156 réponses à ce sujet

[Palipride47]

hhh89 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
I never said that. I don't think the elves were completely innocent at the time of the Dales's fall. Not do I think that this justified what the Chantry did to the elves.

It wasn't meant for you. Xilizhra thinks the elves are guiltless tough.

I can't do that for any groups.I think that every faction and groups have flaws and fall in the gray area. The same I could say for the ME IP. The exceptions are mages and templars in DA2, and Cerberus in ME3.
In the DA world I have problems of relating myself to a certain group or organization, because some of their flaws render me unable to fully support it. The only one which flaws didn't block me is the Grey Wardens.

Huh, even the Grey Wardens are "in the grey" (hee) for me. But that is why I play Dragon Age instead of, like
Fable 

The Thedosian universe has 50 Shades of Grey (not the book kind , the other kind)

[MisterJB]

Palipride47 wrote...
You.....don't see the irony of that remark?

There is no irony. The Chantry has made mistakes but it is, ultimately, an organization created for good and it has created a more moral society.
Tevinter is a  morally bankarupt society where mages are encouraged to abuse those with less power just because it's fun.

It seriously feels like you are stating that if it doesn't have a SLAVERY sign flashing and blinking over its head, it isn't slavery. 

I'm being realistic. Social inequalities have always existed and will always exist. Alistair didn't want to become a templar but he also didn't have many choices in life.
I think it's ridiculous to compare this to the actual slaves of Tevinter who are abused in every way possible and imaginable.

[The Elder King]

I don't like the direction in which we're going (Cerberus thread) which is both off-topic and off-forum.

[The Elder King]

Palipride47 wrote...



Huh, even the Grey Wardens are "in the grey" (hee) for me. But that is why I play Dragon Age instead of, like
Fable 

The Thedosian universe has 50 Shades of Grey (not the book kind , the other kind)

I agree on that. I said that even them has flaws. Their flaws aren't fundamental enough to me to prevent siding with them.

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:35 .

[Palipride47]

MisterJB wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...
You.....don't see the irony of that remark?

There is no irony. The Chantry has made mistakes but it is, ultimately, an organization created for good and it has created a more moral society.
Tevinter is a  morally bankarupt society where mages are encouraged to abuse those with less power just because it's fun.

The Qun was developed to combat immorality that Koslun saw in his society (immorality which he defined as social inequality)
The cult of the Maker (later, the Chantry) was developed to combat the immorality of the magisters (specifically against the barbarian tribes)

Everyone has good intentions. I doubt you'd ever defend the Qun though. 

I'd be curious to note what morality means to you.

Elves are treated horribly (still!) disregarding the Dales completely (who REALLY started that is lost to history). The tales of Shartan has been struck out of the Chant (because you can't fight the people who helped you fight the Imperium). They weren't even allowed to join the Chantry in the Dragon Age, hundreds of years later (now they can. but it is rare, says Gaider). Even Sebastian admits the Chantry doesn't do enough for the elves. 

Mages are treated like scum, even when the only thing they've done wrong at that moment is be born. 

I'm just saying that maybe Tevinter isn't a place where every mage kills elven children and does blood magic with them for the lulz. 

MisterJB wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...
It seriously feels like you are stating that if it doesn't have a SLAVERY sign flashing and blinking over its head, it isn't slavery. 

I'm being realistic. Social inequalities have always existed and will always exist. Alistair didn't want to become a templar but he also didn't have many choices in life.
I think it's ridiculous to compare this to the actual slaves of Tevinter who are abused in every way possible and imaginable.

have you read the Calling? It goes into Fiona's background. She was whipped, beaten, and sexually abused by an Orlesian noble who bought her on the black market.

Human cruelty is not restricted to Tevinters, or even humans.

Modifié par Palipride47, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:47 .

[Xilizhra]

I doubt you'd ever defend the Qun though.

Believe me, he has. Several times. Disagreeing with specifics but preferring them over Tevinter.

[Palipride47]

Xilizhra wrote...

I doubt you'd ever defend the Qun though.

Believe me, he has. Several times. Disagreeing with specifics but preferring them over Tevinter.

Obviously just hates Tevinter then.

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

I doubt you'd ever defend the Qun though.

Believe me, he has. Several times. Disagreeing with specifics but preferring them over Tevinter.

I'd take Qun over the Imperium as you could drastically alter their society with cookies, and cake whereas in the Imperium they'd probably use your liquified remains to make the icing.

[MisterJB]

Palipride47 wrote...
The Qun was developed to combat immorality that Koslun saw in his society (immorality which he defined as social inequality)
The cult of the Maker (later, the Chantry) was developed to combat the immorality of the magisters (specifically against the barbarian tribes)

Everyone has good intentions. I doubt you'd ever defend the Qun though. 

You'd be wrong, there are some good things to be said about the Qun.
And not everyone has good intentions.

I'd be curious to note what morality means to you.

Elves are treated horribly (still!) disregarding the Dales completely (who REALLY started that is lost to history). The tales of Shartan has been struck out of the Chant (because you can't fight the people who helped you fight the Imperium). They weren't even allowed to join the Chantry in the Dragon Age, hundreds of years later (now they can. but it is rare, says Gaider). Even Sebastian admits the Chantry doesn't do enough for the elves.

I've never claimed Andrastian society is perfect. There is a great social inequality between elves and human amongst other things. Which doesn't change the fact that it is thanks to the Chantry that slavery has been outlawed and is viewed as deplorable; that there aren't blood mages and abominations roaming the lands.
The Chantry is not perfect but, the way I see it, it has greatly improved the world of Thedas.

Mages are treated like scum, even when the only thing they've done wrong at that moment is be born. 

Mages are treated like dangerous things which they are. They are kept in a luxurious tower amongst their own where they are clothed, fed and educated. Many people in our world would kill for those living conditions.
There are a lot of rules in place to protect the mages altough, I admit, they aren't always respected.

I'm just saying that maybe Tevinter isn't a place where every mage kills elven children and does blood magic with them for the lulz.

According to every account, every single magister practices blood ritual sacrifices and own slaves. The mages who don't are slaves themselves.

Human cruelty is not restricted to Tevinters, or even humans. 

I did read the Calling and I've always admitted humans have not created a perfect society not are they guiltless beings.
However, there is only one account of one orlesian noble abusing their servants so with many other accounts of them beings estimated and slavers being pursued by the law.

[Medhia Nox]

Anders would have been eaten alive by the tyrants of Tevinter.

[thats1evildude]

MisterJB wrote...

So, why not Tevinter? Is it possible Anders is a mage supremacist?

Yes and no.

Anders has never been exposed to the injustice of the Tevinter Imperium. He didn't grow up there, and to my knowledge, he's never been there. His anger toward the templars over-rules any feelings he may have towards the Imperium.

Sure, he's heard that they're bad, but some of that is no doubt Chantry propaganda. Sure, they send out slavers to drag people back to Tevinter, but is it any worse than the slavery practiced by the templars?

So yeah, he has the blinders on regarding the Tevinter Imperium. If he had cause to travel there, he might feel differently.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:25 .

[MisterJB]

Palipride47 wrote...
The tales of Shartan has been struck out of the Chant (because you can't fight the people who helped you fight the Imperium).

I forgot to mentio this. As I recall it, there is no account of when the tales of Shartan were removed from the Chant. It's possible this happened when the elves marched on Val-Royeaux or after they sacked it.
While I don't support the hiding of truth, I also won't blame the Chantry for being angry with the elves.

[brushyourteeth]

thats1evildude wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

So, why not Tevinter? Is it possible Anders is a mage supremacist?

Yes and no.

Anders has never been exposed to the injustice of the Tevinter Imperium. He didn't grow up there, and to my knowledge, he's never been there. His anger toward the templars over-rules any feelings he may have towards the Imperium.

Sure, he's heard that they're bad, but some of that is no doubt Chantry propaganda. Sure, they send out slavers to drag back to Tevinter, but is it any worse than the slavery practiced by the templars?

So yeah, he has the blinders on regarding the Tevinter Imperium. If he had cause to travel there, he might feel differently.

Well said. 

[Palipride47]

MisterJB wrote...

You'd be wrong, there are some good things to be said about the Qun.
And not everyone has good intentions.

Ok, I generalized, I'm sorry. I agree that some people are nasty. And I'd say that for every religious/political affiliation.

MisterJB wrote...

I've never claimed Andrastian society is perfect. There is a great social inequality between elves and human amongst other things. Which doesn't change the fact that it is thanks to the Chantry that slavery has been outlawed and is viewed as deplorable; that there aren't blood mages and abominations roaming the lands.
The Chantry is not perfect but, the way I see it, it has greatly improved the world of Thedas.

I think it has traded some obvious horrible things for subtely horrible things. So, I'm netural on that remark.

MisterJB wrote...

Mages are treated like dangerous things which they are. They are kept in a luxurious tower amongst their own where they are clothed, fed and educated. Many people in our world would kill for those living conditions.
There are a lot of rules in place to protect the mages altough, I admit, they aren't always respected.

If they even make it to the Tower. They could've been torn apart by a lynch mob if something in the town went wrong (dialogue with Wynne). Or if the Templars ran a sword through them for hiding (and these are kids, not some grizzled maleficar). Not excusing acts of terror or blood magic, but it isn't like everyone's cool with mages UNTIL they do something bad. 

And you think the populace feeds and clothes them thorugh taxes or something? No, they have to make money through the shops and selling reagants and enchantments. If they can't come up with the funds, they don't eat either. It is just because their skills are valued, not them. 

MisterJB wrote...
According to every account, every single magister practices blood ritual sacrifices and own slaves. The mages who don't are slaves themselves.

According to the account of a Lord Seeker and a Tevinter slave who admits there may be good and noble magisters that he has never met. 

We don't even know how big the Senate in Tevinter is, how the power is distributed, anything that like. Maybe the ones who don't use blood magic kinda just sit it out and preserve their smaller positions.

The US Congress is like that. We have 100 senators and 435 congresspeople. Some are household names all over America and some are household names only in their household. Some are slimy and some try to be good when it comes to ethics.

To claim that EVERY SINGLE MAGISTER by EVERY ACCOUNT (all from Andrastians or those with Andratian biases) uses blood magic is a bit disingenous, yes? Like saying EVERY SINGLE POLITICIAN is a corrupt bastard. 

MisterJB wrote...
I did read the Calling and I've always admitted humans have not created a perfect society not are they guiltless beings.
However, there is only one account of one orlesian noble abusing their servants so with many other accounts of them beings estimated and slavers being pursued by the law.

Where are these "other accounts"? I see one account by Leliana that could go both ways (and admitted her bias), and a bit in comics with Isabela about the Orlesians hanging slavers. 
A country might operate on "official policy" but not crack down on what its own people do. America has a tired history about slavery and racism that runs in that same vein.


EDIT:Format was horrible

Modifié par Palipride47, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:30 .

[MisterJB]

Palipride47 wrote...
If they even make it to the Tower. They could've been torn apart by a lynch mob if something in the town went wrong (dialogue with Wynne). Or if the Templars ran a sword through them for hiding (and these are kids, not some grizzled maleficar).

Those things do happen and I'm against them. I support the Chantry and the Circle system but that doesn't mean I'm not open to changes.

And you think the populace feeds and clothes them thorugh taxes or something? No, they have to make money through the shops and selling reagants and enchantments. If they can't come up with the funds, they don't eat either. It is just because their skills are valued, not them. 

How is that any different from everyone else in the world?
And the Chantry is not going to let precious resources like the mages starve.

According to the account of a Lork Seeker and a Tevinter slave who admits there may be good and noble magisters that he has never met.

We don't even know how big the Senate is, how the power is distributed, anything that like. Maybe the ones who don't use blood magic kinda just sit it out and preserve their smaller positions. The American Congress is like that. We have 100 senators and 435 congresspeople. Some are household names all over America and some are household names only in their house. To claim that EVERY SINGLE MAGISTER by EVERY ACCOUNT (all from Andrastians or those with Andratian biases) uses blood magic is a bit disingenous, yes? 

Shall we say every single magister of any importance with any hopes of influenting the future of the country, instead?
Also, there are codex entries on the Imperium not written by Andrastians.

Where are these "other accounts"? I see one account by Leliana that could go both ways (and admitted her bias), and a bit in comics with Isabela about the Orlesians hanging slavers. 
A country might operate on "official policy" but not crack down on what its own people do. America has a tired history about slavery and racism that runs in that same vein.

This, for instance;
" In recent years, though, the laws against slavery have become more strictly upheld. Empress Celene may have been instrumental in this change of policy."

It's not perfect but elves live better in Orlais than in Tevinter.

[Xilizhra]

And the Chantry is not going to let precious resources like the mages starve.

Tell that to Cole.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...

And the Chantry is not going to let precious resources like the mages starve.

Tell that to Cole.

Ok, I'll tell it to all other mages who didn't starve to death in the Circles.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...


And the Chantry is not going to let precious resources like the mages starve.

I'd say gifted people. They're not machines.

[Palipride47]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And the Chantry is not going to let precious resources like the mages starve.

Tell that to Cole.

Ok, I'll tell it to all other mages who didn't starve to death in the Circles.

Or maybe tell the mages that are "protected" that they won't get beaten/ raped/ whatever.

All I'm saying is that there is room for Tevinter to not be the fuel of nightmares

Tevinter can be a complex society with good points and bad points like EVERY OTHER NATION IN THEDAS (including Par Vollen)

Just mkake some room for nuance. Dragon Age is all about nuance, difficult choices, and shades of grey. That's why they re-wrote DA2 to make Orsino a boss (or they just wanted another boss for the awesome button, but I'm an optimist). That's one of the "writing" reasons your living sibling is an opposite class and the other one gets ogresmash. That's why there is no "morality" scale, a.la. Fable. 

Also, you might have a Tevinter magister named Dorian "on a crusade to eradicte corruption in his homeland" as a companion or companion/LI, so we'll find out who is more right on the perception of magisters. 

Modifié par Palipride47, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:01 .

[animedreamer]

 Also Anders was a devote Andrastian, he believed in her overall message but felt that the Chantry misconstrued her teachings and her vision, and in a since i agree.. why a would someone who was more than likely somewhat a mage herself create a following that would then want to imprision/shackle all mages? its silly.

[MisterJB]

Palipride47 wrote...
Or maybe tell the mages that are "protected" that they won't get beaten/ raped/ whatever.

And so I will. Most aren't ever beaten or raped.

All I'm saying is that there is room for Tevinter to not be the fuel of nightmares, to be a complex society with good points and bad points like EVERY OTHER NATION IN THEDAS (including Par Vollen)

Mayhaps but you won't find the good points in the ruling Magisters.

[Palipride47]

MisterJB wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...
All I'm saying is that there is room for Tevinter to not be the fuel of nightmares, to be a complex society with good points and bad points like EVERY OTHER NATION IN THEDAS (including Par Vollen)

Mayhaps but you won't find the good points in the ruling Magisters.

You finished your post before I finished adding to mine....


You might have a Tevinter magister named Dorian "on a crusade to eradicte corruption in his homeland" as a companion or companion/LI, so we'll find out who is more right on the perception of magisters. 

MisterJB wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...
Or maybe tell the mages that are "protected" that they won't get beaten/ raped/ whatever.

And so I will. Most aren't ever beaten or raped.

And, really, MOST?! Since only a small minority are beaten or raped, it can be dismissed with a handwave?

And you don't need to actually be struck or violated to feel/ be abused. The psychological toll of just BEING THERE isn't something to dismiss.

It's a prison b**** dynamic. And it is only a matter of time before the "guards" start dehumanizing the "prisoners"

Modifié par Palipride47, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:08 .

[Xilizhra]

You might have a Tevinter magister named Dorian "on a crusade to eradicte corruption in his homeland" as a companion or companion/LI, so we'll find out who is more right on the perception of magisters.

And as a sidenote, it bugs the hell out of me that he seems to be male, as I would love to romance this person otherwise.

[Palipride47]

Xilizhra wrote...

You might have a Tevinter magister named Dorian "on a crusade to eradicte corruption in his homeland" as a companion or companion/LI, so we'll find out who is more right on the perception of magisters.

And as a sidenote, it bugs the hell out of me that he seems to be male, as I would love to romance this person otherwise.

If he's romancable (and awesome, as the description of his character seems to be) I will. Even if I play a dude. 

[Xilizhra]

Palipride47 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You might have a Tevinter magister named Dorian "on a crusade to eradicte corruption in his homeland" as a companion or companion/LI, so we'll find out who is more right on the perception of magisters.

And as a sidenote, it bugs the hell out of me that he seems to be male, as I would love to romance this person otherwise.

If he's romancable (and awesome, as the description of his character seems to be) I will. Even if I play a dude. 

Even with that, I can't play through an attraction to men.