156 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

hhh89,

True, people view Anders' symbiosis with Justice differently. I think Anders was trying to grasp what happened to his friend, although it seemed to me that Justice hadn't really changed, he was simply unaccustomed to the world through a living vessel (since Kristoff was already when he unexpectedly possessed him). I think that's part of what fascinates me about the merger between Anders and Justice; it's something unexpected for both of them. I'd be interested to see what the Rivaini seers would have to say about it, if any of the other seers had encountered an abomination like Anders before, or if he was unique.

And MissOJ, that idea prompts me to want Justice going to Tevinter.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
There's a female magister in a recent comic who doesn't seem bad, but I don't know if there's enough info to be sure about it.

She is honorable in so far as she seems to keep her word. But you don't become a magister by defending human rights.

You became magister by having great magical power, influence, and probably killing other candidates of magisters. Considering that most of them are (probably) not good person, I don't see the problem with that. Of course, I doubt that many magisters act the way I said, but I'm not a fan of generalization.

[Xilizhra]

Dozens of Codex entries detailing the exploits of magisters, the first hand report of a former slave, a meeting with a magister, seeing more magisters in the comics. From all accounts, Tevinter is the worst place on Thedas for everyone but the Magisters who have turned the land into their personal playground.
Those elves who have risen have done so by enslaving other elves and humans. An elf faces much hardship in Andrastian rule but s/he is free and, through hard work, can rise as high as any other peasant born human.
I don't hold any particular love for feudalism but it's not as bad as a system of government where power is determined by who can throw the biggest fireball.

Hah. Elves have risen far higher in Tevinter than we've ever, and I do mean ever, seen an elf in Andrastian society with the one exception of the Grey Wardens, and they stand outside society anyway. And given that we haven't seen Tevinter yet, I'll take everything with a grain of salt.
Although I'm very surprised you haven't said that elves being enslaved is their own fault too, so it's okay.

That doesn't mean that the system legalizes the slavery, and that a lot of people are slaves (in a larger number than the mages in Andrastian society). That system is wrong and no better than than the Circle system.

Maybe not, but that's not where we are right now. Just because Tevinter is an issue doesn't mean that the templars shouldn't fall, and in any case, I'd save Tevinter until after the qunari are dealt with.

She is honorable in so far as she seems to keep her word. But you don't become a magister by defending human rights.

Someone got to be archon by doing that. And even Fenris says he has no doubt that some magisters are good people, just that the system is dangerously tempting.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hhh89,

True, people view Anders' symbiosis with Justice differently. I think Anders was trying to grasp what happened to his friend, although it seemed to me that Justice hadn't really changed, he was simply unaccustomed to the world through a living vessel (since Kristoff was already when he unexpectedly possessed him). I think that's part of what fascinates me about the merger between Anders and Justice; it's something unexpected for both of them. I'd be interested to see what the Rivaini seers would have to say about it, if any of the other seers had encountered an abomination like Anders before, or if he was unique.

.

I do thing that Anders's case is probably uniquie, or at least very special. Not many abominations conserve their human mind. Flemeth could (possibly) be another one.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
You became magister by having great magical power, influence, and probably killing other candidates of magisters. Considering that most of them are (probably) not good person, I don't see the problem with that. Of course, I doubt that many magisters act the way I said, but I'm not a fan of generalization.

Fenris tells Hawke the story of the last magister who tried to ban slavery. He was quickly assassinated. He and Lambert also tells us that, in order to survive, no magister would refuse an advantage, regardless of the price.
That is the type of person you have to be in order to be a magister. I doubt there is a single "good" one.

[Teddie Sage]

Blood magic is common in Tevinter and he despises that. By the time he was around Kirkwall, he didn't considered himself an abomination because he had a spirit and not a demon inside his head. Although he was an hypocrite, my hypothesis is that Anders still wanted to free the mages from Kirkwall, which is the only reason he remained there.

Modifié par Teddie Sage, 23 octobre 2012 - 02:48 .

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
You became magister by having great magical power, influence, and probably killing other candidates of magisters. Considering that most of them are (probably) not good person, I don't see the problem with that. Of course, I doubt that many magisters act the way I said, but I'm not a fan of generalization.

Fenris tells Hawke the story of the last magister who tried to ban slavery. He was quickly assassinated. He and Lambert also tells us that, in order to survive, no magister would refuse an advantage, regardless of the price.
That is the type of person you have to be in order to be a magister. I doubt there is a single "good" one.

Again, Fenris says that he has no doubt that some of them are good.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dozens of Codex entries detailing the exploits of magisters, the first hand report of a former slave, a meeting with a magister, seeing more magisters in the comics. From all accounts, Tevinter is the worst place on Thedas for everyone but the Magisters who have turned the land into their personal playground.
Those elves who have risen have done so by enslaving other elves and humans. An elf faces much hardship in Andrastian rule but s/he is free and, through hard work, can rise as high as any other peasant born human.

Hah. Elves have risen far higher in Tevinter than we've ever, and I do mean ever, seen an elf in Andrastian society with the one exception of the Grey Wardens, and they stand outside society anyway. And given that we haven't seen Tevinter yet, I'll take everything with a grain of salt.

And they have done that by enslaving other elves and humans. Should I congratulate the slavers for rising high in life?

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 octobre 2012 - 02:49 .

[brushyourteeth]

Great question, MisterJB.

The reason that makes sense to me is this -- when Justice fused with Anders, the result was a guy with Anders' wounds and life concerns blended with an unyielding, unrealistic notion of what justice is and how to achieve it. If Fenris had joined with Justice, the two/one would probably be happily bouncing off to Tevinter to cast down the magisters and slavers. As it is, what Anders cares about is the plight of mages, so that becomes Justice's obsession.

I think this is shown by how Anders, when talking about Tevinter, sees it actually as a beacon of hope and not what you've described above (which is a pretty accurate and fair description). It may be horribly injust for most everyone, but the T.I. is a place where mages aren't locked up (because though they have a Circle system, it's lax enough as to be there just for giggles). Anders happily approves of Hawke advising mages to run away to the Tevinter Imperium so that they can be "free" (ironic, since the T.I. represents anything but freedom). His thinking is completely skewed. It's how he was able to kill a city block full of people - mages are by this point more important to him than others. The cause is king.

In that way, Anders is an abomination in the real-life, and not Dragon Age, sense. In him joining with Justice, neither of the two are what they were meant to be - but instead change and bring out the worst in each other. At best, they're a torture to each other, and at worst, they're doing the work of a monster. It's the tragic hero at its best.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 23 octobre 2012 - 02:50 .

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe not, but that's not where we are right now. Just because Tevinter is an issue doesn't mean that the templars shouldn't fall, and in any case, I'd save Tevinter until after the qunari are dealt with.

.

I responded to you because you said that you (or your Hawke) preferred the Imperial Chantry. I wanted to clarify that I don't think the Imperial Chantry's slavery system is better than the Andrastian's  Circle system.
I agree on Tevinter being useful on containing the qunari. Though we should consider that we don't know how much powerful the Tevinter is in comparison of Andrastian nations, and that a war with the qunari will weaken the Andrastian nations (which will possibly be already weakened by the mage-tempar war). The Tevinter might crush the south after the south defeated the qunari.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Again, Fenris says that he has no doubt that some of them are good.

Some of the mages. And he also says the system forces magisters to be evil to survive, that all must perform blood rituals, etc.
That's the kind of place Tevinter is. It either destroys you or corrupts you.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
You became magister by having great magical power, influence, and probably killing other candidates of magisters. Considering that most of them are (probably) not good person, I don't see the problem with that. Of course, I doubt that many magisters act the way I said, but I'm not a fan of generalization.

Fenris tells Hawke the story of the last magister who tried to ban slavery. He was quickly assassinated. He and Lambert also tells us that, in order to survive, no magister would refuse an advantage, regardless of the price.
That is the type of person you have to be in order to be a magister. I doubt there is a single "good" one.

Again, Fenris says that he has no doubt that some of them are good.

Well in this context, what makes a person good? Would a magister be good if they tried to reform society slowly(since quick reformation gets you assassinated), but in order to do so were forced to perform all the evils required of a magister, namely sacrificing folks and using slavery? 

[Xilizhra]

And they have done that by enslaving other elves and humans. Should I congratulate the slavers for rising high in life?

And you base this on... what, exactly? Do tailors typically own their own slaves? Is this some kind of requirement to being a Tevinter citizen? I'd think the magisters would try to keep a monopoly.

I think this is shown by how Anders, when talking about Tevinter, sees it actually as a beacon of hope and not what you've described above (which is a pretty accurate and fair description). It may be horribly injust for most everyone, but the T.I. is a place where mages aren't locked up (because though they have a Circle system, it's lax enough as to be there just for giggles). Anders happily approves of Hawke advising mages to run away to the Tevinter Imperium so that they can be "free" (ironic, since the T.I. represents anything but freedom). His thinking is completely skewed. It's how he was able to kill a city block full of people - mages are by this point more important to him than others. The cause is king.

Mages are more important to him than the enemy, which is what Elthina and her templars were.

I responded to you because you said that you (or your Hawke) preferred the Imperial Chantry. I wanted to clarify that I don't think the Imperial Chantry's slavery system is better than the Andrastian's Circle system.

The Tevinter cultural slavery system is much older than the Imperial Chantry. I just prefer that one's mage doctrine, and the way it says things.

[Rawgrim]

Because Anders can only be at 2 places at once, not 3.

[Xilizhra]

Some of the mages. And he also says the system forces magisters to be evil to survive, that all must perform blood rituals, etc.
That's the kind of place Tevinter is. It either destroys you or corrupts you.

Blood magic, not blood rituals. Blood magic isn't inherently evil. And you're remembering the line incorrectly:
Hawke: "You talk about the magisters as if they are all evil."
Fenris: "I have no doubt that some are good and noble men, strong enough to resist temptation."
He's referring to magisters, not just mages.

Well in this context, what makes a person good? Would a magister be good if they tried to reform society slowly(since quick reformation gets you assassinated), but in order to do so were forced to perform all the evils required of a magister, namely sacrificing folks and using slavery?

The same answer if the question was "would a king be good if they tried to reform society slowly, but in order to do so were forced to maintain a nondemocratic racist hegemony?"

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
You became magister by having great magical power, influence, and probably killing other candidates of magisters. Considering that most of them are (probably) not good person, I don't see the problem with that. Of course, I doubt that many magisters act the way I said, but I'm not a fan of generalization.

Fenris tells Hawke the story of the last magister who tried to ban slavery. He was quickly assassinated. He and Lambert also tells us that, in order to survive, no magister would refuse an advantage, regardless of the price.
That is the type of person you have to be in order to be a magister. I doubt there is a single "good" one.

I'm not said that a certain good magister has to abolish slavery. I think the Circle system in Kirkwall is not that different from slavery. That doesn't mean that I think that every templars and priests in Kirkwall are bad people.
Lambert never was a member of the Tevinter society, and Fenris couldn't have known every magister.

[MissOuJ]

MisterJB wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...
That, and Anders' hate of blood magic + slavery... not really a place for him. Also, can you imagine how Justice would have reacted to Tevinter? Boy, that would have ended badly...

It's exactly the kind of place for him. Just like Garrus who hates criminals and rules went to Omega.
In Tevinter, Anders/Vengeance wouldn't even have to look for blood mages and slavers. Just turn a corner and there they are.
And, quite frankly, Tevinter could use a few dead Magisters. And by few I mean all. 

Well, yeah, no arguments from me there. What I mean is that since Justice has become such internal part of Anders, Justice would probably see Tevinter and either force Anders internalize the Divine Chantry propaganda (ie. Since this is what Tevinter is like all mages - including Anders - deserve anything they get) which I don't think would sit well with Anders, or just plain drive them both insane by separating Anders with Justice (like in Rivalry path in DA2) and basically giving Anders something of a fantacy version of dissociative identity disorder. Neither answes seem particularly good to me from Anders' point of view, or from Thedas' point of view, either.

This is exactly how Justice comes to hate all Templars with pretty much no exceptions - who's to say Justice wouldn't end up thinking the exact same thing about mages if he saw Tevinter first?

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

And they have done that by enslaving other elves and humans. Should I congratulate the slavers for rising high in life?

And you base this on... what, exactly? Do tailors typically own their own slaves? Is this some kind of requirement to being a Tevinter citizen? I'd think the magisters would try to keep a monopoly.

I think this is shown by how Anders, when talking about Tevinter, sees it actually as a beacon of hope and not what you've described above (which is a pretty accurate and fair description). It may be horribly injust for most everyone, but the T.I. is a place where mages aren't locked up (because though they have a Circle system, it's lax enough as to be there just for giggles). Anders happily approves of Hawke advising mages to run away to the Tevinter Imperium so that they can be "free" (ironic, since the T.I. represents anything but freedom). His thinking is completely skewed. It's how he was able to kill a city block full of people - mages are by this point more important to him than others. The cause is king.

Mages are more important to him than the enemy, which is what Elthina and her templars were.

I responded to you because you said that you (or your Hawke) preferred the Imperial Chantry. I wanted to clarify that I don't think the Imperial Chantry's slavery system is better than the Andrastian's Circle system.

The Tevinter cultural slavery system is much older than the Imperial Chantry. I just prefer that one's mage doctrine, and the way it says things.

That's actually not impossible. For a time in the Roman Empire, citizenship could only be held by those who did not perform certain labors(particularly the manual type).

I personally don't view participation in the Tevinter system as having any higher degree of freedom than being a part of the Sith in Star Wars(during the Old Republic). You've always got someone above you, but on the bright side you've got power over the people below you.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
And you base this on... what, exactly? Do tailors typically own their own slaves? Is this some kind of requirement to being a Tevinter citizen? I'd think the magisters would try to keep a monopoly.

The tevinter elves we saw in any position of power wwere a slaver and an apprentice to a magister.
By rising higher you meant tailors? There are elven tailors in Andrastian society. They are just mostly restricted to the alienage. I remember a elven guardsman in kirkwall.

Mages are more important to him than the enemy, which is what Elthina and her templars were.

I tought the enemy was opression. If so, Tevinter is a much, much, much greater opressor than the Chantry.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 octobre 2012 - 02:57 .

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...


The Tevinter cultural slavery system is much older than the Imperial Chantry. I just prefer that one's mage doctrine, and the way it says things.

I don't like the mage's doctrine in Tevinter (if you're talking abotu the fact that mages rule society) because only mages can rule in Tevinter.

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 02:59 .

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think this is shown by how Anders, when talking about Tevinter, sees it actually as a beacon of hope and not what you've described above (which is a pretty accurate and fair description). It may be horribly injust for most everyone, but the T.I. is a place where mages aren't locked up (because though they have a Circle system, it's lax enough as to be there just for giggles). Anders happily approves of Hawke advising mages to run away to the Tevinter Imperium so that they can be "free" (ironic, since the T.I. represents anything but freedom). His thinking is completely skewed. It's how he was able to kill a city block full of people - mages are by this point more important to him than others. The cause is king.

Mages are more important to him than the enemy, which is what Elthina and her templars were.

Justice, in his right mind, would never approve the killing of someone just because they happened to be affiliated with an injustice.

And many more people were hurt than simply priests and Templars. Anders even admits in party banter that he deserves to die for the injustice of that explosion. Justice shouldn't commit hypocricies. Anders has made him something he was never meant to be.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Blood magic, not blood rituals. Blood magic isn't inherently evil. And you're remembering the line incorrectly:
Hawke: "You talk about the magisters as if they are all evil."
Fenris: "I have no doubt that some are good and noble men, strong enough to resist temptation."
He's referring to magisters, not just mages.

Here's the rest:
"But how many temptations do you wish to offer a man before he will give
in? Blood magic is everywhere in Tevinter. From the lowliest apprentice
up to the archon himself"
 
Which suggests all magisters eventually give in and use blood magic to compete which is supported by:
" Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.

Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.

Anders: But no magisters?

Fenris: Why must you go on about this? No magister would turn down an advantage over his rivals. If he did, he'd be dead.

" Which is a viewpoint that Lambert, a templar who was friends with the Black Divine himself supports.

Taking into account what we saw Hadriana do to fight Hawke and that a slave's life is worth nothing in Tevinter(bleeding children at parties for firework), I'm going to go ahead and say that it is a very safe conclusion that these blood rituals are not a slight cut in the wrist.

hhh89 wrote...
Lambert never was a member of the Tevinter society, and Fenris couldn't have known every magister.

Lambert
was a member of Tevinter society, in fact. He was stationed as a
templar in the Tevinter Circle and saw the mages regaining the power.
Fenris lived many years as the personal pet to a powerful magister. I'd image he knows how the politic game is played in Tevinter.

[MissOuJ]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dozens of Codex entries detailing the exploits of magisters, the first hand report of a former slave, a meeting with a magister, seeing more magisters in the comics. From all accounts, Tevinter is the worst place on Thedas for everyone but the Magisters who have turned the land into their personal playground.
Those elves who have risen have done so by enslaving other elves and humans. An elf faces much hardship in Andrastian rule but s/he is free and, through hard work, can rise as high as any other peasant born human.

Hah. Elves have risen far higher in Tevinter than we've ever, and I do mean ever, seen an elf in Andrastian society with the one exception of the Grey Wardens, and they stand outside society anyway. And given that we haven't seen Tevinter yet, I'll take everything with a grain of salt.

And they have done that by enslaving other elves and humans. Should I congratulate the slavers for rising high in life?

Well, we (as a society) seem to have little problem glorifying Ancient Greece, even though the money that funded its works of philosophy, art, literature and science came from slavery. Indeed, the basis of our system of democracy came from Greece - and it was only viable because slave labour freed the citizens (ie. priviledged white men) from manual work and gave them time to vote on matters such as should Socrates be sentenced to death or not.

Again, societal understanding of good and bad is a matter of perspective - and selective memory.

It's fair to assume the people of Tevinter and the people of Ferelden have very different moral codes, just like the Qunari (a culture which also practices a form of slavery) have different moral code than the Dalish. They all see these issues very differently.

I'm not saying slavery isn't disgusting, but I have to say that when it comes to human rights issues, none of the nations of Thedas are getting a Nobel Peace Prize anytime soon.

[Xilizhra]

The tevinter elves we saw in any position of power wwere a slaver and an apprentice to a magister.
By rising higher you meant tailors? There are elven tailors in Andrastian society. They are just mostly restricted to the alienage. I remember a elven guardsman in kirkwall.

She wasn't a slaver, she was a soldier of a magister who was the one actually doing the slaving. This is no different from those guards of Vaughan you mentioned (although amusingly, I actually do avoid killing her).

I don't like the mage's doctrine in Tevinter (if you're talking abotu the fact that mages rule society) because only mages can rule in Tevinter.

No worse than any other governmental system in Thedas. Only the slavery is a problem.

Justice, in his right mind, would never approve the killing of someone just because they happened to be affiliated with an injustice.

Elthina was performing the injustices. She's Meredith's superior and Meredith's actions are her responsibility. Via criminal negligence, she was directly responsible for the suffering of the city's mages, in addition to all those others hurt by the templars, such as that one woman Ser Mettin was going to kill for briefly sheltering her cousin.

And many more people were hurt than simply priests and Templars. Anders even admits in party banter that he deserves to die for the injustice of that explosion. Justice shouldn't commit hypocricies. Anders has made him something he was never meant to be.

You must have rivaled him. I did not.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

And many more people were hurt than simply priests and Templars. Anders even admits in party banter that he deserves to die for the injustice of that explosion. Justice shouldn't commit hypocricies. Anders has made him something he was never meant to be.

You must have rivaled him. I did not.

I've never rivaled Anders. It was in party banter. With either Aveline or Isabela, I believe.