656 réponses à ce sujet

[Terrorize69]

Since everyone seems in the mood to "debate/argue" lets atleast do a bit of positive debating.. Templar vs Mages!





War is approaching, who will you side with?

social.bioware.com/864179/polls/40927/

Cast you side

Modifié par Terrorize69, 23 octobre 2012 - 07:17 .

[thats1evildude]

The other 50 or so threads on this topic weren't enough?

[Xilizhra]

You know, you don't need to make a topic for this. In fact, any topic that mentions mages, magic, the Chantry, templars, or class specializations will automatically become it over time.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

May the templars burn and the chantry cry as the mage rule thedas once again.

[mousestalker]

It's better to cook them with magic, than it is to rule over them? That would explain why all the Circle mages love to cast fireball. Good to know.

Modifié par mousestalker, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:02 .

[Foolsfolly]

It doesn't matter who you side with and it doesn't matter who wins. The Chantry started as a popular revolt against mage overlords who terrorized, enslaved, and just in general brutalized all non-mages. The uprising put mages on the lower rungs of society but its because of the violence and horror the mages inflicted on normal beings.

The Chantry then turned on its allies (elves) and while they didn't enslave mages they're really damn close to be slaves to the Chantry (it's actually more accurate to say they're prisoners to the Chantry).

If the Templars win expect more brutality against mages especially if the Chantry isn't funding the Templars. Without the Chantry's influence and wealth do you really think they'll be able to afford Circles? Nah, they'll likely just kill mages outright or throw them in Aeonar.

If the Mages win what can keep them in check? Absolute power corrupts absolutely. They have powers over the very fabric of reality. Able to kill a person with their thoughts. Human beings are capable of being complete monsters without any such powers. Mages unshackled by the Circle will rise to power. Not all of them but it's inevitable. And with all the bad blood against the Chantry and Templars the mages will fight back. Again not all but they will. And once they're on top the tormented becomes the tormentor.

And eventually the normals will rise up again. Maybe without the titles of Chantry or Templar. But the cycle of violence continues regardless.

If there's any hope at all for peace between mage and non-mage then neither side can win. They need to find a third option and both sides need to put up their hatred and fear. But I can't see a way to do that. And so the violence will continue.

It really doesn't matter who wins. The fact there's war already damns them both.

[Terrorize69]

Xilizhra wrote...

You know, you don't need to make a topic for this. In fact, any topic that mentions mages, magic, the Chantry, templars, or class specializations will automatically become it over time.

I know, but this saves time and mayve it will get derailed into those other topics that would normally be derailed into this lol

Anyway, mages deserve to be free I 'll always cast my lot in with them in my "canon" play throughs lol

[Palipride47]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You know, you don't need to make a topic for this. In fact, any topic that mentions mages, magic, the Chantry, templars, or class specializations will automatically become it over time.

I know, but this saves time and mayve it will get derailed into those other topics that would normally be derailed into this lol

Anyway, mages deserve to be free I 'll always cast my lot in with them in my "canon" play throughs lol

I was about to say the same thing, I accidently derailed the one about Anders in Tevinter, prob should cross over.

[upsettingshorts]

I don't think the mages broadly present a civil rights issue, except in cases when the Templars abuse their authority, which they do with alarming regularity.

I think the existence of mages in a world like Thedas is closer to the issue of gun control. Eg. how do we restrict gun rights enough to prevent irresponsible/reprehensible use of firearms without infringing on the freedom of those who own and use them safely and responsibly.

When the issue is about civil rights, I think siding with the mages is the only appropriate choice. When the issue is about "mage control" I think some answer must be found, because mages and mundanes are not equal and never will be.

[Zardoc]

War is approaching, who will you side with?

With neither.

[Foolsfolly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I don't think the mages broadly present a civil rights issue, except in cases when the Templars abuse their authority, which they do with alarming regularity.

I think the existence of mages in a world like Thedas is closer to the issue of gun control. Eg. how do we restrict gun rights enough to prevent irresponsible/reprehensible use of firearms without infringing on the freedom of those who own and use them safely and responsibly.

When the issue is about civil rights, I think siding with the mages is the only appropriate choice. When the issue is about "mage control" I think some answer must be found, because mages and mundanes are not equal and never will be.

I agree with this.

The mage issue dips its toes into civil rights all the time but it's got nothing else in common with it. For one mages and non-mages are never going to be equal. Full stop. Mages have abilities far beyond normal beings. A normal guy need a lot of time, some friends, and some heavy equipment to level a house a mage needs to stand outside of its blast radius.

They're not equals.

[upsettingshorts]

Basically.

The way I've explained it before is:

Imagine how different the issue of gun control in the real world would be if people were born with automatic weapons, rocket launchers, etc as part of their bodies that could not be removed or deactivated.

That's the mage issue in a nutshell. Thedas does have a method of deactivation/removal, but Tranquiling people is hardly a nice alternative to locking them all up.

Now, that isn't to say that's all there is to it. Those are still people with rocket launcher arms, and the second their humanity stops being important to everyone - such as with Templar abuses - it is absolutely a human rights issue.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:47 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

I find these discussions interesting as they tend to accept as a starting point "Magic is meant to serve man, never to rule him," and then argue over what the social implications of that are.

But why? Why should we presuppose the purpose of magic? Magic is simply magic - making assertions beyond that is baseless.

There are mages, and there are non-mages. Each has different capabilities. There is no reason for non-mages to resent the magical powers of mages any more than there is reason for rabbits to resent the abilities of eagles to fly and prey upon rabbits.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

You know, you don't need to make a topic for this. In fact, any topic that mentions mages, magic, the Chantry, templars, or class specializations will automatically become it over time.

No one agrees on this issue. Some people believe mages deserve their autonomy from the Chantry and the templars, and other people support the Chantry controlled Circles and the Order of Templars. There will never be a consensus when it comes to the schism between the two ideologies.

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

There are mages, and there are non-mages. Each has different capabilities. There is no reason for non-mages to resent the magical powers of mages any more than there is reason for rabbits to resent the abilities of eagles to fly and prey upon rabbits.

Resent the existence of?  No, I don't think there is.

Fear the potential abuses of?  Absolutely.

[Yalision]

Knowing all the lore, it is hard to decide who to support. If mages are allowed to run free without being policed, we risk another Tevinter Imperium. Simply put, power corrupts and mages have too much. Even though I sided with the mages in DA2, I only did so because Meredith was under outside influence in the idol and because Anders put innocent lives at risk because of his selfishness. Given the choice without these outside variables, however, I would argue that the Templars are a necessary evil.

[Iosev]

I like the magic debate. On one hand, you're dealing with people that could potentially bring disaster upon themselves and others, but in the other hand, they're still people, who have the same desires of life, liberty, and pursuits of happiness as normal people do. I have my own ideas on how to handle the situation (a mixture of proactive policies like better education and mage integration into society, and reactive policies like pursuing known criminals, rather than trying to contain all magi).

[Foolsfolly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

There are mages, and there are non-mages. Each has different capabilities. There is no reason for non-mages to resent the magical powers of mages any more than there is reason for rabbits to resent the abilities of eagles to fly and prey upon rabbits.

Resent the existence of?  No, I don't think there is.

Fear the potential abuses of?  Absolutely.

To resent the existence of magic magic has to be something new. In Thedas magic's always existed hand-in-hand with life. So yeah there'd be no real resentment towards it (in fact I think most people see it as a stain or a curse look at shell-shocked mage in Origins, the Amells family history, and the whole Connor fiasco).

Fear it? Oh yeah.

We feared sharks after Jaws came out and nearly hunted the guys to existension entirely because they have big teeth and can kill a swimmer once every few years. Mages are much more dangerous than sharks. In fact because of that I feel the Circles are very very progressive as far as reactions to mage abuses go.

That doesn't mean they're progressive from a civil rights stance though. And I'm sure many players wished they were more Hogwarts and less Alcatraz but it is progressive when you think of how humanity dealt (and sadly still deals with) allegations of witches in reality.

[Medhia Nox]

I'm already feeling oppressed by mages on this forum - these threads are getting out of hand.

[Yalision]

I think freedom from the circle should be allowed given time and training for each Mage. Then they can be set about to live their lives and use their gifts for others how they see fit. At least the Templars have their phylactery if them mage does go abomination.

[Bfler]

Hm, this thread again.

Why not for a change f.e. soldier vs biotic.

[Maclimes]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm already feeling oppressed by mages on this forum - these threads are getting out of hand.

Seriously. Before these posts, I tended to make decisions based on the characters I was role playing. I have no specific "out of character" opinion on the issue of fictional politics (real world politics are bad enough).

BUT, these threads generally make me want to just kill all mages and all templars in all games.

[Foolsfolly]

Yalision wrote...

I think freedom from the circle should be allowed given time and training for each Mage. Then they can be set about to live their lives and use their gifts for others how they see fit. At least the Templars have their phylactery if them mage does go abomination.

I agree with this. And that means the Templars must be reactive only to mages. Which is problematic with human nature.

The moment a mage goes nuts and kills a family, a person, a ox, a city block, an entire village whatever. The moment that crime occurs the victims and the families of the victims will ask everyone "How could this have happened? Why couldn't we prevent it."

And in their emotional state they'll wish to collar all mages to protect everyone else. Or worse... And someone will gain power by "speaking for the victims." It's human nature.

And when it's your family that was killed and you hear stories all the time about how others continue to suffer from mage criminals.... you can see how the idea of the Circle seemed like a perfect solution for the vast majority of people in Thedas.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You know, you don't need to make a topic for this. In fact, any topic that mentions mages, magic, the Chantry, templars, or class specializations will automatically become it over time.

No one agrees on this issue. Some people believe mages deserve their autonomy from the Chantry and the templars, and other people support the Chantry controlled Circles and the Order of Templars. There will never be a consensus when it comes to the schism between the two ideologies.

And there are people in the middle, who don't complerely agree with both groups.