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[Xilizhra]

Taking into account what we saw Hadriana do to fight Hawke and that a slave's life is worth nothing in Tevinter(bleeding children at parties for firework), I'm going to go ahead and say that it is a very safe conclusion that these blood rituals are not a slight cut in the wrist.

It's not a safe conclusion at all to say that all magisters will kill off their own slaves in this manner. We don't know nearly enough about how the society works, aside from nonrepresentative samples.

I've never rivaled Anders. It was in party banter. With either Aveline or Isabela, I believe.

That's different. He says that the dead would deserve justice, but doesn't mention what it would be. In any case, we didn't see any innocents die.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 23 octobre 2012 - 03:15 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
She wasn't a slaver, she was a soldier of a magister who was the one actually doing the slaving. This is no different from those guards of Vaughan you mentioned (although amusingly, I actually do avoid killing her).

She called the elves "cattle". She is a slaver.

No worse than any other governmental system in Thedas. Only the slavery is a problem.

Everything about Tevinter is a problem. From the lowliest apprentice to the highest archon.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

I've never rivaled Anders. It was in party banter. With either Aveline or Isabela, I believe.

That's different. He says that the dead would deserve justice, but doesn't mention what it would be. In any case, we didn't see any innocents die.

He admits that his actions were injust. Period. Just period.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
It's not a safe conclusion at all to say that all magisters will kill off their own slaves in this manner. We don't know nearly enough about how the society works, aside from nonrepresentative samples.

So, basically, everything and everyone who has ever had the sligthest amount of contact with Tevinter claims that blood magic is everywhere, that magisters will do anything to get power but you claim it isn't so.

That's different. He says that the dead would deserve justice, but doesn't mention what it would be. In any case, we didn't see any innocents die.

Other than Elthina and her priests who were, in fact, quite innocent.

[Xilizhra]

She called the elves "cattle". She is a slaver.

Working for one. Not one personally. And I'm going to doubt that line, as I've never heard it.

Everything about Tevinter is a problem. From the lowliest apprentice to the highest archon.

Hah, and you call me overzealous with my templar solutions.

He admits that his actions were injust. Period. Just period.

Never as such.

[Xilizhra]

So, basically, everything and everyone who has ever had the sligthest amount of contact with Tevinter claims that blood magic is everywhere, that magisters will do anything to get power but you claim it isn't so.

There are many ways to use blood magic.

Other than Elthina and her priests who were, in fact, quite innocent.

Elthina was about as innocent as Gaddafi. And everyone else we saw was a templar.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

Taking into account what we saw Hadriana do to fight Hawke and that a slave's life is worth nothing in Tevinter(bleeding children at parties for firework), I'm going to go ahead and say that it is a very safe conclusion that these blood rituals are not a slight cut in the wrist.

It's not a safe conclusion at all to say that all magisters will kill off their own slaves in this manner. We don't know nearly enough about how the society works, aside from nonrepresentative samples.

On the contrary, since this is basically a work of graphic literature we're talking about, I'd say the samples are pretty well intended to be representative.

It seems that this behavior is the rule and not the exception.

That isn't to say that mages are evil - but that the Tevinter Imperium is corrupt and guilty of atrocities that make the Chantry look like fresh laundry.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Blood magic, not blood rituals. Blood magic isn't inherently evil. And you're remembering the line incorrectly:
Hawke: "You talk about the magisters as if they are all evil."
Fenris: "I have no doubt that some are good and noble men, strong enough to resist temptation."
He's referring to magisters, not just mages.

Here's the rest:
"But how many temptations do you wish to offer a man before he will give
in? Blood magic is everywhere in Tevinter. From the lowliest apprentice
up to the archon himself"
 
Which suggests all magisters eventually give in and use blood magic to compete which is supported by:
" Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.

Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.

Anders: But no magisters?

Fenris: Why must you go on about this? No magister would turn down an advantage over his rivals. If he did, he'd be dead.

" Which is a viewpoint that Lambert, a templar who was friends with the Black Divine himself supports.

Taking into account what we saw Hadriana do to fight Hawke and that a slave's life is worth nothing in Tevinter(bleeding children at parties for firework), I'm going to go ahead and say that it is a very safe conclusion that these blood rituals are not a slight cut in the wrist.

hhh89 wrote...
Lambert never was a member of the Tevinter society, and Fenris couldn't have known every magister.

Lambert
was a member of Tevinter society, in fact. He was stationed as a
templar in the Tevinter Circle and saw the mages regaining the power.
Fenris lived many years as the personal pet to a powerful magister. I'd image he knows how the politic game is played in Tevinter.

So yeah Tevinter is a ****ty place. why do we care again?

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

He admits that his actions were injust. Period. Just period.

Never as such.

Oh, Xilizhra! Are you actually denying that in-game stuff happened in-game? I'm seriously disappointed, because I so love having intelligent debate with you. It's plain fact. Look it up.

[Xilizhra]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Taking into account what we saw Hadriana do to fight Hawke and that a slave's life is worth nothing in Tevinter(bleeding children at parties for firework), I'm going to go ahead and say that it is a very safe conclusion that these blood rituals are not a slight cut in the wrist.

It's not a safe conclusion at all to say that all magisters will kill off their own slaves in this manner. We don't know nearly enough about how the society works, aside from nonrepresentative samples.

On the contrary, since this is basically a work of graphic literature we're talking about, I'd say the samples are pretty well intended to be representative.

It seems that this behavior is the rule and not the exception.

That isn't to say that mages are evil - but that the Tevinter Imperium is corrupt and guilty of atrocities that make the Chantry look like fresh laundry.

Hardly. All this represents is roving, active slavers. When we get that magister companion in DA3, then I'll begin to possibly trust in a more complete picture. And the Chantry's atrocities are far too numerous to dismiss by comparison with another (far older, with far more time to commit atrocities) society.

Oh, Xilizhra! Are you actually denying that in-game stuff happened
in-game? I'm seriously disappointed, because I so love having
intelligent debate with you. It's plain fact. Look it up.

No, he says that the dead deserve justice, not that his actions are unjust. Either that, or the just action would require unjust action as part of the package, but the unjust action would be less unjust than doing nothing.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 23 octobre 2012 - 03:23 .

[brushyourteeth]

DKJaigen wrote...

So yeah Tevinter is a ****ty place. why do we care again?

You don't.

We do.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Taking into account what we saw Hadriana do to fight Hawke and that a slave's life is worth nothing in Tevinter(bleeding children at parties for firework), I'm going to go ahead and say that it is a very safe conclusion that these blood rituals are not a slight cut in the wrist.

It's not a safe conclusion at all to say that all magisters will kill off their own slaves in this manner. We don't know nearly enough about how the society works, aside from nonrepresentative samples.

On the contrary, since this is basically a work of graphic literature we're talking about, I'd say the samples are pretty well intended to be representative.

It seems that this behavior is the rule and not the exception.

That isn't to say that mages are evil - but that the Tevinter Imperium is corrupt and guilty of atrocities that make the Chantry look like fresh laundry.

Hardly. All this represents is roving, active slavers. When we get that magister companion in DA3, then I'll begin to possibly trust in a more complete picture. And the Chantry's atrocities are far too numerous to dismiss by comparison with another (far older, with far more time to commit atrocities) society.

Oh, Xilizhra! Are you actually denying that in-game stuff happened
in-game? I'm seriously disappointed, because I so love having
intelligent debate with you. It's plain fact. Look it up.

No, he says that the dead deserve justice, not that his actions are unjust. Either that, or the just action would require unjust action as part of the package, but the unjust action would be less unjust than doing nothing.

If the victims deserve justice, they were the victims of injustice. Justice performing injustice is a serious tragedy, and should make us all shake our heads at the result.

And the writers' inclusion of Fenris and Isabela's experiences are, I suppose, meant to account for nothing?

If we get a magister companion (like the one described in the leak) I imagine that person will be the exception, and not the rule (which appears to be quite ugly). The writers have already painted a general picture of Tevinter -- they'll want to tell the story of something new and unusual.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 23 octobre 2012 - 03:27 .

[DKJaigen]

brushyourteeth wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

So yeah Tevinter is a ****ty place. why do we care again?

You don't.

We do.

so why do you care? no point arguing about a country we have not even seen before.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 23 octobre 2012 - 03:28 .

[Xilizhra]

If the victims deserve justice, they were the victims of injustice. Justice performing injustice is a serious tragedy, and should make us all shake our heads at the result.

In this case, injustice was inevitable, and to do nothing would be worse. It's just Justice getting caught up in a real-world moral conundrum. A learning experience of a sort.

If we get a magister companion (like the one described in the leak) I imagine that person will be the exception, and not the rule (which appears to be quite ugly). The writers have already painted a general picture of Tevinter -- they'll want to tell the story of something new and unusual.

As a rule, I look at these stories via a Watsonian perspective, not a Doylist one. Said magister might be different, and it might be interesting, but I'm going to not condemn the whole society until I actually see the society.

[DKJaigen]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Taking into account what we saw Hadriana do to fight Hawke and that a slave's life is worth nothing in Tevinter(bleeding children at parties for firework), I'm going to go ahead and say that it is a very safe conclusion that these blood rituals are not a slight cut in the wrist.

It's not a safe conclusion at all to say that all magisters will kill off their own slaves in this manner. We don't know nearly enough about how the society works, aside from nonrepresentative samples.

On the contrary, since this is basically a work of graphic literature we're talking about, I'd say the samples are pretty well intended to be representative.

It seems that this behavior is the rule and not the exception.

That isn't to say that mages are evil - but that the Tevinter Imperium is corrupt and guilty of atrocities that make the Chantry look like fresh laundry.

Hardly. All this represents is roving, active slavers. When we get that magister companion in DA3, then I'll begin to possibly trust in a more complete picture. And the Chantry's atrocities are far too numerous to dismiss by comparison with another (far older, with far more time to commit atrocities) society.

Oh, Xilizhra! Are you actually denying that in-game stuff happened
in-game? I'm seriously disappointed, because I so love having
intelligent debate with you. It's plain fact. Look it up.

No, he says that the dead deserve justice, not that his actions are unjust. Either that, or the just action would require unjust action as part of the package, but the unjust action would be less unjust than doing nothing.

If the victims deserve justice, they were the victims of injustice. Justice performing injustice is a serious tragedy, and should make us all shake our heads at the result.

And the writers' inclusion of Fenris and Isabela's experiences are, I suppose, meant to account for nothing?

If we get a magister companion (like the one described in the leak) I imagine that person will be the exception, and not the rule (which appears to be quite ugly). The writers have already painted a general picture of Tevinter -- they'll want to tell the story of something new and unusual.

i find it hillarious that the chantry and its sheeple got its ass kicked by justice. I would call it epic justice as the self righterouss little ****s finally got what they deserve

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Working for one. Not one personally. And I'm going to doubt that line, as I've never heard it.

Then boot up the game and call her out on being an elf.
"So I should feel kinship for these sheep?"
She is a slaver.

Hah, and you call me overzealous with my templar solutions.

Because the templars are, in general, honest men willing to do what it takes to protect the world. Tevinter society is a dark beast ruled by egomaniacal tyrants who use the lands and its people as its own playground and care for nothing but themselves.
They're basically the Sith.

[Xilizhra]

Then boot up the game and call her out on being an elf.
"So I should feel kinship for these sheep?"
She is a slaver.

Prove that she actually owns slaves.

Because the templars are, in general, honest men willing to do what it takes to protect the world. Tevinter society is a dark beast ruled by egomaniacal tyrants who use the lands and its people as its own playground and care for nothing but themselves.

The magisters see themselves the same way you see the templars. Many see neither group as anything worthwhile. As of now, my war is with the templars; it's not a war I started, but it's one I will finish.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Long story short: Anders struck back against the injustice that he's personally experienced. Tevinter is a bad place, but it has nothing to do with Anders.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

If the victims deserve justice, they were the victims of injustice. Justice performing injustice is a serious tragedy, and should make us all shake our heads at the result.

In this case, injustice was inevitable, and to do nothing would be worse. It's just Justice getting caught up in a real-world moral conundrum. A learning experience of a sort.

Inexcusable. Again, mage lives are more important than others' - which are expendable in order to help mages, while the establishment is blamed for making the same decision in reverse. Before Anders' attack, you could have argued that the Templars were worse at it. Now there is blood on both hands. Great start to the mage rebellion, eh?

If we get a magister companion (like the one described in the leak) I imagine that person will be the exception, and not the rule (which appears to be quite ugly). The writers have already painted a general picture of Tevinter -- they'll want to tell the story of something new and unusual.

As a rule, I look at these stories via a Watsonian perspective, not a Doylist one. Said magister might be different, and it might be interesting, but I'm going to not condemn the whole society until I actually see the society.

So we have every evidence to support that the Tevinter Imperium is based on a corrupt and inhumane set of ideals, yet we believe the best of them? Meanwhile, the Chantry is reviled for doing its very best and failing.

Fantastic.

Xilizhra, I know you love mages. I do too. That doesn't mean we have to believe in their supremacy at the cost of everything that's good. That's foolishness.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
There are many ways to use blood magic.

And the tevinters use the blood of slaves to fuel all of those.

Elthina was about as innocent as Gaddafi. And everyone else we saw was a templar.

Only in the depraved little world of Anders where only the lives of mages matter and a woman trying to avoid a war while contending with two sides who hold far more armed forces than she does is a criminal.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then boot up the game and call her out on being an elf.
"So I should feel kinship for these sheep?"
She is a slaver.

Prove that she actually owns slaves.

She works for them. By that same standard you've excused the death of every priest of the Kirkwall Chantry.

[Xilizhra]

Inexcusable. Again, mage lives are more important than others' - which are expendable in order to help mages, while the establishment is blamed for making the same decision in reverse. Before Anders' attack, you could have argued that the Templars were worse at it. Now there is blood on both hands. Great start to the mage rebellion, eh?

The templars still are much, much worse about it. And none of the people in the Chantry were innocent. If anyone else died in the process, yes, that's bad, but also inevitable in any war, regardless of how necessary the war is.

So we have every evidence to support that the Tevinter Imperium is based on a corrupt and inhumane set of ideals, yet we believe the best of them? Meanwhile, the Chantry is reviled for doing its very best and failing.

I've so far screwed over one magister, killed two others, and never done a damned thing to harm the Chantry itself. Remember that.
And we know the Chantry, much better than we know Tevinter. I'm not advocating believing the best of them, I'm just not making a judgment on them at this time.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Prove that she actually owns slaves.

Because you need to own slaves to be a slaver? Capturing people to sell is not slavery anymore?
Honestly, you apply a ridiculous double standard. Had it been a human and wasn't Tevinter a land ruled by magisters, you wouldn't be silenced about it.

The magisters see themselves the same way you see the templars. Many see neither group as anything worthwhile. As of now, my war is with the templars; it's not a war I started, but it's one I will finish.

No, they don't. The magisters don't give two toughts to morality. They only care about themselves.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 octobre 2012 - 03:39 .

[Xilizhra]

Only in the depraved little world of Anders where only the lives of mages matter and a woman trying to avoid a war while contending with two sides who hold far more armed forces than she does is a criminal.

She should have informed Leliana if Meredith was that out of control, and reassured Orsino that the Divine's forces would be coming to remove her. She didn't. She approved of Meredith's actions by her lack of such.

She works for them. By that same standard you've excused the death of every priest of the Kirkwall Chantry.

All we saw were templars.

[The Hierophant]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
There are many ways to use blood magic.

And the tevinters use the blood of slaves to fuel all of those.

Elthina was about as innocent as Gaddafi. And everyone else we saw was a templar.

Only in the depraved little world of Anders where only the lives of mages matter and a woman trying to avoid a war while contending with two sides who hold far more armed forces than she does is a criminal.

Before Elthina was killed i remember that she vetoed Meredith's calls for the RoA, and that's probably the reason Anders targeted her as to remove someone capable reasoning(Kirkwall lacked alot of it) from the table.