156 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I'm taking your word on the Antiva thing, though I honestly can say I don't know a thing about it. Even if all those things are true (and I could talk about the elf situation, but it would derail everything - suffice it to say I think Flemeth has it right) - even if all those things about the Chantry are true, my point still stands: that it's nothing compared to the Tevinter Imperium.

The Chantry isn't a whole nation with thousands of years of history and power behind it. It's far smaller and weaker than Tevinter; of course it won't have the same history of atrocity. Look at Orlais for more of that, or many other Andrastian nations.

Point proven. The sour smell of Tevinter traditions.

That particular one in that particular time/place that Danarius was in. I find some Tevinter traditions far more respectable than Andrastian ones.

There is no legal slavery in any lands under Andrastian rule and this you have the Chantry to thank for.
There is social inequality between humans and elves but the elves have done more than their fair share to contribute to the climate of hostilities.

Antiva is full of slavery; it's quite explicitly mentioned. Orlais is only not a slave nation based on a few pitiful technicalities with its "servants." And yep, it's the elves' own fault again, of course. You must be lamenting that there's no Cerberus option here.

Obviously, any spell that only requires the blood of a child can't be
that impressive to the leaders of an empire that bled hundreds of slaves
to fuel an invasion into the Black City.

I think you underestimate blood magic.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:03 .

[The Hierophant]

brushyourteeth wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The magisters lie and they know it. Explain to me how bleeding little boys at parties serves the greater good.

Comparable to a weapons check. Ensuring that one's powers are still active in case of, say, qunari attack (and we know Danarius has been on Seheron's front lines), in addition to a show of power to hopefully reduce the inclination of other magisters to try to unseat oneself and institute their clearly inferior policies.

... this is revolting.

Lol spoken like a true politician.

Not sure what this means, or who it's directed to.

Directed towards Xilizhra's post before the clarification.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:04 .

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because the only reason of templar's actions in Kirkwall was because they were under Meredith's command. It's not like the Circle of Kirkwall was one of the worst for centuries, and templars held enough power to assassinate a Viscount and control another.
Templars and mages shown their worst side in Kirkwall, and Meredith isn't completely responsible for this. In Act 2 Ser Otto was more extremist than Meredith. Mages went on blood magic/abomination mode almost every time.

Actually, David Gaider said that Kirkwall's mages weren't all that bad, Hawke just ran into a disproportionate amount of blood mages. Meredith was very far from the only problem, but her removal could have been a step to greater reform there. Especially for those who fetishize Justinia.

.

I'm not discussing that there were good mages in Kirkwall. But what we saw were almost every time blood mages (who a lot of time became abominations), so there's a large aumont of blood mages in Kirkwall. I know that this isn't what they wanted to show, but this is what Kirkwall is. And regardless, Orsino aided or hide Quentin. That alone made me unable to trust him, as I can't trust Meredith on leading the templars in Kirkwall. It was actually a lot disappointing, because I already knew that Meredith was an extemist (though she wasn't  insane, since she was again the full Tranquilization), but became insane and paranoid thanks to the lyrium sword. I wouldn't trust her on leading the Circle regardless, but I though Orsino was a good man. Not that it mattered much with my choice, since the only reason that made me able to pick a side was that the Circle wasn' involved, so I couldn't support the templars. But I hate how the groups are portrayed in DA2.
Just to inform you, I don't care much of Elthina. Is just that I don't think she's  as bad as other people think.

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...

Only if the mages turn them into such like what Anders did.

Not quite, before the Templars split from the chantry, the Templars were used for whatever the chantry saw fit, in wars where mages were not relevant. For example, the slaughter of the Dalish. Or, the war against the Dwarves in one of the DAO endings if you allow Burkel to set up a chantry. The Templars were a standing army designed to enforce the chantry's power. Now they have split from the chantry, it will be interesting to see what kind of organization they become.

[Xilizhra]

I'm not discussing that there were good mages in Kirkwall. But what we saw were almost every time blood mages (who a lot of time became abominations), so there's a large aumont of blood mages in Kirkwall. I know that this isn't what they wanted to show, but this is what Kirkwall is. And regardless, Orsino aided or hide Quentin. That alone made me unable to trust him, as I can't trust Meredith on leading the templars in Kirkwall. It was actually a lot disappointing, because I already knew that Meredith was an extemist (though she wasn't insane, since she was again the full Tranquilization), but became insane and paranoid thanks to the lyrium sword. I wouldn't trust her on leading the Circle regardless, but I though Orsino was a good man. Not that it mattered much with my choice, since the only reason that made me able to pick a side was that the Circle wasn' involved, so I couldn't support the templars. But I hate how the groups are portrayed in DA2.
Just to inform you, I don't care much of Elthina. Is just that I don't think she's as bad as other people think.

Orsino was a good man, so far as we can tell. Certainly better than Elthina.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Antiva is full of slavery; it's quite explicitly mentioned. Orlais is only not a slave nation based on a few pitiful technicalities with its "servants."

Beyond a mention of antivan slavers who could sell their wares in the Imperium? Where?

According to Isabela, Orlais hangs slavers. Servants, as in, elves who are paid, free to leave the service of their patron and estimated as valuable rarities according to Leliana? Do you really think that's slavery?

And yep, it's the elves' own fault again, of course.

There are racist humans and racist elves and both sides have done their fair share to antagonize each other.

I think you underestimate blood magic.

I think you are ridiculously biased in favor of underdogs, whether it be the elves or the mages. Even when they aren't underdogs like the Tevinters.

[brushyourteeth]

The Hierophant wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The magisters lie and they know it. Explain to me how bleeding little boys at parties serves the greater good.

Comparable to a weapons check. Ensuring that one's powers are still active in case of, say, qunari attack (and we know Danarius has been on Seheron's front lines), in addition to a show of power to hopefully reduce the inclination of other magisters to try to unseat oneself and institute their clearly inferior policies.

... this is revolting.

Lol spoken like a true politician.

Not sure what this means, or who it's directed to.

Directed towards Xilizhra's post before the clarification.

Thanks, and agreed. 

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...


There is no legal slavery in any lands under Andrastian rule and this you have the Chantry to thank for.
There is social inequality between humans and elves but the elves have done more than their fair share to contribute to the climate of hostilities.

And that justifies their treatment of second-class citizen, or worse in certain places? This is a thing I really want to have the choice to change (not necessarily in the next game)

[MisterJB]

DuskWarden wrote...
Not quite, before the Templars split from the chantry, the Templars were used for whatever the chantry saw fit, in wars where mages were not relevant. For example, the slaughter of the Dalish. Or, the war against the Dwarves in one of the DAO endings if you allow Burkel to set up a chantry. The Templars were a standing army designed to enforce the chantry's power. Now they have split from the chantry, it will be interesting to see what kind of organization they become.

The elves sacked the heart of the Chantry and the dwarves were attacking andrastians without provocation. Altough no templars were actualy sent to Orzammar, best I can remember.
Yes, templars are the Chantry's military force but, from what I've seen, they were never used in matters that didn't threaten the faith or the lives of innocents. No templars marched with Orlais's armies in their invasions, for instance.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...


Orsino was a good man, so far as we can tell. Certainly better than Elthina.

Your opinion. I wouldn't refer to all the "Big Four" in Kirkwall as good. . His help to Quentin lead to innocent's deaths, for an idioti project made by an insane man.

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:14 .

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
And that justifies their treatment of second-class citizen, or worse in certain places? This is a thing I really want to have the choice to change (not necessarily in the next game)

No but I take issue when elves are portrayed as if they can do no wrong.

[Xilizhra]

Beyond a mention of antivan slavers who could sell their wares in the Imperium? Where?

Antivan slavers who sell in Antiva. Remember how Zevran was outright purchased?

According to Isabela, Orlais hangs slavers. Servants, as in, elves who are paid, free to leave the service of their patron and estimated as valuable rarities according to Leliana? Do you really think that's slavery?

Leliana was being quite racist herself in that description, and admitted to her error. And if they were valued rarities, I hardly imagine that they'd be so free to leave, especially as they'd likely have absolutely nowhere to go. The chains are invisible but no less strong.

I think you are ridiculously biased in favor of underdogs, whether it be the elves or the mages. Even when they aren't underdogs like the Tevinters.

And I think you're a vile mundane/human supremacist across all Bioware franchises. I presume we'll agree to disagree on that point.

[Palipride47]

MisterJB wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
Not quite, before the Templars split from the chantry, the Templars were used for whatever the chantry saw fit, in wars where mages were not relevant. For example, the slaughter of the Dalish. Or, the war against the Dwarves in one of the DAO endings if you allow Burkel to set up a chantry. The Templars were a standing army designed to enforce the chantry's power. Now they have split from the chantry, it will be interesting to see what kind of organization they become.

The elves sacked the heart of the Chantry and the dwarves were attacking andrastians without provocation. Altough no templars were actualy sent to Orzammar, best I can remember.
Yes, templars are the Chantry's military force but, from what I've seen, they were never used in matters that didn't threaten the faith or the lives of innocents. No templars marched with Orlais's armies in their invasions, for instance.

HAHAHAHHAA 

Did you forget the Exalted Marches and the purging by the swords of human Qun converts who didn't want to convert back?

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
And that justifies their treatment of second-class citizen, or worse in certain places? This is a thing I really want to have the choice to change (not necessarily in the next game)

No but I take issue when elves are portrayed as if they can do no wrong.

I never said that. I don't think the elves were completely innocent at the time of the Dales's fall. Not do I think that this justified what the Chantry did to the elves.

[The Hierophant]

Palipride47 wrote...
HAHAHAHHAA 

Did you forget the Exalted Marches and the purging by the swords of human Qun converts who didn't want to convert back?

Those poor Rivaini never stood a chance.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Antivan slavers who sell in Antiva. Remember how Zevran was outright purchased?

Social inequalities who force people into situations they'd rather avoid. It sucks but it is not slavery.

Leliana was being quite racist herself in that description, and admitted to her error. And if they were valued rarities, I hardly imagine that they'd be so free to leave, especially as they'd likely have absolutely nowhere to go. The chains are invisible but no less strong.

I can drop out of school if I want but if I do so, will I have a bright future? Probrably not.
It's called society. It sucks but it's not slavery.

And I think you're a vile mundane/human supremacist across all Bioware
franchises. I presume we'll agree to disagree on that point.

Well, I think you are an elven/ mage supremacist who lives in her own little world so, we're even.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
I never said that. I don't think the elves were completely innocent at the time of the Dales's fall. Not do I think that this justified what the Chantry did to the elves.

It wasn't meant for you. Xilizhra thinks the elves are guiltless tough.

[Palipride47]

The Hierophant wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...
HAHAHAHHAA 

Did you forget the Exalted Marches and the purging by the swords of human Qun converts who didn't want to convert back?

Those poor Rivaini never stood a chance.

Get slaughtered by either Qunari or Chantry.....

Hell, at that point, I'll go find those witches and worship those.....

[MisterJB]

Palipride47 wrote...
Did you forget the Exalted Marches and the purging by the swords of human Qun converts who didn't want to convert back?

The Exalted MArches? Against Tevinter and the Qunari, two tyranicall empires hellbent on world domination and the Dales who cut a bloody path through Orlais and sacked Val-Royeaux? It seems to me they were entirely justified even if they did went too far in the matter of the Dales.

I won't defend the slaugther of qunari converts. It doesn't mean the entire organization is rotten.

[Xilizhra]

Social inequalities who force people into situations they'd rather avoid. It sucks but it is not slavery.

Lulz.

I can drop out of school if I want but if I do so, will I have a bright future? Probrably not.
It's called society. It sucks but it's not slavery.

Then all of society will need to be reformed, including Tevinter.

Well, I think you are an elven/ mage supremacist who lives in her own little world so, we're even.

And yet it was my world that came true in ME3. Enjoy stewing over the imminence of such possibilities in DA3.

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
Not quite, before the Templars split from the chantry, the Templars were used for whatever the chantry saw fit, in wars where mages were not relevant. For example, the slaughter of the Dalish. Or, the war against the Dwarves in one of the DAO endings if you allow Burkel to set up a chantry. The Templars were a standing army designed to enforce the chantry's power. Now they have split from the chantry, it will be interesting to see what kind of organization they become.

The elves sacked the heart of the Chantry and the dwarves were attacking andrastians without provocation. Altough no templars were actualy sent to Orzammar, best I can remember.
Yes, templars are the Chantry's military force but, from what I've seen, they were never used in matters that didn't threaten the faith or the lives of innocents. No templars marched with Orlais's armies in their invasions, for instance.

I wasn't apportioning blame in either of those two incidents, merely stating that the Templars were used as soldiers in conflicts which weren't related to magic.

That said, the dwarves didn't initially attack the Andrastian converts. They merely restricted their rights in a similar, albeit less harsh, manner to mages. Burkel was killed later, but the dwarves weren't indiscriminately killing people. It was an accident, and his death certainly wouldn't justify an Exalted March.

"They quickly attract a great deal of anger from more conservative quarters, and before long the Assembly severely restricts the Andrastians' rights. Brother Burkel resists, and is slain while being arrested during a peaceful demonstration in the Commons. The Assembly claims this was an accident, but news of the resulting riots reach the Chantry on the surface, where the Divine even contemplates a new Exalted March."

Modifié par DuskWarden, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:23 .

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
I never said that. I don't think the elves were completely innocent at the time of the Dales's fall. Not do I think that this justified what the Chantry did to the elves.

It wasn't meant for you. Xilizhra thinks the elves are guiltless tough.

I can't do that for any groups.I think that every faction and groups have flaws and fall in the gray area. The same I could say for the ME IP. The exceptions are mages and templars in DA2, and Cerberus in ME3.
In the DA world I have problems of relating myself to a certain group or organization, because some of their flaws render me unable to fully support it. The only one which flaws didn't block me is the Grey Wardens.

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:24 .

[Palipride47]

MisterJB wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...
Did you forget the Exalted Marches and the purging by the swords of human Qun converts who didn't want to convert back?

The Exalted MArches? Against Tevinter and the Qunari, two tyranicall empires hellbent on world domination and the Dales who cut a bloody path through Orlais and sacked Val-Royeaux? It seems to me they were entirely justified even if they did went too far in the matter of the Dales.

I won't defend the slaugther of qunari converts. It doesn't mean the entire organization is rotten.

You.....don't see the irony of that remark? 

Xilizhra wrote...
Antivan slavers who sell in Antiva. Remember how Zevran was outright purchased?


MisterJB wrote...
Social inequalities who force people into situations they'd rather avoid. It sucks but it is not slavery.

Xilizhra wrote...
Leliana was being quite racist herself in that description, and admitted to her error. And if they were valued rarities, I hardly imagine that they'd be so free to leave, especially as they'd likely have absolutely nowhere to go. The chains are invisible but no less strong.


MisterJB wrote...
I can drop out of school if I want but if I do so, will I have a bright future? Probrably not.
It's called society. It sucks but it's not slavery.

It seriously feels like you are stating that if it doesn't have a SLAVERY sign flashing and blinking over its head, it isn't slavery. 

Modifié par Palipride47, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:26 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Then all of society will need to be reformed, including Tevinter.

Building an utopia. Boy, how come no one ever tried that before?

And yet it was my world that came true in ME3. Enjoy stewing over the imminence of such possibilities in DA3.

it's funny how you think you can make me upset.

[Xilizhra]

It seriously feels like you are stating that if it doesn't have a SLAVERY sign flashing and blinking over its head, it isn't slavery.

Hint: he supports kidnapping children to force enhanced psychic powers on them through a regimen of brutal violence and Pavlovian conditioning for killing.