656 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

Terrorize69 wrote...



The Chantry is meant to represent the Maker and Andrastes teachings, but why use non magical folk to do that, when Mages are the living embodiment of everything the Maker is and has done.

You met the Maker? I didn't know if was possible in DAO and DA2.
And considering Andraste's teachings, the only think that she said about magic is that it that it shouldn't rule over men. Even if the Chantry will allow complete freedom, they'll never allow mages to became the ruling class. And I doubt that this is something that the common folk (without considering the the current nobles, which will be obviously against it) will like much. You're understimating the fear of magic and the Tevinter Imperium example in the common folk
And I could agree with this. Having the mages as the sole rules will make the chances of a second Tevinter Imperium really high. There are a lot of Chantry's opinons and ideals which I think aren't right, but I see nothing wrong with this. A mage king is not objectively better than a non-mage king.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages aren't the same as any other man, so they cannot be treated exactly like any other man.


I'm going to strap unremovable a nuke to myself, and go trough life with a detonator in my hand.
B.t.w - did I mention that I work right next to the kindergaden your kids go to? No?

Well, I'm sure you won't mind if I get totally hammered and go hit on your wife.

You chose to strap the nuke to yourself and bind the detonator to your hand.

Mages are born with magic, they don't chose it and shouldn't be punished because they were born that way.

Which is irrelevant.

You wouldn't be stoping that man because he choose to do that, you would be stopping him because he was dangerous. How he got that nuke is immaterial to the issue.

Being born with it or strapping it to himself - it still doesn't change the fact that it is a nuke and that it is dangerous.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Maybe the Chantry should have left the elves alone then, rather than fly into a righteous religious spaz and attack them because they wouldn't believe in their Maker. The Chantry were the ones who started it, as they kept on butting in on the elves lives when they were told they wanted to be left alone.

Proof would be nice, since ..you know. There are different accounts of who started teh war.

They can still kill a crapton of people on their own without magical aid.

Which brings us back to the nuke scenario.
I can kill poeple without a nuke too. Heck, just running around town with a pistol I can kill poeple.

So you would be perfectly OK with me running aroudn town a nuke then? Or heavy, military-grade weapons and explosives? Drive around in an armed tank?
After all, why shouldn't I have the freedom to own a tank?

Not to mention, being at risk of becoming possesed regardless of my intentions/will?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:29 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages aren't the same as any other man, so they cannot be treated exactly like any other man.


I'm going to strap unremovable a nuke to myself, and go trough life with a detonator in my hand.
B.t.w - did I mention that I work right next to the kindergaden your kids go to? No?

Well, I'm sure you won't mind if I get totally hammered and go hit on your wife.

You chose to strap the nuke to yourself and bind the detonator to your hand.

Mages are born with magic, they don't chose it and shouldn't be punished because they were born that way.

Which is irrelevant.

You wouldn't be stoping that man because he choose to do that, you would be stopping him because he was dangerous. How he got that nuke is immaterial to the issue.

Being born with it or strapping it to himself - it still doesn't change the fact that it is a nuke and that it is dangerous.

It is completely relevant.

Mages don't wander about with fireballs in their hands and walk into schools with lightning bolts flaring off their bodies.

No, how you got the nuke is relevant as well; you have a deadly weapon and are walking about with it in a manner that will obviously cause harm. Mages don't continuiously have spells like firestorm and cone of cold stuck to them. Same with people with swords and bows and arrows, how they keep them at their sides/back and not at the ready so they don't accidentally injure someone.

Mages must consiously use their skill, the same way someone must draw their sword in order to attack. It's dangerous, but so is even some one unarmed. However you can do things to not be dangerous, such as sheathing your sword, not casting spells when they aren't needed and leaving your nuke in a safe place and hiding the detonator while you are away.

[Terrorize69]

hhh89 wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...



The Chantry is meant to represent the Maker and Andrastes teachings, but why use non magical folk to do that, when Mages are the living embodiment of everything the Maker is and has done.

You met the Maker? I didn't know if was possible in DAO and DA2.
And considering Andraste's teachings, the only think that she said about magic is that it that it shouldn't rule over men. Even if the Chantry will allow complete freedom, they'll never allow mages to became the ruling class. And I doubt that this is something that the common folk (without considering the the current nobles, which will be obviously against it) will like much. You're understimating the fear of magic and the Tevinter Imperium example in the common folk
And I could agree with this. Having the mages as the sole rules will make the chances of a second Tevinter Imperium really high. There are a lot of Chantry's opinons and ideals which I think aren't right, but I see nothing wrong with this. A mage king is not objectively better than a non-mage king.

Actually, I have, everytime I meet a mage I meet the image of himself. The Chantry and the Order choose how to understand Andrastes words and teachings, in a way they would place them in power, and the common people follow the Chantry because they believe they know the Makers wishes.

All dependings on how you understand Andrastes teachings, you could take it that Mages are reflections of the Maker in Mortal form. They have access to the Makers realm, they can communicate with the Makers first children, they can shape the fade (well some can) and they can preform feats that one would think only a god can do.

[Lotion Soronarr]

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And so as the Inquisitor, I shall come up with a plan to do so, when I have a decent picture of the situation.

You could follow the model Aldenon the Wise sought to implement in his time - creating a kingdom of equality.

Did Aldenon present explanations on how to make mages live in a society together with non-mages, or he just said "everyone must be equals" ?

No.

Like politicians, he talks of goals and a perfect future, without ANY plan or idea how to actually get there.


"Elect me and in 10 years I shall fix our economy! The country will be strong again. Free healtcare. Everyone will own a big house and two cars! No taxes!"

"Sir, how exactly do you plan to fix the economy? And how will you give free healtcare without taxes?"

"Erm...look there, It's Superman!!!!!"  *runs*

[KiwiQuiche]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Which brings us back to the nuke scenario.
I can kill poeple without a nuke too. Heck, just running around town with a pistol I can kill poeple.

So you would be perfectly OK with me running aroudn town a nuke then? Or heavy, military-grade weapons and explosives? Drive around in an armed tank?
After all, why shouldn't I have the freedom to own a tank?

Not to mention, being at risk of becoming possesed regardless of my intentions/will?

No, I wouldn't.

I'm fine if you carry a pistol/weapons around, as long as you keep it for defense/to protect yourself and kin from harm. I'm okay with that.

Drive in an armed tank? I'm chill with that too, as long as you aren't causing damage or trying to run people over.

It all boils down to how you use it, for good and ill.

You can avoid possession as long as you aren't a moron or power-hungry, such as Bethany who never had Circle enslavement but even she knew fooling around with demons was daft. It all depends on the person, not the fact they were born by default.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:33 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages aren't the same as any other man, so they cannot be treated exactly like any other man.


I'm going to strap unremovable a nuke to myself, and go trough life with a detonator in my hand.
B.t.w - did I mention that I work right next to the kindergaden your kids go to? No?

Well, I'm sure you won't mind if I get totally hammered and go hit on your wife.

You chose to strap the nuke to yourself and bind the detonator to your hand.

Mages are born with magic, they don't chose it and shouldn't be punished because they were born that way.

Which is irrelevant.

You wouldn't be stoping that man because he choose to do that, you would be stopping him because he was dangerous. How he got that nuke is immaterial to the issue.

Being born with it or strapping it to himself - it still doesn't change the fact that it is a nuke and that it is dangerous.

It is completely relevant.

Mages don't wander about with fireballs in their hands and walk into schools with lightning bolts flaring off their bodies.

No, how you got the nuke is relevant as well; you have a deadly weapon and are walking about with it in a manner that will obviously cause harm. Mages don't continuiously have spells like firestorm and cone of cold stuck to them. Same with people with swords and bows and arrows, how they keep them at their sides/back and not at the ready so they don't accidentally injure someone.

Mages must consiously use their skill, the same way someone must draw their sword in order to attack. It's dangerous, but so is even some one unarmed. However you can do things to not be dangerous, such as sheathing your sword, not casting spells when they aren't needed and leaving your nuke in a safe place and hiding the detonator while you are away.

The potential exists. /nuff said.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
You chose to strap the nuke to yourself and bind the detonator to your hand.

Mages are born with magic, they don't chose it and shouldn't be punished because they were born that way.

Which is irrelevant.

You wouldn't be stoping that man because he choose to do that, you would be stopping him because he was dangerous. How he got that nuke is immaterial to the issue.

Being born with it or strapping it to himself - it still doesn't change the fact that it is a nuke and that it is dangerous.

It is completely relevant.

Mages don't wander about with fireballs in their hands and walk into schools with lightning bolts flaring off their bodies.

No, how you got the nuke is relevant as well; you have a deadly weapon and are walking about with it in a manner that will obviously cause harm. Mages don't continuiously have spells like firestorm and cone of cold stuck to them. Same with people with swords and bows and arrows, how they keep them at their sides/back and not at the ready so they don't accidentally injure someone.

Mages must consiously use their skill, the same way someone must draw their sword in order to attack. It's dangerous, but so is even some one unarmed. However you can do things to not be dangerous, such as sheathing your sword, not casting spells when they aren't needed and leaving your nuke in a safe place and hiding the detonator while you are away.

It is compeltely irrelevant.

Intentions are not quantifiable or known. They are a useless metric. Danger is not.

You do not a stop a guy with C4 because of his personality - you stop it because of the bomb.

If a man with the nuke doesn't press the trigger, he won't cause harm, now will he? So why do you then condemn him when you can't prove he WILL cause harm?

Also mages have acess to their magic at all times, so no, they can't put their "magic" away. Their detonator is always in their hands. Always. And worse of all, there's a second pair of fingers that can press it (demons).

[Terrorize69]

Legatus Arianus wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages aren't the same as any other man, so they cannot be treated exactly like any other man.


I'm going to strap unremovable a nuke to myself, and go trough life with a detonator in my hand.
B.t.w - did I mention that I work right next to the kindergaden your kids go to? No?

Well, I'm sure you won't mind if I get totally hammered and go hit on your wife.

You chose to strap the nuke to yourself and bind the detonator to your hand.

Mages are born with magic, they don't chose it and shouldn't be punished because they were born that way.

Which is irrelevant.

You wouldn't be stoping that man because he choose to do that, you would be stopping him because he was dangerous. How he got that nuke is immaterial to the issue.

Being born with it or strapping it to himself - it still doesn't change the fact that it is a nuke and that it is dangerous.

It is completely relevant.

Mages don't wander about with fireballs in their hands and walk into schools with lightning bolts flaring off their bodies.

No, how you got the nuke is relevant as well; you have a deadly weapon and are walking about with it in a manner that will obviously cause harm. Mages don't continuiously have spells like firestorm and cone of cold stuck to them. Same with people with swords and bows and arrows, how they keep them at their sides/back and not at the ready so they don't accidentally injure someone.

Mages must consiously use their skill, the same way someone must draw their sword in order to attack. It's dangerous, but so is even some one unarmed. However you can do things to not be dangerous, such as sheathing your sword, not casting spells when they aren't needed and leaving your nuke in a safe place and hiding the detonator while you are away.

The potential exists. /nuff said.

Potential exists in all.

[KiwiQuiche]

Legatus Arianus wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

It is completely relevant.

Mages don't wander about with fireballs in their hands and walk into schools with lightning bolts flaring off their bodies.

No, how you got the nuke is relevant as well; you have a deadly weapon and are walking about with it in a manner that will obviously cause harm. Mages don't continuiously have spells like firestorm and cone of cold stuck to them. Same with people with swords and bows and arrows, how they keep them at their sides/back and not at the ready so they don't accidentally injure someone.

Mages must consiously use their skill, the same way someone must draw their sword in order to attack. It's dangerous, but so is even some one unarmed. However you can do things to not be dangerous, such as sheathing your sword, not casting spells when they aren't needed and leaving your nuke in a safe place and hiding the detonator while you are away.

The potential exists. /nuff said.

So we should cage people up simply because they have the potential to be dangerous? That's stupid, everyone has the potential to be dangerous. Guess we all need to be locked up for life for the possiblity we may do something bad.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It is compeltely irrelevant.

Intentions are not quantifiable or known. They are a useless metric. Danger is not.

You do not a stop a guy with C4 because of his personality - you stop it because of the bomb.

If
a man with the nuke doesn't press the trigger, he won't cause harm, now
will he? So why do you then condemn him when you can't prove he
WILL cause harm?

Also mages have acess to their magic at all
times, so no, they can't put their "magic" away. Their detonator is
always in their hands. Always. And worse of all, there's a second pair
of fingers that can press it (demons).

Missing point.

He wasn't born with the ability to turn his body into C4 and if he did he shouldn't be punished because he may harm someone for something he didn't cause. He had to go buy that bomb, he wasn't born with it like mages are born with the abilities they have.

So we should lobotomize mages all simply because they may be dangerous?

[The Elder King]

Terrorize69 wrote...


Actually, I have, everytime I meet a mage I meet the image of himself. The Chantry and the Order choose how to understand Andrastes words and teachings, in a way they would place them in power, and the common people follow the Chantry because they believe they know the Makers wishes.

All dependings on how you understand Andrastes teachings, you could take it that Mages are reflections of the Maker in Mortal form. They have access to the Makers realm, they can communicate with the Makers first children, they can shape the fade (well some can) and they can preform feats that one would think only a god can do.

Andraste explicitely said that magic should not rule over them. This could mean only one thing: that she didn't want mages to be the ruling class. Are you seriously saying that she though that mages should be the ruling class?
The Chantry interpreted her teachings in saying that mages should be put in Circles. She never said that. But on the ruling issue, she was explicitely said that. Unless you're saying that that phrase is false. But we have no reason to believe that Andraste didn't say that phrase. Find me a source of an opposite theory in the lore of DA.
And about the bolded part, first, I'd like to point out that according to lore humans didn't know magic before the Old Gods taught them magic. This can be false, of course, but there is no evidence in believing that the Maker granted humans magic.

[Patchwork]

I'm a mage supporter but while the Chantry have blown things out of proportion to serve their own interests they're not wrong about the dangers of magic.

Anders said he blew up the Chantry to prevent compromise the thing is wars always end with some sort of compromise it's how you get peace. The difference between being the winner or the loser is whether you're compromising from a place of strength or weakness.

Given the distrust the people have towards magic mages would be wise to sue for peace while their winning.

After mages don armour and learn how to use weapons in conjunction with spells templars lose a lot of advantage. They will get desperate and the fighting will get ugly fast. If mages resort to blood magic they prove the Chantry right. Abominations, mind control, the return to of the magister ruling class are things that worry people about mage freedom.

It may be unfair but as the ones who have to prove themselves trustworthy mages have to be the ones who compromise.

The Circle is a great place for magelets to learn to control their magic. It's great for the academia mage who has no interest in the outside world or just a mage who wants a safe place to call home.

The system even needs people like templars who can and will kill the mages that turn. Dalish hunters will kill their Keeper if they have to but that's a different situation than a mage who was born into a family of farmers.

What mages don't need is a religion that demonises them just for the way they were born.

Modifié par Ser Bard, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:16 .

[The Elder King]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

hhh89 wrote...


Did Aldenon present explanations on how to make mages live in a society together with non-mages, or he just said "everyone must be equals" ?

No.

Like politicians, he talks of goals and a perfect future, without ANY plan or idea how to actually get there.


"Elect me and in 10 years I shall fix our economy! The country will be strong again. Free healtcare. Everyone will own a big house and two cars! No taxes!"

"Sir, how exactly do you plan to fix the economy? And how will you give free healtcare without taxes?"

"Erm...look there, It's Superman!!!!!"  *runs*

Oh, I know that. Regardless of my opinion about mages and the freedom issue, I respect more people (of both side) that propose a model with rules and how make things work, than people who simply say propose an ideal society, without the tools for making said society works.

[EmperorSahlertz]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Missing point.

He wasn't born with the ability to turn his body into C4 and if he did he shouldn't be punished because he may harm someone for something he didn't cause. He had to go buy that bomb, he wasn't born with it like mages are born with the abilities they have.

So we should lobotomize mages all simply because they may be dangerous?

Not because they may be dangerous. Because they ARE dangerous. Still lobotomizing the lot of them is a bit too drastic. Circles are a better alternative.

[KiwiQuiche]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Missing point.

He wasn't born with the ability to turn his body into C4 and if he did he shouldn't be punished because he may harm someone for something he didn't cause. He had to go buy that bomb, he wasn't born with it like mages are born with the abilities they have.

So we should lobotomize mages all simply because they may be dangerous?

Not because they may be dangerous. Because they ARE dangerous. Still lobotomizing the lot of them is a bit too drastic. Circles are a better alternative.

Still, taking them against their will from their families, locking them up for all their life, and killing any who aren't in the Circle is a horrible pratice and it needs to be stopped.

I'm not against some practices; after all, Mages do need to learn how to protect themselves from demons and whatnot. Bethany learned that from her father, so obviously Circles aren't the only place you can learn.

I would be fine if Circles were moreso a simple 'boarding school' where you can go and learn from fellow users, but can leave if you so wish, without the threat of being killed or being lobotomized. Or getting rid of the "mages are Ajsjksgl;sdj" that the Chantry vomits out all the time.

[MisterJB]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
So we should cage people up simply because they have the potential to be dangerous? That's stupid, everyone has the potential to be dangerous. Guess we all need to be locked up for life for the possiblity we may do something bad.

No but we enforce gun control exactly because people have the potential to be dangerous. Sure, people can kill with their bare hands but a person driving a tank has the potential to cause much greater devastation so, we keep tanks away from civillians lest they blow up a neighborhood because their wife is cheating on them. 
You can't take magic away from mages. And that's not even taking the demons into account.

He wasn't born with the ability to turn his body into C4 and if he did he shouldn't be punished because he may harm someone for something he didn't cause. He had to go buy that bomb, he wasn't born with it like mages are born with the abilities they have.

So we should lobotomize mages all simply because they may be dangerous?

No but we shouldn't also pretend they're the same as mundanes. They are not.
Mages didn't choose to be born with magic but neither did mundanes choose to be born in a world where there is a class of people with such propensity for death and destruction. Don't mundanes deserve to live their lives as they choose without fearing if that day is the day the mage who lives next door turns into an abomination?

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 octobre 2012 - 12:08 .

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aldenon the Wise didn't have the opportunity to make his dream a reality, because Calenhad betrayed him. The Mage rebellion can accomplish what he couldn't, now that mages have gained autonomy from the Chantry and the templars. As long as they manage to keep their freedom from the Seekers and the templars hunting them down, I think there's a possibility of establishing a society where mages and non-mages can live together. I think it's worth the effort to try to make Aldenon's dream a reality.

Tevinter disproves this I'm all for idealism but realistically mages and mundanes can not coexist on the same terms the mages need the Templars to keep them in check the best you can hope for is compromize and and overhall of the current system.

The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, the Rivaini, and even the morally bankrupt society of Haven disprove the idea that free mages will automatically try to emulate Tevinter.

[KiwiQuiche]

MisterJB wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
So we should cage people up simply because they have the potential to be dangerous? That's stupid, everyone has the potential to be dangerous. Guess we all need to be locked up for life for the possiblity we may do something bad.

No but we enforce gun control exactly because people have the potential to be dangerous. Sure, people can kill with their bare hands but a person driving a tank has the potential to cause much greater devastation so, we keep tanks away from civillians lest they blow up a neighborhood because their wife is cheating on them. 
You can't take magic away from mages. And that's not even taking the demons into account.

He wasn't born with the ability to turn his body into C4 and if he did he shouldn't be punished because he may harm someone for something he didn't cause. He had to go buy that bomb, he wasn't born with it like mages are born with the abilities they have.

So we should lobotomize mages all simply because they may be dangerous?

No but we shouldn't also pretend they're the same as mundanes. They are not.
Mages didn't choose to be born with magic but neither did mundanes choose to be born in a world where there is a class of people with such propensity for death and destruction. Don't mundanes deserve to live their lives as they choose without fearing if that day is the day the mage who lives next door turns into an abomination?

In the end, mages are still people and deserve to be free and not chained up like animals all their lives.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, the Rivaini, and even the morally bankrupt society of Haven disprove the idea that free mages will automatically try to emulate Tevinter.

The Dalish where only mages are ellectable for any sort of executive power? Rivain where witches allow themselves to be possessed and when they destroy a village that is seen as a natural disaster rather than a crime commited by someone who should answer for her actions? And Avvar, Chasing and Haven who we know virtually nothing about how they conduct their day to day lives.

None of this examples disproves the need for the Templars. No, maybe free mages doesn't automatically equal Tevinter but none of these "societies" serve as an example of a state where mages and mundanes are equal.

[MisterJB]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
In the end, mages are still people and deserve to be free and not chained up like animals all their lives.

A person's freedom ends when they threaten another's. I'm not saying "Chain them!". I'm saying separate them from the lager population humanely.
They are kept in a luxurious tower where they are fed, clothed, educated and live amongst their own people. Sure; it's not perfect, abuses do happen; but is the Circle system really so bad?

[Lotion Soronarr]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
So we should cage people up simply because they have the potential to be dangerous? That's stupid, everyone has the potential to be dangerous. Guess we all need to be locked up for life for the possiblity we may do something bad.[/quote ]

Comparisons beween normal people and mages are pointless.

You can't lock up normal people because they are 99% of population. Such an approach simply would not work.

Also, normal people don't have even remotely the same danger potential.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It is compeltely irrelevant.

Intentions are not quantifiable or known. They are a useless metric. Danger is not.
You do not a stop a guy with C4 because of his personality - you stop it because of the bomb.

If a man with the nuke doesn't press the trigger, he won't cause harm, now
will he? So why do you then condemn him when you can't prove he
WILL cause harm?

Also mages have acess to their magic at all times, so no, they can't put their "magic" away. Their detonator is
always in their hands. Always. And worse of all, there's a second pair of fingers that can press it (demons).

Missing point.

He wasn't born with the ability to turn his body into C4 and if he did he shouldn't be punished because he may harm someone for something he didn't cause. He had to go buy that bomb, he wasn't born with it like mages are born with the abilities they have.

So we should lobotomize mages all simply because they may be dangerous?

No, you are the one missing the point.

It's not about "pusnihsment".
"Deserve" is irrelevant. Will is irrelevant. Wanting is irrelevant.

All of those things are immaterial and don't change the central fact - mages are a danger to themselves and others.


And I assume if that hypothetical nuke man WAS born with a bomb, you'd be fine with him walking the streets of your town? Fine with him going to a pub and getting drunk?
Fine with him being exposed to all the irritations and things that can make a man act irrational or stupid?

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No.

Like politicians, he talks of goals and a perfect future, without ANY plan or idea how to actually get there.

"Elect me and in 10 years I shall fix our economy! The country will be strong again. Free healtcare. Everyone will own a big house and two cars! No taxes!"

"Sir, how exactly do you plan to fix the economy? And how will you give free healtcare without taxes?"

"Erm...look there, It's Superman!!!!!"  *runs*

The codex never covered Aldenon's plans, only his goal. A plethora of pro-mage people have proposed alternatives to the Chantry controlled Circles, however. I doubt their proposals will dissuade you, or any other pro-templar fans, from your point of view, so this discussion becomes a moot point.

Both sides will never agree on this issue.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ser Bard wrote...
Anders said he blew up the Chantry to prevent compromise the thing is wars always end with some sort of compromise it's how you get peace. The difference between being the winner or the loser is whether you're compromising from a place of strength or weakness.

You mean beside those wars that end with total anihilation of one side or uncoditional surrender.

[KiwiQuiche]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
So we should cage people up simply because they have the potential to be dangerous? That's stupid, everyone has the potential to be dangerous. Guess we all need to be locked up for life for the possiblity we may do something bad.[/quote ]

Comparisons beween normal people and mages are pointless.

You can't lock up normal people because they are 99% of population. Such an approach simply would not work.

Also, normal people don't have even remotely the same danger potential.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It is compeltely irrelevant.

Intentions are not quantifiable or known. They are a useless metric. Danger is not.
You do not a stop a guy with C4 because of his personality - you stop it because of the bomb.

If a man with the nuke doesn't press the trigger, he won't cause harm, now
will he? So why do you then condemn him when you can't prove he
WILL cause harm?

Also mages have acess to their magic at all times, so no, they can't put their "magic" away. Their detonator is
always in their hands. Always. And worse of all, there's a second pair of fingers that can press it (demons).

Missing point.

He wasn't born with the ability to turn his body into C4 and if he did he shouldn't be punished because he may harm someone for something he didn't cause. He had to go buy that bomb, he wasn't born with it like mages are born with the abilities they have.

So we should lobotomize mages all simply because they may be dangerous?

No, you are the one missing the point.

It's not about "pusnihsment".
"Deserve" is irrelevant. Will is irrelevant. Wanting is irrelevant.

All of those things are immaterial and don't change the central fact - mages are a danger to themselves and others.


And I assume if that hypothetical nuke man WAS born with a bomb, you'd be fine with him walking the streets of your town? Fine with him going to a pub and getting drunk?
Fine with him being exposed to all the irritations and things that can make a man act irrational or stupid?

Well I'm of the opinion alchohol needs to be banned, in default.

He still has a right to a life, not stuck in a gilded cage because he was born the way he is.

MisterJB wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
In the end, mages are still people and deserve to be free and not chained up like animals all their lives.

A
person's freedom ends when they threaten another's. I'm not saying
"Chain them!". I'm saying separate them from the lager population
humanely.
They are kept in a luxurious tower where they are fed,
clothed, educated and live amongst their own people. Sure; it's not
perfect, abuses do happen; but is the Circle system really so bad?

It is still oppressive and slavish. They are taken from their homes by force, feared by the general due to progaganda, and killed or lobotomized if they try to escape.