656 réponses à ce sujet

[silentassassin264]

Order is not intrinsically good but if your plan is to put two volatile chemicals together and hope they don't explode, it is not a good plan. As bad as I believe the templars imprisoning the mages just for being born is, having no plan for the future is worse. What if extremist decide mages cannot be contained and just decide to kill em all? What if mages do indeed go for the Tevinter model? The result of having no plan is more violence and chaos. Having all out war would cost more lives on both sides. Even worse if it leads to a cycle of wars with the oppressed continuously having to overthrow oppressors. Killing bad guys is a terrible idea if you have no plan to prevent another possibly worse bad guy from taking over. Violence does not solve problems...at least not permanently.

[Xilizhra]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Order is not intrinsically good but if your plan is to put two volatile chemicals together and hope they don't explode, it is not a good plan. As bad as I believe the templars imprisoning the mages just for being born is, having no plan for the future is worse. What if extremist decide mages cannot be contained and just decide to kill em all? What if mages do indeed go for the Tevinter model? The result of having no plan is more violence and chaos. Having all out war would cost more lives on both sides. Even worse if it leads to a cycle of wars with the oppressed continuously having to overthrow oppressors. Killing bad guys is a terrible idea if you have no plan to prevent another possibly worse bad guy from taking over. Violence does not solve problems...at least not permanently.

And so as the Inquisitor, I shall come up with a plan to do so, when I have a decent picture of the situation.

[silentassassin264]

Xilizhra, you said you were trying to find a plan. Sylvius was not advocating any plan. His wasn't trying to reconcile magic with anything. He was just going to free the mages because he could and let things happen. You may be advocating responsibility but they are not.

[SilentWriter]

I'll side with whoever contacts me about work first. Be they mages, templars, or some third party.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

And so as the Inquisitor, I shall come up with a plan to do so, when I have a decent picture of the situation.

You could follow the model Aldenon the Wise sought to implement in his time - creating a kingdom of equality.

[Xx_DeBoe_xX]

I like to think of what I would do in real life. If I was born with magical abilities I would abuse them for my own personal gain for sure. If I was living in Thedas and I was born with magic I would resent the circle and want to escape and punish those who oppress my people. If I was born without magical abilities I would probably fear the mages and want them put down like dogs so I could feel safer. When I play a mage I'm 100% pro mage anti Templar. When I play a rogue I usually side with the Templars to keep the peace.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And so as the Inquisitor, I shall come up with a plan to do so, when I have a decent picture of the situation.

You could follow the model Aldenon the Wise sought to implement in his time - creating a kingdom of equality.

I'd rather try to find something that works then repeat a man's failure.

[Plaintiff]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Best way is to draw up a breeding program with Mages and Templars.. get a half Templar half Mage cross breed, has the powers of the a Mage, and the resistance to possession of a Templar. Win win.

The only known progeny of a templar and a mage at this stage is Eiton, from Dragon Age Legends, conceived by the former templar, Ravi, and the elven mage Iselle. He was born Tranquil.

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I'd rather try to find something that works then repeat a man's failure.

Aldenon the Wise didn't have the opportunity to make his dream a reality, because Calenhad betrayed him. The Mage rebellion can accomplish what he couldn't, now that mages have gained autonomy from the Chantry and the templars. As long as they manage to keep their freedom from the Seekers and the templars hunting them down, I think there's a possibility of establishing a society where mages and non-mages can live together. I think it's worth the effort to try to make Aldenon's dream a reality.

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

The only known progeny of a templar and a mage at this stage is Eiton, from Dragon Age Legends, conceived by the former templar, Ravi, and the elven mage Iselle. He was born Tranquil.

That's not strictly accurate. A Mage in the prequel comics had a Mage and Templar parent.

[Plaintiff]

silentassassin264 wrote...
He is mad.  Why are you agreeing with him?

 
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I am all for liberty but I cannot accept removing one form of oppression just to replace it with another.  It is stupid to fight a war to end oppression just to cause the oppressed to become oppressors and have to do it all over again.

And who says this will happen? I said I would fight the mages if they become oppressors. But I don't think they will.

 

A neverending cycle of violence helps no one.  If you are not going to find some way to attempt to make equilibrium, there is no reason to stir the chaos.

Yes, let's all sit back and allow blatant tyranny to persist because we can't come up with a better plan.

The current system broke down already without any help from a player character. Chaos reigns regardless.

As it is, I have actually sat down and thought about how I would reform the Circle system, and I've outlined my plan on this forum several times. But it is a long-term project that would take several years, and woud require a fundamental shift in the way society perceives mages and magic, and somehow I doubt the DA series is prepared to accomodate me.

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The only known progeny of a templar and a mage at this stage is Eiton, from Dragon Age Legends, conceived by the former templar, Ravi, and the elven mage Iselle. He was born Tranquil.

That's not strictly accurate. A Mage in the prequel comics had a Mage and Templar parent.

Oh. What's his deal?

[SeptimusMagistos]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Order is not intrinsically good but if your plan is to put two volatile chemicals together and hope they don't explode, it is not a good plan. As bad as I believe the templars imprisoning the mages just for being born is, having no plan for the future is worse. What if extremist decide mages cannot be contained and just decide to kill em all? What if mages do indeed go for the Tevinter model? The result of having no plan is more violence and chaos. Having all out war would cost more lives on both sides. Even worse if it leads to a cycle of wars with the oppressed continuously having to overthrow oppressors. Killing bad guys is a terrible idea if you have no plan to prevent another possibly worse bad guy from taking over. Violence does not solve problems...at least not permanently.

Hey, if they let me have a plan, I'm making a plan.

If not, I'm tearing down the oppressive circle system and hoping that whatever comes next is better. If it isn't, I'm tearing that down too. Rinse and repeat until something palatable emerges.

Again, though, a real plan would be preferable. Just not mandatory.

[KiwiQuiche]

Yes, I would free the mages. They have done no crime aside from being born as they are. They are just locked up because they 'might' become Blood Mages/Abominations/Loonies. That's a completely stupid reason, it's like stuffing someone in prison because they 'might' do a crime, while there is no evidence to prove it. Yes, mages have magic but that is no excuse. It's like caging someone who was born extremely large and strong, because they would cause more damage if they threw a rage, over someone born weak and lanky while they have never displayed agressive behaviour.

In my opinions the Circle is akin to slavery; you take the children from their family by force and never let them met each other agin, lock them up for the majority of their lives, use them only when the Chantry needs them other wise they are kept locked up and lobotomize them if they seem 'weak.'

It's a stupid, cruel policy and I for one will happily cast it down and hopefully something better will come to pass.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I'd rather try to find something that works then repeat a man's failure.

Aldenon the Wise didn't have the opportunity to make his dream a reality, because Calenhad betrayed him. The Mage rebellion can accomplish what he couldn't, now that mages have gained autonomy from the Chantry and the templars. As long as they manage to keep their freedom from the Seekers and the templars hunting them down, I think there's a possibility of establishing a society where mages and non-mages can live together. I think it's worth the effort to try to make Aldenon's dream a reality.

Tevinter disproves this I'm all for idealism but realistically mages and mundanes can not coexist on the same terms the mages need the Templars to keep them in check the best you can hope for is compromize and and overhall of the current system.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:57 .

[Plaintiff]

Rojahar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

And who says this will happen? I said I would fight the mages if they become oppressors. But I don't think they will.

Just curious, but what's your opinion of what Anders did in DA2, and how did you deal with him?

I think Anders logic was sound, and I perceive his actions as morally correct. I keep him alive. I have always been of the opinion that some sort of violent action was eventually going to be needed. Something had to snap. It didn't have to be Kirkwall and it didn't have to be Anders, but then DA2 would be a different game.

I consider the Chantry generally, and Elthina in particular, as being complicit in the oppression of the mages, and I think she deserves what she gets. I know a lot of people perceive her as sympathetic to the mages, or at least neutral, but I disagree. I think she was simply trying to maintain a status quo that I view as both fundamentally flawed and morally wrong. She had the power to improve the situation in Kirkwall, but she spent the better part of a decade wringing her hands and staring at her navel. I don't think there's any excuse for that.

[Shadow Fox]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yes, I would free the mages. They have done no crime aside from being born as they are. They are just locked up because they 'might' become Blood Mages/Abominations/Loonies. That's a completely stupid reason, it's like stuffing someone in prison because they 'might' do a crime, while there is no evidence to prove it. Yes, mages have magic but that is no excuse. It's like caging someone who was born extremely large and strong, because they would cause more damage if they threw a rage, over someone born weak and lanky while they have never displayed agressive behaviour.

In my opinions the Circle is akin to slavery; you take the children from their family by force and never let them met each other agin, lock them up for the majority of their lives, use them only when the Chantry needs them other wise they are kept locked up and lobotomize them if they seem 'weak.'

It's a stupid, cruel policy and I for one will happily cast it down and hopefully something better will come to pass.

so you'd rather risk untrained or possesed mages running amok to cause chaos,death and wanton destruction with nothing capable of stoping them?
The difference between a mage and a mundane is the scale and potenial of destruction is much much larger for a mage.That and a large mundane can be subdued rather easily by other mundanes a mage can only be netrulized easily by Templars,other mages or Dwarves.

[Plaintiff]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I'd rather try to find something that works then repeat a man's failure.

Aldenon the Wise didn't have the opportunity to make his dream a reality, because Calenhad betrayed him. The Mage rebellion can accomplish what he couldn't, now that mages have gained autonomy from the Chantry and the templars. As long as they manage to keep their freedom from the Seekers and the templars hunting them down, I think there's a possibility of establishing a society where mages and non-mages can live together. I think it's worth the effort to try to make Aldenon's dream a reality.

Tevinter disproves this I'm all for idealism but realistically mages and mundanes can not coexist on the same terms the mages need the Templars to keep them in check the best you can hope for is compromize and and overhall of the current system.

The British Empire proves that, realisitically, the British and everyone else can not coexist on the same terms.

Tevinter is a terrible system, run by bad people, that happens to be based on magic. If there was no magic in Thedas, and power in Tevinter was instead based on wealth, or physical beauty, it would still be exactly as terrible as it is currently. Slavery and murder would still be just as rampant, they would simpy be occuring for different reasons.

[Shadow Fox]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rojahar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

And who says this will happen? I said I would fight the mages if they become oppressors. But I don't think they will.

Just curious, but what's your opinion of what Anders did in DA2, and how did you deal with him?

I think Anders logic was sound, and I perceive his actions as morally correct. I keep him alive. I have always been of the opinion that some sort of violent action was eventually going to be needed. Something had to snap. It didn't have to be Kirkwall and it didn't have to be Anders, but then DA2 would be a different game.

I consider the Chantry generally, and Elthina in particular, as being complicit in the oppression of the mages, and I think she deserves what she gets. I know a lot of people perceive her as sympathetic to the mages, or at least neutral, but I disagree. I think she was simply trying to maintain a status quo that I view as both fundamentally flawed and morally wrong. She had the power to improve the situation in Kirkwall, but she spent the better part of a decade wringing her hands and staring at her navel. I don't think there's any excuse for that.

And the fact that innocent people were most likely killed by his actions doesn't bother you in the slightest?Or you know she was trying*in vain* to keep the city from being torn apart by mages and templars?

[Plaintiff]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yes, I would free the mages. They have done no crime aside from being born as they are. They are just locked up because they 'might' become Blood Mages/Abominations/Loonies. That's a completely stupid reason, it's like stuffing someone in prison because they 'might' do a crime, while there is no evidence to prove it. Yes, mages have magic but that is no excuse. It's like caging someone who was born extremely large and strong, because they would cause more damage if they threw a rage, over someone born weak and lanky while they have never displayed agressive behaviour.

In my opinions the Circle is akin to slavery; you take the children from their family by force and never let them met each other agin, lock them up for the majority of their lives, use them only when the Chantry needs them other wise they are kept locked up and lobotomize them if they seem 'weak.'

It's a stupid, cruel policy and I for one will happily cast it down and hopefully something better will come to pass.

so you'd rather risk untrained or possesed mages running amok to cause chaos,death and wanton destruction with nothing capable of stoping them?
The difference between a mage and a mundane is the scale and potenial of destruction is much much larger for a mage.That and a large mundane can be subdued rather easily by other mundanes a mage can only be netrulized easily by Templars,other mages or Dwarves.

Freeing the mages from the Circle system does not equate to allowing them to run around unsupervised any more than freeing children from abusive parents equates to allowing them to run around unsupervised.

[Plaintiff]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And the fact that innocent people were most likely killed by his actions doesn't bother you in the slightest?

Define "innocent". I didn't see any innocent people hurt in the explosion, and if they were content to continue living in a society that supports slavery, then I don't feel any sympathy for them at all.

Or you know she was trying*in vain* to keep the city from being torn apart by mages and templars?

Obviously she wasn't trying very hard. She had a number of options that she didn't take.

Even if she wasn't completely incompetent, any solution she could've come up with would have been a stop-gap solution at best. Might as well slap a bandaid on a tumor. Getting rid of Meredith does not change the fact that the Circle system is inherently abusive, and it does not change the fact that the Chantry is a bigoted, oppressive institution.

[Shadow Fox]

Plaintiff wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I'd rather try to find something that works then repeat a man's failure.

Aldenon the Wise didn't have the opportunity to make his dream a reality, because Calenhad betrayed him. The Mage rebellion can accomplish what he couldn't, now that mages have gained autonomy from the Chantry and the templars. As long as they manage to keep their freedom from the Seekers and the templars hunting them down, I think there's a possibility of establishing a society where mages and non-mages can live together. I think it's worth the effort to try to make Aldenon's dream a reality.

Tevinter disproves this I'm all for idealism but realistically mages and mundanes can not coexist on the same terms the mages need the Templars to keep them in check the best you can hope for is compromize and and overhall of the current system.

The British Empire proves that, realisitically, the British and everyone else can not coexist on the same terms.

Tevinter is a terrible system, run by bad people, that happens to be based on magic. If there was no magic in Thedas, and power in Tevinter was instead based on wealth, or physical beauty, it would still be exactly as terrible as it is currently. Slavery and murder would still be just as rampant, they would simpy be occuring for different reasons.

And it took years of brutal revolution and compromize to change anything.

You seem to be forgeting that mages are far more powerful than mundanes a mage can put down a revolt far easier than a mundane king mostly because a king needs an army to carry out his orders all a mage has to do is cast a fireball or use Blood Magic and poof no more rebellion it took a Sprit of Justice's help to free trapped souls from a blood mage for Christ's sake.

[Shadow Fox]

Plaintiff wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And the fact that innocent people were most likely killed by his actions doesn't bother you in the slightest?

Define "innocent". I didn't see any innocent people hurt in the explosion, and if they were content to continue living in a society that supports slavery, then I don't feel any sympathy for them at all.

Or you know she was trying*in vain* to keep the city from being torn apart by mages and templars?

Obviously she wasn't trying very hard. She had a number of options that she didn't take.

Even if she wasn't completely incompetent, any solution she could've come up with would have been a stop-gap solution at best. Might as well slap a bandaid on a tumor. Getting rid of Meredith does not change the fact that the Circle system is inherently abusive, and it does not change the fact that the Chantry is a bigoted, oppressive institution.

So basically you'd support a massive culling of most  of the world good to know and a huge explosion or giant burning chunks of rock can never hurt anyone right?

Yes because one person can overturn centuries of practice just on theier word please even the King of Ferelden couldn't do that.