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[MisterJB]

After merging with Justice, Anders became narrow mindedly focused in his own version of freedom and justice.
As much as I might disagree with his concept of it, freedom and justice are worthy ideals. So, why not focuse on the Greater Opressor, the very source of the anti mage stigma? The Tevinter Imperium.
Life is not perfect in the South of Thedas. However; and Fenris would agree with me; living under Andrastian rule is a huge improvement for everyone. Humans, mages, elves.
Everyone but the mages enjoy freedom under Andraste; there is social inequality between humans and elves but in Tevinter, nobles like Vaughan are the norm while in Ferelden or Orlais, they are the exception. Slaves in Tevinter have been indocrinated to the point where they can't even conceive the notion of rebellion. Magisters bleed children at parties for entertainment.
Even the mages who face a great deal of fear and suspicion, live in a luxurious tower where they are fed, clothed, educated and their opinions take into account by all but the worse Knight Commanders such as Meredith. in Tevinter, if you are not particularly powerful and willing to perform blood rituals, it won't matter if you're a mage. You'll be in chains as well.

So, why make the Chantry a priority? I'm not claiming Divines or Templars have never done anything widely considered as wrong, but we should be able to agree that Tevinter is much, much worse.
A mage starting a rebellion supported by both mages and mundanes there would have earned the mages a lot of sympathy. I wouldn't claim the Chantry would; or should; dissolve the Circle should Tevinter fall but it would certainly be preferable to a terrorist attack against a Grand Cleric.

So, why not Tevinter? Is it possible Anders is a mage supremacist? I am aware he is seen helping mundanes. However, for someone who claims to believe in freedom and justice, he never seems particularly repulsed whenever Tevinter is mentioned. In fact, he seems to believe it is preferable to Andrastian Society.
And when Leliana claims that, should Kirkwall fall to Maleficar, no one will be safe, Anders is quickly to retort that "none of them" will be safe. Is he referring to Chantry officials? Or mundanes in general?

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 octobre 2012 - 01:58 .

[Vandicus]

Hmmm, interesting points, though I wonder how Anders came to have such a view of Tevinter(or maleficar for that matter), especially in light of his distaste for blood magic.

These may just be symptoms of the manipulation of the mysterious villain of DA3 who pulled the strings to start the war.

[LobselVith8]

Karl, his first love, was in Kirkwall. It makes sense that, after Karl's death, he would focus his energies on dealing with the Gallows, given the horror stories Karl was describing in his letters. Anders seems to have gotten involved with the mage underground as a consequence of Karl's tranquility. After the events of Dragon Age II, I think the Rivani seers would be Anders' best bet to understand his symbiosis with Justice.

[The Elder King]

Considering he was talkign to Leliana, I'd say it was referring to the Chantry. Remember that he says, on the friendship path, that the people in the Chantry deserve justice too, and that he should be killed, regardless the fact he thinks what he did was right.
About why he decided to help the Circle mages and not the Tevinter slaves, I think it's because the mages are his people, and because he wanted to help his people. Justice in DAA said that he should be more concerned of his people's problem, and it was talking about the mages.
I'm not saying that Tevinter is better than the Andrastian society (I'll gladly lead an alliance of nations to obliterare his government, though they are useful in containing the Qunari), but Ander's goal was the freedom of the mages, his people, from the an institution of the society he was born and raised.
There were people in our history who fight for the freedom of nations that weren't their own (Garibaldi, for example), but in general people fights the society in which they were oorn. During the French Revolution, the French were thinking of freeing themselves from the monarchy. I doubt that they'd have cared for people of other nations.

[Xilizhra]

The same reason Superman didn't go to, say, Iran: charity begins at home. Also, neither one has any personal experience with Tevinter that'd elicit the same rage-driven zeal that they have against the templars, so they'd be less inclined and probably less effective.
Also, given that all we've seen from Tevinter is biased reporting and two slaver operations, one of them being a completely private venture by one obsessed magister, I doubt you can make a fair assessment of the place yet. Certainly you can't say anything about the general moral character of all of their nobles, or say that they're all like Vaughan, based on a few codex entries. Additionally, elves have been seen to rise in military office in Tevinter, whereas nothing of the kind has been seen in Andrastian territory, not to mention the fact that elven nobles serve alongside human ones as equals in Tevinter and that anyone with magical talent can become a magister, instead of having it be rule by strictly noble families.

So, why not Tevinter? Is it possible Anders is a mage supremacist? I am aware he is seen helping mundanes. However, for someone who claims to believe in freedom and justice, he never seems particularly repulsed whenever Tevinter is mentioned. In fact, he seems to believe it is preferable to Andrastian Society.

He prefers the Imperial Chantry to the Andrastian one. So does my Hawke, at least in terms of doctrine alone. Hardly any conflict there.

And when Leliana claims that, should Kirkwall fall to Maleficar, no one will be safe, Anders is quickly to retort that "none of them" will be safe. Is he referring to Chantry officials? Or mundanes in general?

Chantry officials.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Karl, his first love, was in Kirkwall. It makes sense that, after Karl's death, he would focus his energies on dealing with the Gallows, given the horror stories Karl was describing in his letters. Anders seems to have gotten involved with the mage underground as a consequence of Karl's tranquility. After the events of Dragon Age II, I think the Rivani seers would be Anders' best bet to understand his symbiosis with Justice.

I agree on most part of your post, with the exception of the last one. If there was a way to separate Anders from Justice, and then kill Justice, I'd have chose that way without second thought. I don't know how the symbiosis with the spirit works in Rivain (maybe similar to Wynne's)  but I think that before starting the symbiosis they are sure that the mage are not in a condition that will corrupt the spirit. At the start of DA2, I don't consider Justice any more than a malicious spirit/demon. You'd have probably a different opinion, but I'll not change mine. 

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
About why he decided to help the Circle mages and not the Tevinter slaves, I think it's because the mages are his people, and because he wanted to help his people. Justice in DAA said that he should be more concerned of his people's problem, and it was talking about the mages.
I'm not saying that Tevinter is better than the Andrastian society (I'll gladly lead an alliance of nations to obliterare his government, though they are useful in containing the Qunari), but Ander's goal was the freedom of the mages, his people, from the an institution of the society he was born and raised.
There were people in our history who fight for the freedom of nations that weren't their own (Garibaldi, for example), but in general people fights the society in which they were oorn. During the French Revolution, the French were thinking of freeing themselves from the monarchy. I doubt that they'd have cared for people of other nations.

But, unlike the french, mages don't feel any sort of national identity. A ferelden mage is a mage first and a ferelden second. And Justice, as a spirit, should have recognized Tevinter as the greater injustice.
Mages are slaves in Tevinter too and a victory there could have earned a great amount of sympathy for the mages "back home".
I understand your argument and I think it's probrably the closest to the truth, BTW.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...


He prefers the Imperial Chantry to the Andrastian one. So does my Hawke, at least in terms of doctrine alone. Hardly any conflict there.

Both are flawed, in my opinion. The Imperial Chantry doesn't  restrict mage's freedom like the White Chantry, but it certainly has no problem in enslaving an entire race (with the exception of the mages) and don't know if humans too. If you think that the Circle system enslave the mages, why would you think that a system that let an entire race to be enslaved is better?

[Xilizhra]

I agree on most part of your post, with the exception of the last one. If there was a way to separate Anders from Justice, and then kill Justice, I'd have chose that way without second thought. I don't know how the symbiosis with the spirit works in Rivain (maybe similar to Wynne's) but I think that before starting the symbiosis they are sure that the mage are not in a condition that will corrupt the spirit. At the start of DA2, I don't consider Justice any more than a malicious spirit/demon. You'd have probably a different opinion, but I'll not change mine.

My opinion differs as well. Justice isn't malicious as such, just overzealous, and I'm certain this can be cured.

But, unlike the french, mages don't feel any sort of national identity. A ferelden mage is a mage first and a ferelden second. And Justice, as a spirit, should have recognized Tevinter as the greater injustice.

Through the Fraternities, mages are feeling a steadily greater sense of national identity and unity.

Both are flawed, in my opinion. The Imperial Chantry doesn't  restrict
mage's freedom like the White Chantry, but it certainly has no problem
in enslaving an entire race (with the exception of the mages) and don't
know if humans too. If you think that the Circle system enslave the
mages, why would you think that a system that let an entire race to be
enslaved is better?

Not all elves are slaves, unless military officers in Tevinter are commonly slaves as well. And Fenris was unsurprised by his sister no longer being a slave before learning that she was a mage.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 23 octobre 2012 - 02:19 .

[LobselVith8]

hhh89,

Justice was always militant about his ideals. I never saw much difference between his unwavering views on his ideals in Amaranthine, and in Kirkwall. I still think it would be a good idea for Anders to see the Rivaini seers post-Annulment, since they may know more than Anders because of their millennia of merging with the denizens of the Fade.

@ OP, I don't think Anders is a mage supremacist, since he says the elves of the Alienage should fight for their rights alongside the mages.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

But, unlike the french, mages don't feel any sort of national identity. A ferelden mage is a mage first and a ferelden second. And Justice, as a spirit, should have recognized Tevinter as the greater injustice.
Mages are slaves in Tevinter too and a victory there could have earned a great amount of sympathy for the mages "back home".
I understand your argument and I think it's probrably the closest to the truth, BTW.

I agree, but Anders feels that the mages (don't know if only in the Andrastian society or in Tevinter too) are his "people". I'm not judging if it's right or wrong, only that he saw them in that way, in my opinion.

[fchopin]

Imo he should have gone on top of a high mountain and then done a good jump.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hhh89,

Justice was always militant about his ideals. I never saw much difference between his unwavering views on his ideals in Amaranthine, and in Kirkwall. I still think it would be a good idea for Anders to see the Rivaini seers post-Annulment, since they may know more than Anders because of their millennia of merging with the denizens of the Fade.

.

Vengeance wanted to kill a mage that was about to be Tranquilized only few minuted earlier, just because she was scared of him/it.
Not that I'm saying that Justice was a pacate spirit in DAA, just that he was more aggressive and extremist as Vengeance. Plus, in Act 1, Anders himself said that it wasn't Justice anymore.
I think we're not going to agree on this matter. I saw Justice/Vengeance in a different way from you. I think it's a matter open to different interpretations.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Also, given that all we've seen from Tevinter is biased reporting and two slaver operations, one of them being a completely private venture by one obsessed magister, I doubt you can make a fair assessment of the place yet. Certainly you can't say anything about the general moral character of all of their nobles, or say that they're all like Vaughan, based on a few codex entries. Additionally, elves have been seen to rise in military office in Tevinter, whereas nothing of the kind has been seen in Andrastian territory, not to mention the fact that elven nobles serve alongside human ones as equals in Tevinter and that anyone with magical talent can become a magister, instead of having it be rule by strictly noble families.

Dozens of Codex entries detailing the exploits of magisters, the first hand report of a former slave, a meeting with a magister, seeing more magisters in the comics. From all accounts, Tevinter is the worst place on Thedas for everyone but the Magisters who have turned the land into their personal playground.
Those elves who have risen have done so by enslaving other elves and humans. An elf faces much hardship in Andrastian rule but s/he is free and, through hard work, can rise as high as any other peasant born human.
I don't hold any particular love for feudalism but it's not as bad as a system of government where power is determined by who can throw the biggest fireball.

He prefers the Imperial Chantry to the Andrastian one. So does my Hawke, at least in terms of doctrine alone. Hardly any conflict there.

The Imperial Chantry is an invention of the magisters as a way to justify holding on to power. It can't be separated from the actions of the magisters.

Chantry officials.

I have my doubts.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

I agree on most part of your post, with the exception of the last one. If there was a way to separate Anders from Justice, and then kill Justice, I'd have chose that way without second thought. I don't know how the symbiosis with the spirit works in Rivain (maybe similar to Wynne's) but I think that before starting the symbiosis they are sure that the mage are not in a condition that will corrupt the spirit. At the start of DA2, I don't consider Justice any more than a malicious spirit/demon. You'd have probably a different opinion, but I'll not change mine.

My opinion differs as well. Justice isn't malicious as such, just overzealous, and I'm certain this can be cured.

I know that a lot of people see it in a different way than mine. I'm not saying that you're necessarily wrong. My opinion is simply different. I see no problem in that.

Not all elves are slaves, unless military officers in Tevinter are commonly slaves as well. And Fenris was unsurprised by his sister no longer being a slave before learning that she was a mage.

I forgot the elven officer/officers in DAO. I don't know how much elves can be free, but you're probably right.
That doesn't mean that the system legalizes the slavery, and that a lot of people are slaves (in a larger number than the mages in Andrastian society). That system is wrong and no better than than the Circle system.

[MissOuJ]

hhh89 wrote...

wrote...

Karl, his first love, was in Kirkwall. It makes sense that, after Karl's death, he would focus his energies on dealing with the Gallows, given the horror stories Karl was describing in his letters. Anders seems to have gotten involved with the mage underground as a consequence of Karl's tranquility. After the events of Dragon Age II, I think the Rivani seers would be Anders' best bet to understand his symbiosis with Justice.

I agree on most part of your post, with the exception of the last one. If there was a way to separate Anders from Justice, and then kill Justice, I'd have chose that way without second thought. I don't know how the symbiosis with the spirit works in Rivain (maybe similar to Wynne's)  but I think that before starting the symbiosis they are sure that the mage are not in a condition that will corrupt the spirit. At the start of DA2, I don't consider Justice any more than a malicious spirit/demon. You'd have probably a different opinion, but I'll not change mine. 

Umm... kinda tentative(ish?) spoilers for Asunder... (highlight)

Apparently, it is possible to separate a spirit/demon from a mage. It just doesn't end up well for... well, anyone, really.

I don't know, I kinda have to side with Isabela on this: Justice is an idea, and it makes sence in a world of ideas. Bring it on board to the real world and... boom! Chantry explosion.

But yes, pretty much everything LobselVith8 wrote. That, and Anders' hate of blood magic + slavery... not really a place for him. Also, can you imagine how Justice would have reacted to Tevinter? Boy, that would have ended badly...

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

Chantry officials.

I have my doubts.

I'm not completely sure he was referring to the Chantry officials (though Leliana already said that everyone would suffer. It's logical that he wanted to point out that in the "everyone" were included the members of the Chantry) but in the end, it's obvious that he knew that normal people would suffer. If a war starts, it's obvious than innocents would be involved. That doesn't mean that he wanted to hurt normal people. I have many critics regards Anders, but I doubt he's a mage supremacist or that he wanted to hurt normal people.
Plus, as others said, he hates blood magic, on the same way Fenris does. He hates abominations (yeah, I'd have liked to say in one of the banter with Merrill that he's technically one, but nevermind. Fenris, Anders and sometimes Sebastian tend to be hypocrites).

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 02:35 .

[MisterJB]

I'm going to rectify something I said.

A system of government where supreme executive power is passed through blood alone is about as bad as one where power is determined by who can throw the biggest fireballs and kill the most rivals.
Honestly, I think the qunari's meritocracy is a better alternative to both. But only so far as leadership goes.

[Russalka]

Because the very universal Justice became a very biased Vengeance inside him.

Anders was mentally unstable from the start, why do people keep expecting for him to have acted rationally?

[MisterJB]

MissOuJ wrote...
That, and Anders' hate of blood magic + slavery... not really a place for him. Also, can you imagine how Justice would have reacted to Tevinter? Boy, that would have ended badly...

It's exactly the kind of place for him. Just like Garrus who hates criminals and rules went to Omega.
In Tevinter, Anders/Vengeance wouldn't even have to look for blood mages and slavers. Just turn a corner and there they are.
And, quite frankly, Tevinter could use a few dead Magisters. And by few I mean all. 

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

I'm going to rectify something I said.

A system of government where supreme executive power is passed through blood alone is about as bad as one where power is determined by who can throw the biggest fireballs and kill the most rivals.
Honestly, I think the qunari's meritocracy is a better alternative to both. But only so far as leadership goes.

Talking about how Qunari are promoted, yes, I agree with you.

[Kail Ashton]

He couldn't go to tevinter because who else would've completely ruined the plot to dragon age 2 while making the only relevant choice in the entire game without your input at all, c'mon guys! geez!

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...
That, and Anders' hate of blood magic + slavery... not really a place for him. Also, can you imagine how Justice would have reacted to Tevinter? Boy, that would have ended badly...

It's exactly the kind of place for him. Just like Garrus who hates criminals and rules went to Omega.
In Tevinter, Anders/Vengeance wouldn't even have to look for blood mages and slavers. Just turn a corner and there they are.
And, quite frankly, Tevinter could use a few dead Magisters. And by few I mean all. 

There's a female magister in a recent comic who doesn't seem bad, but I don't know if there's enough info to be sure about it.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
There's a female magister in a recent comic who doesn't seem bad, but I don't know if there's enough info to be sure about it.

She is honorable in so far as she seems to keep her word. But you don't become a magister by defending human rights.