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[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aldenon the Wise didn't have the opportunity to make his dream a reality, because Calenhad betrayed him. The Mage rebellion can accomplish what he couldn't, now that mages have gained autonomy from the Chantry and the templars. As long as they manage to keep their freedom from the Seekers and the templars hunting them down, I think there's a possibility of establishing a society where mages and non-mages can live together. I think it's worth the effort to try to make Aldenon's dream a reality.

Tevinter disproves this I'm all for idealism but realistically mages and mundanes can not coexist on the same terms the mages need the Templars to keep them in check the best you can hope for is compromize and and overhall of the current system.

The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, the Rivaini, and even the morally bankrupt society of Haven disprove the idea that free mages will automatically try to emulate Tevinter.

Except that in all the cases you mention, with the only exception being Rivain, the mages rule... Only Rivain has, from what we have heard, managed to keep mages free, but not in a ruling position. But we don't know nearly enough about Rivaini society to coe to any substantial conclusions.

[MisterJB]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
It is still oppressive and slavish. They are taken from their homes by force, feared by the general due to progaganda, and killed or lobotomized if they try to escape.

Actually, Anders was brought back seven times. It varies from Circle to Circle.
I'm all for templars having less rights over the lives of mages but you can't ask mundanes to simply accept free mages and trust they won't abuse their powers or simply kill people by accident.

[KiwiQuiche]

MisterJB wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
It is still oppressive and slavish. They are taken from their homes by force, feared by the general due to progaganda, and killed or lobotomized if they try to escape.

Actually, Anders was brought back seven times. It varies from Circle to Circle.
I'm all for templars having less rights over the lives of mages but you can't ask mundanes to simply accept free mages and trust they won't abuse their powers or simply kill people by accident.

That is the problem with our current ruling societies of this day; there is extremely little trust and that is fundementally the most important thing in anything type of culture and civilization. Lack of trust breeds all sort of emotions, from paranoia and wariness to outright hate and violence.

In order to combat random violence  and racial hate we need to be able to trust again. The first step to that is to stop alienating others for simply being.

[MisterJB]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
That is the problem with our current ruling societies of this day; there is extremely little trust and that is fundementally the most important thing in anything type of culture and civilization. Lack of trust breeds all sort of emotions, from paranoia and wariness to outright hate and violence.

In order to combat random violence  and racial hate we need to be able to trust again. The first step to that is to stop alienating others for simply being.

Now you're just struglling against the very nature of human beings. It won't happen, ever.

[The Elder King]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...



Except that in all the cases you mention, with the only exception being Rivain, the mages rule... Only Rivain has, from what we have heard, managed to keep mages free, but not in a ruling position. But we don't know nearly enough about Rivaini society to coe to any substantial conclusions.

I'd say that in the dalish system there's no privilege from ruling position (rather, it has a lot fo responsibility), but regardless, it can't work in Andrastian society (on i any non-nomad society, probably) since all the elves are equals, in the way they don't possess much. Almost everything is shared, and the dalish didn't have a lot of personal goods. This system couldn't work in the Southern Thedas nations.
Though I'm interested in how the Keepers teach they apprentice how to control magic and resist the Fade's temptations.

Modifié par hhh89, 24 octobre 2012 - 01:05 .

[KiwiQuiche]

MisterJB wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
That is the problem with our current ruling societies of this day; there is extremely little trust and that is fundementally the most important thing in anything type of culture and civilization. Lack of trust breeds all sort of emotions, from paranoia and wariness to outright hate and violence.

In order to combat random violence  and racial hate we need to be able to trust again. The first step to that is to stop alienating others for simply being.

Now you're just struglling against the very nature of human beings. It won't happen, ever.

Struggling is still better than sitting around doing nothing because it's our "nature"

[MisterJB]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Struggling is still better than sitting around doing nothing because it's our "nature"

I'm not innactive. I acknowledge the failings and limitations of human beings and try to work within those parameters to achieve the best possible result.
It's better than struggle in vain for an unnatainable ideal.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
It is still oppressive and slavish. They are taken from their homes by force, feared by the general due to progaganda, and killed or lobotomized if they try to escape.

Actually, Anders was brought back seven times. It varies from Circle to Circle.
I'm all for templars having less rights over the lives of mages but you can't ask mundanes to simply accept free mages and trust they won't abuse their powers or simply kill people by accident.

That is the problem with our current ruling societies of this day; there is extremely little trust and that is fundementally the most important thing in anything type of culture and civilization. Lack of trust breeds all sort of emotions, from paranoia and wariness to outright hate and violence.

In order to combat random violence  and racial hate we need to be able to trust again. The first step to that is to stop alienating others for simply being.

It's not lack of trust - it's abundance of common sense.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
In the end, mages are still people and deserve to be free and not chained up like animals all their lives.

Newsflash:
Life does not care what anyone "deserves".
Deserving a completely human and subjective concept.

All the people that died because of Connor, anders and all the other mages - did they deserve to die?

[Lotion Soronarr]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No, you are the one missing the point.

It's not about "pusnihsment".
"Deserve" is irrelevant. Will is irrelevant. Wanting is irrelevant.

All of those things are immaterial and don't change the central fact - mages are a danger to themselves and others.


And I assume if that hypothetical nuke man WAS born with a bomb, you'd be fine with him walking the streets of your town? Fine with him going to a pub and getting drunk?
Fine with him being exposed to all the irritations and things that can make a man act irrational or stupid?

Well I'm of the opinion alchohol needs to be banned, in default.

He still has a right to a life, not stuck in a gilded cage because he was born the way he is.

So is that a yes?
You would? Ok, but don't come crying when he blows up your kids and house and firends.

And lastly, just because you are fine, doesn't mean other people should be. I for one would not risk myself and the others.

[Medhia Nox]

I think I would come to peace with the idea - so long as every mage is made public like sexual offenders are today. (in the states) No - I'm not making a comparison - but they're the only people that the police will actually go around and inform normal folks about.

I would not be okay living near a mage - and I would be absolutely pissed if my government didn't police their ability to summon demons... fireballs... or Curses of Mortality.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:44 .

[Xilizhra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
In the end, mages are still people and deserve to be free and not chained up like animals all their lives.

Newsflash:
Life does not care what anyone "deserves".
Deserving a completely human and subjective concept.

All the people that died because of Connor, anders and all the other mages - did they deserve to die?

By your own estimation, it doesn't matter whether they did or not.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, the Rivaini, and even the morally bankrupt society of Haven disprove the idea that free mages will automatically try to emulate Tevinter.

Except that in all the cases you mention, with the only exception being Rivain, the mages rule... Only Rivain has, from what we have heard, managed to keep mages free, but not in a ruling position. But we don't know nearly enough about Rivaini society to coe to any substantial conclusions.

All the cases I mentioned addressed societies with free mages that aren't trying to recreate the Imperium; it was in response to the disingenuous idea that free mages automatically attempt to establish another Tevinter.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, the Rivaini, and even the morally bankrupt society of Haven disprove the idea that free mages will automatically try to emulate Tevinter.

Except that in all the cases you mention, with the only exception being Rivain, the mages rule... Only Rivain has, from what we have heard, managed to keep mages free, but not in a ruling position. But we don't know nearly enough about Rivaini society to coe to any substantial conclusions.

All the cases I mentioned addressed societies with free mages that aren't trying to recreate the Imperium; it was in response to the disingenuous idea that free mages automatically attempt to establish another Tevinter.

None of your mentioned societies are in a state where they can even attempt it, so your point is mood. All of your mentioned societies are also in a state of recession...

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

None of your mentioned societies are in a state where they can even attempt it, so your point is mood. All of your mentioned societies are also in a state of recession...

The Dalish elves had their own nation, and they didn't attempt it. The Rivaini seers live in a kingdom, and they didn't attempt it. The Chasind and the Avvar live in tribes, but I don't see it as a recession, and it doesn't change that they aren't mimicking Tevinter. I don't see how it's moot to point out that there are societies where mages are living alongside non-mages, without trying to emulate the Imperium. I don't see why some people act as though a society with free mages will inevitably lead to Tevinter, when there are a plethora of societies where this isn't the case.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

None of your mentioned societies are in a state where they can even attempt it, so your point is mood. All of your mentioned societies are also in a state of recession...

The Dalish elves had their own nation, and they didn't attempt it.

In the Dales the mages were the exclusive members of the ruling class?

[Terrorize69]

I think all non-mages should be shipped to Tevinter give the mages southern Thedas lol

[Terrorize69]

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

None of your mentioned societies are in a state where they can even attempt it, so your point is mood. All of your mentioned societies are also in a state of recession...

The Dalish elves had their own nation, and they didn't attempt it.

In the Dales the mages were the exclusive members of the ruling class?

All elves back then had magic, so...

[MisterJB]

Terrorize69 wrote...
All elves back then had magic, so...

Nonsense. 
And you're thinking about Arlathan, not the Dales.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Missing point.

He wasn't born with the ability to turn his body into C4 and if he did he shouldn't be punished because he may harm someone for something he didn't cause. He had to go buy that bomb, he wasn't born with it like mages are born with the abilities they have.

So we should lobotomize mages all simply because they may be dangerous?

Not because they may be dangerous. Because they ARE dangerous. Still lobotomizing the lot of them is a bit too drastic. Circles are a better alternative.

Proof they are dangerous. So far im not impressed what a rogue mages have done so far .

[The Elder King]

Terrorize69 wrote...


All elves back then had magic, so...

In the first elven realm. They lost that after being enslaved for centuries by the Imperium. In the second elven realm, the Dales, not all the elves possess magic.

[The Hierophant]

Terrorize69 wrote...

I think all non-mages should be shipped to Tevinter give the mages southern Thedas lol

Then Andraste 2.0 arises from the ashes to combat the evil mageocracy who's severely weakened after it's baby bleeding magisters unwittingly unleashed the lightspawn upon Thedas.

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

In the Dales the mages were the exclusive members of the ruling class?

  

According to Lanaya, the Dales was governed by the nobility.

It doesn't change my original point about how a nation with free mages wasn't trying to emulate the Imperium. Magisters rule in Tevinter, enslaving mages and non-mages alike, with some people who are sacrificed to empower the Magisters. I think it's ludicrous that some people try to claim that free mages will automatically lead to another Imperium, when this clearly isn't the case. I don't see these non-Andrastian societies attempting to emulate the Imperium, even though their mages aren't controlled.

[The Hierophant]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Missing point.

He wasn't born with the ability to turn his body into C4 and if he did he shouldn't be punished because he may harm someone for something he didn't cause. He had to go buy that bomb, he wasn't born with it like mages are born with the abilities they have.

So we should lobotomize mages all simply because they may be dangerous?

Not because they may be dangerous. Because they ARE dangerous. Still lobotomizing the lot of them is a bit too drastic. Circles are a better alternative.

Proof they are dangerous. So far im not impressed what a rogue mages have done so far .

Soldiers keep before being cleared out, The Ferelden Circle after Uldred conquered it, Meredith's sister killing 70 villagers before the Templers killed her, Anders blowing up a church, The Baroness trapping the villagers in the fade. Heck the Imperium used a circle like system complete with Templars to kill demons and abominations.

[Terrorize69]

The Hierophant wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

I think all non-mages should be shipped to Tevinter give the mages southern Thedas lol

Then Andraste 2.0 arises from the ashes to combat the evil mageocracy who's severely weakened after it's baby bleeding magisters unwittingly unleashed the lightspawn upon Thedas.

Nah Leiliana is in love with a mage.