jumping every time. If there's a way to make the animation look less unlikely in platemail then I'd support it but I wouldn't suggest BioWare waste their resources investigating that. The dash is simply better than having characters wander around in squares trying to line up attacks or stand idly by as the enemy walks past them because their melee attack didn't line up just right.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:17 .

[Rune-Chan]

I guess a lot of people wouldn't care in the next James Bond film if his car suddenly started flying without any form of propulsion during a car chase then.

After all, the way car chases happen in those films are hardly realistic as they are. So who needs it to be even remotely believable?

[TonberryFeye]

DA2's combat system was clearly made for the ADHD crowd. There was only one battle in the ENTIRE GAME where I felt the need to make any kind of tactical choice more complex than "which enemy do I kill first?"

Origins? Many more tactical battles. Yes, I am well aware that there were very broken builds (Paralysis + Repulsion removed a LOT of tactical planning requirements by turning 2/3rds of every combat into a game of smack the statues) but when those broken builds weren't employed, overall strategy mattered.

As others have no doubt said, the habitual "spam 3 more waves of mooks" for EVERY. GOD. DAMN. FIGHT. was so annoying that the very thought of it drowns any desire to replay DA2. Bioware, it's okay to have a small band of enemies that don't have 10x as many friends magically hiding off screen somewhere.

I think the overall issue the DA franchise suffers from is that, because the players heal and recharge stamina/mana so quickly post fight, potions are largely moot save for when you screw up badly, or are fighting a Boss Monster. Just fixing that would go some way to bringing the difficulty curve back to where it should be, rather than trying to make us feel we 'need' to use health potions because that 3-man band of muggers still have eighty friends left to jump out of the pickle jars they were carrying.

[Unknown_Warrior]

philippe willaume wrote...

Unknown_Warrior wrote...
<snip>

DA2 was harder, but not in the good way. Wave combat made for rather cheap deaths,
<snip>

i agree with you post in genaral.  Though i prefered DA:0. and found DA:0 more chalenging (but i used sub-optimal builds)
about the waves, I found that the waves were ling of usefull and a re-fuelling source of stamina for warriors so it made fights much easier.

Phil

I found myself cursing quite frequently at DA2 when hitherto unknown assailants jumped from nearby rooftops to decimate Isabella/Anders who were killing a lone opponent/casting from afar respectively while I was a bit futher away trying to get all attackers to pile me, since I was actually equipped to withstand more than 3 enemy hits.

So yeah, I had to frequently check out my minimap and allies' hp to determine whether a new group of jerks joined the fore and get them to target me.

But aside from that DA2's actual combat was more fun. More thinking on your feet, better responsiveness, feels like you have some weight to your attacks. DAO was more: set sustainables, do initial spells, wail on your enemies, get a drink, go out with your friends, return half an hour later to see your enemies dead (exaggeration here, woopwoop).

Generally, DA2 was more fun in its actual combat, while DAO was more fun in its preparation of combat. DA2 had a sense of accomplishment when you saw your team properly cooperating, timing your spells/talents and attacks and seeing an enemy flail around helplessly. It was visceral, it was on your feet thinking. While DAO was more fun in a chessmaster kind of sense. Line up your sustainables and spells to see piles of enemies crumble beneath your mighty foot.

Modifié par Unknown_Warrior, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:28 .

[LeBurns]

TonberryFeye wrote...

DA2's combat system was clearly made for the ADHD crowd. There was only one battle in the ENTIRE GAME where I felt the need to make any kind of tactical choice more complex than "which enemy do I kill first?"

Origins? Many more tactical battles. Yes, I am well aware that there were very broken builds (Paralysis + Repulsion removed a LOT of tactical planning requirements by turning 2/3rds of every combat into a game of smack the statues) but when those broken builds weren't employed, overall strategy mattered.

As others have no doubt said, the habitual "spam 3 more waves of mooks" for EVERY. GOD. DAMN. FIGHT. was so annoying that the very thought of it drowns any desire to replay DA2. Bioware, it's okay to have a small band of enemies that don't have 10x as many friends magically hiding off screen somewhere.

I think the overall issue the DA franchise suffers from is that, because the players heal and recharge stamina/mana so quickly post fight, potions are largely moot save for when you screw up badly, or are fighting a Boss Monster. Just fixing that would go some way to bringing the difficulty curve back to where it should be, rather than trying to make us feel we 'need' to use health potions because that 3-man band of muggers still have eighty friends left to jump out of the pickle jars they were carrying.

Well said.  I generally discribe DA2's combat as Super Flying Ninja Monkey's.  I hate it.  I hate that I can win most battles by closing my eyes and pressing a button as fast as I can.  I liked DAO's realistic combat.  You could tell that real motion actors were used for the animations.  DA2 ... even Chuck Norris couldn't pull those moves off.


I also know that with Mike in charge nothing is going to change though, so DA3 is basically off the radar.  At least I hope that people are going to be smart enough to not fall for that pre-release hype and adds that will be splashed everywhere.  That they won't fall for the 'reviews' from the sites taking all that money for the adds.  That pre-orders because the prior game was so great won't make it look like a success when it isn't.

[challenger18]

I liked DA2 combat, it made classes I would never play fun. I liked being a rogue because rogues are fast and I HAVE to open every single chest I come across. It makes sense that they would be agile and move all over the place.

I liked that for a mage they actually had them attacking with their staff when an enemy got too close to them. That is a wonderful detail that they added.

I did not like the shuffle step combat that was in DAO, and am immensly grateful they got rid of it. I also hated the combat in the Witcher 2. It was sluggish at the best of times. But, since DA3 seems to be a mix of both DAO and DA2, then the combat can be as well, right? No more roundhouse kicks to flasks, but the animations should still be entertaining and each class should have a distinct feel to them.

[SugizoSama]

I'm begging for Witcher 2 combat, or Dragon's Dogma combat with added dodging

[Foolsfolly]

SugizoSama wrote...

I'm begging for Witcher 2 combat, or Dragon's Dogma combat with added dodging

I can't speak for Dragon's Dogma but TW2's combat is terrible. Half of your spells are useless, gadgets are sometimes useful, potions and buffs need precognition to use correctly (can't apply during combat so you have to know in advance what you'll be fighting), and it breaks down to Left button fast and right button slow. So you just mash one mouse button repeatly.

There's not even any combos to go along with it. There are a few enemies that seem easier to kill with either fast or slow attacks but for the most part one's about the same as the other.

And worst thing about it all is that TW2's combat works for a SOLO CHARACTER not an entire team of characters working together. It's like saying you want Skyrim's combat in DA3 (Skyrim's combat has a lot of similarities to TW2's combat only buffs and potions and poisons can be added during combat and the spells are more useful and while it's completely unneeded there are actual tactics with shields and shield bashing which is fun... but again completely unneeded.)


EDIT:

This is why in some posts David Gaider says stuff like "Fans don't know what they want" by the way.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 23 octobre 2012 - 07:12 .

[Rune-Chan]

Foolsfolly wrote...
This is why in some posts David Gaider says stuff like "Fans don't know what they want" by the way.

True, but if they had stuck with one idea, then they wouldn't have such a divided fanbase. Bioware love going in different directions in direct sequels and always end up splitting up the fanbase when they do so.

This is why I mentioned in the other thread about how it makes more sense to stick with what you have, expand upon it and improve it, rather than removing something completely and trying something new.

[Iosev]

The combat in The Witcher 2 is certainly designed around solo play, so I don't think that it could be easily implemented into a party-based game. At the same time, I also do not think that it is impossible to meld action-oriented gameplay with a party-based system (e.g., Mass Effect melds action/TPS gameplay with a squad-based system), although it would probably require a dramatically different approach than the one used in DA:O and DA 2 (and contrary to what some believe, I don't really think that DA:O and DA 2 were that different from each other in regards to gameplay), something that I imagine many fans would resist, although I'm personally open to changes in direction.

Modifié par arcelonious, 23 octobre 2012 - 07:24 .

[Chaos Lord Malek]

DA2 combat was probably best part of the game (besides Qunari rework), so definitely no going back to DA:O slow motion matrix style please!

And not to mention condom hea.... i mean mages combat animations!

[Atakuma]

I liked DA2's style, what I didn't like were the animations. They were all very stiff and jerky, as if they removed some frames in the middle to make it look faster.

[The Hierophant]

Dragon's Dogma's melee combat with Da2's mage combat, and party tactics? This would make me giddy like a South Korean schoolgirl who's about to get her poster autographed by PSY.

[Sharn01]

Magic existing within the universe does not excuse people who do not possess magic from doing super human maneuver's to the extreme. I do want combat embellished some, no, it will never be realistic, that doesn't mean you can have them do what ever they want without it breaking immersion.

[MillKill]

This is a world of magic, potions, demons, dragons, lyrium, and monsters. Any attempt to constrain combat animations due to realism at this point is arbitrary and inconsistent.

Flashy moves are at least interesting to look at and increased mobility keeps combat from dragging on longer than necessary.

[Todd23]

MillKill wrote...

This is a world of magic, potions, demons, dragons, lyrium, and monsters. Any attempt to constrain combat animations due to realism at this point is arbitrary and inconsistent.

Flashy moves are at least interesting to look at and increased mobility keeps combat from dragging on longer than necessary.

... But, all those things you listed are real. 

[MillKill]

Todd23 wrote...

MillKill wrote...

This is a world of magic, potions, demons, dragons, lyrium, and monsters. Any attempt to constrain combat animations due to realism at this point is arbitrary and inconsistent.

Flashy moves are at least interesting to look at and increased mobility keeps combat from dragging on longer than necessary.

... But, all those things you listed are real. 

Magic, potions, demons, dragons, lyrium, and monsters are real?

[johndud0]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Aulis Vaara wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

No. I nearly died of boredom when I tried to replay DAO because the combat was so bloody monotonous. I liked DA2 style a lot more.

How? DA2's combat was way more boring, in my humble opinion. There was no thinking involved, no planning,

Yeah there was if you played on nightmare.

So we must go the highest difficulty to make the player think?

What the hell?

Maybe it's just me but without playing on nightmare on any difficulty it's gonna be super easy, I've played both games and both are too damn easy and hardly require strategy but once you bump up to nightmare mode it's a whole different story...that being said DA2 makes me want to crap bricks on nightmare and trying to use tactics to their best ability, I will literally send someone 50 dollars for proof of someone beating DA2 nightmare mode under a certain condition ( No pausing to issue orders, only to analyze situations, issuing orders for party members has to be in realtime)

[johndud0]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Ugh magic rules out any chance of realism, SOME aspects in DA2 could use improving, but it was vastly superior to DA:Os, while DA:O tactics were much better, a mix of both is the best way imo to go.

How were DA:O tactics better?