656 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
So basically you'd support a massive culling of most  of the world good to know and a huge explosion or giant burning chunks of rock can never hurt anyone right?

If you want me to believe anyone else was injured by the explosion, then show me the cutscene that proves it.

Yes because one person can overturn centuries of practice just on theier word please even the King of Ferelden couldn't do that.

I don't expect Elthina to do that. I never said Thedas would be fixed overnight. But she could make a goddamn start.

Or, alternatively, if she wasn't happy with the way the Chantry works, she had seven freaking years to leave it and find something else to do with her life. She didn't do that, so I can only presume she's happy with the current system. In which case, I'm happy to upskirt her with a magical nuke.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:34 .

[Emzamination]

When the mages gain their freedom, they will kill us, along with the Divine and all the faithful. Every single mage, including the witch morrigan is now an enemy of Thedas.The order must move quickly-- The mages are relentless, if they are not all destroyed, there will be civil war without end.

Do what must be done Templar bretheren, do not hesitate, show no mercy, only then will you have gained the maker's favor.

[Plaintiff]

Rojahar wrote...

It's just when you think it's morally justified to slaughter people for "not helping", I wonder where or even if there's a line to be crossed where you would perceive mage's as oppressors? I mean, would you really say the same thing, if you applied that reasoning to reality? That its OK to blow up buildings of people, because they're not a part of your cause? If you're not with me, you're against me? I think thats the kind of thinking that eventually starts leading to oppression and thinking of others as sub-human or lesser.

That not really what I said. Elthina is not neutral, and neither is the Chantry. The Chantry is the direct source of the oppression, it founded the Circle system, and it made the rules by which the Circles operate. The templars and seekers are just tools the Chantry uses to further its own goals. That's no longer the case post-Asunder, perhaps, but DA2 is not set post-Asunder.

I look at a character like Orsino, and I see someone who's only hurt the mage cause. He covered up for a man who was murdering innocent people for the sake of sick perverse experiments. He corresponded with the man, and kept, and learned, and USED the man's research. His justification for the coverup, for all the coverups of mage crimes, was not to incriminate mages.

I think Orsino would have died a martyr who even in death won and proved he was right, if he'd have exposed the necromancy and corruption of other mages in Kirkwall, showing that "good mages" existed and wouldn't stand for such actions. He would have died and martyr, and not a hypocrite, if instead of resorting to blood magic, sacrificing people and turning into a monster bent on indescriminate killing... if he'd fought to the end maintaining his integrity and not resorting to such acts - proving Meredith and others wrong when they say that when push comes to shove all mages will give in to demons and depravity.

Yes, Orsino was a jerk. I thought we were talking about Anders?

Orsino should never have needed to resort to blood magic. Meredith should never have put him in that position to begin with. The Circle mages had no part in Anders' crime. Meredith is still the aggressor, so she is still at fault. Orsino is responsible for his own choices, but the fact that he became a Harvester does not retroactively justify the slaughter of all the innocent mages prior to that event.

There comes a point when a conflict is just both sides accusing the other of commiting atrocities and striking first, and claiming they're just righteously retaliating. Not all problems are solved by killing anyone with differing ideologies. You never saw characters like Anders and Orsino (or anyone I can think of in DA2) trying to understand and assuage Templar/anti-mage fears to prove that beliefs about mages were wrong.

Anders spent most of the game squatting in the sewers, healing people for free. He wrote manifestos and spread them around the city. What more is he supposed to have done? He was already putting himself at significant risk as it was. There is no legitimate way to openly challenge the Chantry or the Templars because they make the laws.

You'll likely say "Why is it the responsibility of mages to make compromise? Shouldn't Meredith try to placade Orsino instead?" and really, the answer is *someone* should, regardless. Could the Seekers (I believe the lore had stated they were incharge of Templar oversight) have bothered investigating and cracking down on cases of Templars abusing mages? Yeah. Would it have changed Anders' mind? Maybe, though I doubt it. The point is, when Anders' blew up the Chantry, he wasn't being anymore justified or retaliatory than Meredith was in killing every mage in the city in "justified" retaliation.

I think Anders was extremely justified. The Chantry is directly at fault for the way mages are treated. He was not being "retaliatory", no. He was striking the first blow. A blow that, in my opinion, needed to be struck.

Meredith is not justfied because she was executing mages for a crime they had not committed. If she wanted to punish the guilty party, she could've simply killed Anders herself, but she didn't.

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The only known progeny of a templar and a mage at this stage is Eiton, from Dragon Age Legends, conceived by the former templar, Ravi, and the elven mage Iselle. He was born Tranquil.

That's not strictly accurate. A Mage in the prequel comics had a Mage and Templar parent.

Oh. What's his deal?

It's actually a she. Her name is Gleam, the daughter of a Templar Apprentice named Sadatt and a Mage woman named Veness.

[KiwiQuiche]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yes, I would free the mages. They have done no crime aside from being born as they are. They are just locked up because they 'might' become Blood Mages/Abominations/Loonies. That's a completely stupid reason, it's like stuffing someone in prison because they 'might' do a crime, while there is no evidence to prove it. Yes, mages have magic but that is no excuse. It's like caging someone who was born extremely large and strong, because they would cause more damage if they threw a rage, over someone born weak and lanky while they have never displayed agressive behaviour.

In my opinions the Circle is akin to slavery; you take the children from their family by force and never let them met each other agin, lock them up for the majority of their lives, use them only when the Chantry needs them other wise they are kept locked up and lobotomize them if they seem 'weak.'

It's a stupid, cruel policy and I for one will happily cast it down and hopefully something better will come to pass.

so you'd rather risk untrained or possesed mages running amok to cause chaos,death and wanton destruction with nothing capable of stoping them?
The difference between a mage and a mundane is the scale and potenial of destruction is much much larger for a mage.That and a large mundane can be subdued rather easily by other mundanes a mage can only be netrulized easily by Templars,other mages or Dwarves.

Yes, I would let them free rather then enslaving them all because of what a few would do.

And stop being so dramatic; people without magic can cause horrific acts of chaos, death and wanton destruction; just look at the Exalted March on the Dales. That wasn't caused by mages, but religious stupidity. That death count outstips anything the big bad mages have done, barring the Imperium.

No, mages can be killed by other people just as easily. Hawke can easilly kill a hostile mage on her own as a warrior without any templar abilities. Mages aren't 'unstoppable killing machines' if they do go loony. They can be killed via a sword in the gut or an arrow in the head just as easily as the next person. Also, a madman with an axe can easily kill dozens of people on their own without magic. They can be as dangerous as a mage; they simply use different tools.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:00 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Mages aren't the same as any other man, so they cannot be treated exactly like any other man.


I'm going to strap unremovable a nuke to myself, and go trough life with a detonator in my hand.
B.t.w - did I mention that I work right next to the kindergaden your kids go to? No?

Well, I'm sure you won't mind if I get totally hammered and go hit on your wife.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Yes, I would let them free rather then enslaving them all because of what a few would do.

And stop being so dramatic; people without magic can cause horrific acts of chaos, death and wanton destruction; just look at the Exalted March on the Dales. That wasn't caused by mages, but religious stupidity. That death count outstips anything the big bad mages have done, barring the Imperium.

People with magic are FAR more dangerous.
It took armies to defeat the Dales (and the elves started it bvy some accounts, so?)

No, mages can be killed by other people just as easily. Hawke can easilly kill a hostile mage on her own as a warrior without any templar abilities. Mages are 'unstoppable killing machines' if they do go loony. They can be killed via a sword in the gut or an arrow in the head just as easily as the next person. Also, a madma with an axe can easily kill dozens of people on their own without magic. They can be as dangerous as a mage; they simply use different tools.

Fluff >>>>>> game balance.

Fluff-wise mages, and especially abominations are FAR more dangerous and powerfull than they are in the game.

And no, a madman with an axe cannto be as dangerous as a mage. Unless that madman can mind-control, tear the veil, summon demons and raise an entire army of undead?

[KiwiQuiche]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages aren't the same as any other man, so they cannot be treated exactly like any other man.


I'm going to strap unremovable a nuke to myself, and go trough life with a detonator in my hand.
B.t.w - did I mention that I work right next to the kindergaden your kids go to? No?

Well, I'm sure you won't mind if I get totally hammered and go hit on your wife.

You chose to strap the nuke to yourself and bind the detonator to your hand.

Mages are born with magic, they don't chose it and shouldn't be punished because they were born that way.

[KiwiQuiche]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Yes, I would let them free rather then enslaving them all because of what a few would do.

And stop being so dramatic; people without magic can cause horrific acts of chaos, death and wanton destruction; just look at the Exalted March on the Dales. That wasn't caused by mages, but religious stupidity. That death count outstips anything the big bad mages have done, barring the Imperium.

People with magic are FAR more dangerous.
It took armies to defeat the Dales (and the elves started it bvy some accounts, so?)

No, mages can be killed by other people just as easily. Hawke can easilly kill a hostile mage on her own as a warrior without any templar abilities. Mages are 'unstoppable killing machines' if they do go loony. They can be killed via a sword in the gut or an arrow in the head just as easily as the next person. Also, a madma with an axe can easily kill dozens of people on their own without magic. They can be as dangerous as a mage; they simply use different tools.

Fluff >>>>>> game balance.

Fluff-wise mages, and especially abominations are FAR more dangerous and powerfull than they are in the game.

And no, a madman with an axe cannto be as dangerous as a mage. Unless that madman can mind-control, tear the veil, summon demons and raise an entire army of undead?

Maybe the Chantry should have left the elves alone then, rather than fly into a righteous religious spaz and attack them because they wouldn't believe in their Maker. The Chantry were the ones who started it, as they kept on butting in on the elves lives when they were told they wanted to be left alone.

They can still kill a crapton of people on their own without magical aid.

[KiwiQuiche]

Emzamination wrote...

When the mages gain their freedom, they will kill us, along with the Divine and all the faithful. Every single mage, including the witch morrigan is now an enemy of Thedas.The order must move quickly-- The mages are relentless, if they are not all destroyed, there will be civil war without end.

Do what must be done Templar bretheren, do not hesitate, show no mercy, only then will you have gained the maker's favor.

Where is this Maker hiding so I can burn him at the stake like my magi ancestors did to his harlot of a wife all those centuries ago?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Orsino should never have needed to resort to blood magic. Meredith should never have put him in that position to begin with.

I think Anders was extremely justified. The Chantry is directly at fault for the way mages are treated. He was not being "retaliatory", no. He was striking the first blow. A blow that, in my opinion, needed to be struck.

Meredith is not justfied because she was executing mages for a crime they had not committed. If she wanted to punish the guilty party, she could've simply killed Anders herself, but she didn't.

Love how the mage supporters just keep repeating the same mantra over and over and over:

The mages are not reposnsible for their actions: the templars/Chantry pushed/forced them.

Every single time a mage fraks up they just keep shifting the blame away.
It's alaways the same with you people.
It's always "the tmepalrs pushed them into X".
But you never bother to think what pushed the tempalrs into Y.
Well two can play that game.

Mages are to blame for everything. EVERYTHING (including the JFK shooting).
Every thing every tempalr ever did was because of mages being mages.
Their condition FORCED them to.

Templars are the Cahtnry and in the right and justified in everything they do. Mages are the root of all problems.

[KiwiQuiche]

Well, I'm a mage supporter and I think Orsino was a ****** and killed him for his stupidity. Same with that hooker bloodmage and that loony-ass Quintin and Grace.

I have no regrets killing them because they had gone crazy and needed to be put down. Just as Alrik and Meredith needed to be put down. Because they were an obvious threat who have actually done harm.

So no, the 'mage supporters' don't all have the same mantra. :|

[The Elder King]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Where is this Maker hiding so I can burn him at the stake like my magi ancestors did to his harlot of a wife all those centuries ago?

Then people ask why other people think that mages will return to be oppressors (I'm not saying they necessarily will, though the option is possible) I couldn'r care less about the Maker, but Andraste was fighting for the freedom of million of slaves, aginst the magister that, sacrificed hundreds (if not thousands) of slaves to perform the magic to reach the Fade, and then unleashed the Blight on Thedas.

[KiwiQuiche]

hhh89 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Where is this Maker hiding so I can burn him at the stake like my magi ancestors did to his harlot of a wife all those centuries ago?

Then people ask why other people think that mages will return to be oppressors (I'm not saying they necessarily will, though the option is possible) I couldn'r care less about the Maker, but Andraste was fighting for the freedom of million of slaves, aginst the magister that, sacrificed hundreds (if not thousands) of slaves to perform the magic to reach the Fade, and then unleashed the Blight on Thedas.

It was a joke, bro, on Andraste's relationship status.

[The Elder King]

Plaintiff wrote...


I consider the Chantry generally, and Elthina in particular, as being complicit in the oppression of the mages, and I think she deserves what she gets. I know a lot of people perceive her as sympathetic to the mages, or at least neutral, but I disagree. I think she was simply trying to maintain a status quo that I view as both fundamentally flawed and morally wrong. She had the power to improve the situation in Kirkwall, but she spent the better part of a decade wringing her hands and staring at her navel. I don't think there's any excuse for that.

I've yet to find any evidence of this, in the game that she had the power to improve the situation in Kirkwall. Even if she had the power to remove Meredith from ther post (which I sincerely don't know if it's possible, though it seems plausible), that doesn't means she has really the power to stop Meredith in more way than acting as a diplomat between her and Orsino. People often forgot the power that the templars held in Kirkwall. They have almost unlimited power. Neither the Viscount could go against them. And even if she had the power to strip Meredith off her title, we don't have a clue if she has the power to order how the templars should act, or even better, if she has the power to improve the  situation of mages in Kirkwall.
That doesn't mean she shouldn't have tried to stop Meredith. That means she has flaws, that could lead you to dislike or hate her(I don't think there neither her or Orsino, Meredith and Dumar are good),but saying that she has an anti-mage stance is simply ridicolous. By your logic, the majority of the peole in Thedas are anti-mage and should be killed. Congratulation in defending the southern Thedas with that few people
And the templars in Kirkwall could very well say that she has a pro-mage stance. So she is considered and anti-mage for the mages and pro-mages for the templars. I guess she had two personalities.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Orsino should never have needed to resort to blood magic. Meredith should never have put him in that position to begin with.

I think Anders was extremely justified. The Chantry is directly at fault for the way mages are treated. He was not being "retaliatory", no. He was striking the first blow. A blow that, in my opinion, needed to be struck.

Meredith is not justfied because she was executing mages for a crime they had not committed. If she wanted to punish the guilty party, she could've simply killed Anders herself, but she didn't.

Love how the mage supporters just keep repeating the same mantra over and over and over:

The mages are not reposnsible for their actions: the templars/Chantry pushed/forced them.

Every single time a mage fraks up they just keep shifting the blame away.
It's alaways the same with you people.
It's always "the tmepalrs pushed them into X".
But you never bother to think what pushed the tempalrs into Y.
Well two can play that game.

Mages are to blame for everything. EVERYTHING (including the JFK shooting).
Every thing every tempalr ever did was because of mages being mages.
Their condition FORCED them to.

Templars are the Cahtnry and in the right and justified in everything they do. Mages are the root of all problems.

I'm not defending Orsino. His actions were wrong, but they are not relevent to why Meredith is at fault.

[The Elder King]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Where is this Maker hiding so I can burn him at the stake like my magi ancestors did to his harlot of a wife all those centuries ago?

Then people ask why other people think that mages will return to be oppressors (I'm not saying they necessarily will, though the option is possible) I couldn'r care less about the Maker, but Andraste was fighting for the freedom of million of slaves, aginst the magister that, sacrificed hundreds (if not thousands) of slaves to perform the magic to reach the Fade, and then unleashed the Blight on Thedas.

It was a joke, bro, on Andraste's relationship status.

I apologize. I was too focused on the "burn him at the stake" part.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And so as the Inquisitor, I shall come up with a plan to do so, when I have a decent picture of the situation.

You could follow the model Aldenon the Wise sought to implement in his time - creating a kingdom of equality.

Did Aldenon present explanations on how to make mages live in a society together with non-mages, or he just said "everyone must be equals" ?

[KiwiQuiche]

hhh89 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Where is this Maker hiding so I can burn him at the stake like my magi ancestors did to his harlot of a wife all those centuries ago?

Then people ask why other people think that mages will return to be oppressors (I'm not saying they necessarily will, though the option is possible) I couldn'r care less about the Maker, but Andraste was fighting for the freedom of million of slaves, aginst the magister that, sacrificed hundreds (if not thousands) of slaves to perform the magic to reach the Fade, and then unleashed the Blight on Thedas.

It was a joke, bro, on Andraste's relationship status.

I apologize. I was too focused on the "burn him at the stake" part.

Yes for some reason the words "burn" and "at the stake" tend to distract people. Need to go back to some ol' fashioned stoning.

[The Elder King]

KiwiQuiche wrote...



Yes for some reason the words "burn" and "at the stake" tend to distract people. Need to go back to some ol' fashioned stoning.

Don't worry about that. I'd have reacted the same way with whatever form of killing execution you'd have proposed.

[Terrorize69]

Mages should rule the land but Templars should be there body guards. Mages are the Makers chosen children, born with the gift to see his world, chosen. They should be revered, walking symbols of all the Maker created.

[The Elder King]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Mages should rule the land but Templars should be there body guards. Mages are the Makers chosen children, born with the gift to see his world, chosen. They should be revered, walking symbols of all the Maker created.

Is this a joke? (you made one yesterday, so I prefer to ask before responding to your post).

[Terrorize69]

hhh89 wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Mages should rule the land but Templars should be there body guards. Mages are the Makers chosen children, born with the gift to see his world, chosen. They should be revered, walking symbols of all the Maker created.

Is this a joke? (you made one yesterday, so I prefer to ask before responding to your post).

Nope

The Chantry is meant to represent the Maker and Andrastes teachings, but why use non magical folk to do that, when Mages are the living embodiment of everything the Maker is and has done.