656 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
And if there were any decent tutors available, as opposed to a crappy one sent by Loghain as an assassin, it wouldn't have been a problem either. In fact, things probably would have been fine had Loghain not made an assassination attempt.

Mage is free. Mage has a problem. Mage plays Make-a-Wish foundation with Demon.
The specifics are irrelevant. If it wasn't Loghain, it would be something else eventually.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:23 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
As opposed to locking up people who've never done anything to merit it, yes.

I think the people of Redcliff would have been happier had Isolde just sent Connor to the Circle in the first place.

And if there were any decent tutors available, as opposed to a crappy one sent by Loghain as an assassin, it wouldn't have been a problem either. In fact, things probably would have been fine had Loghain not made an assassination attempt.

Yeah, I'd like some proof of it "being just fine".

You keep saying how good education = no abominations.
Well, we've seen that education means squat in the end. Uldred had great education, didn't he?

So no, you don't get to say "If if weren't for the Chantry/Loghain, the poor mage would never do anything wrong".
He would.
Humans are emotional and impulsive even at best of times.
There are a million schocking and stresfull moments in the life of a normal person, all of which can lead one to act stupidildy. For a mage even moreso.

[Palidane]

And if Mages have to be educated, why not educate them in a circle? Then you have access to more resources, friends, perspectives, and security.

[Shadow Fox]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yes, I would free the mages. They have done no crime aside from being born as they are. They are just locked up because they 'might' become Blood Mages/Abominations/Loonies. That's a completely stupid reason, it's like stuffing someone in prison because they 'might' do a crime, while there is no evidence to prove it. Yes, mages have magic but that is no excuse. It's like caging someone who was born extremely large and strong, because they would cause more damage if they threw a rage, over someone born weak and lanky while they have never displayed agressive behaviour.

In my opinions the Circle is akin to slavery; you take the children from their family by force and never let them met each other agin, lock them up for the majority of their lives, use them only when the Chantry needs them other wise they are kept locked up and lobotomize them if they seem 'weak.'

It's a stupid, cruel policy and I for one will happily cast it down and hopefully something better will come to pass.

so you'd rather risk untrained or possesed mages running amok to cause chaos,death and wanton destruction with nothing capable of stoping them?
The difference between a mage and a mundane is the scale and potenial of destruction is much much larger for a mage.That and a large mundane can be subdued rather easily by other mundanes a mage can only be netrulized easily by Templars,other mages or Dwarves.

Yes, I would let them free rather then enslaving them all because of what a few would do.

And stop being so dramatic; people without magic can cause horrific acts of chaos, death and wanton destruction; just look at the Exalted March on the Dales. That wasn't caused by mages, but religious stupidity. That death count outstips anything the big bad mages have done, barring the Imperium.

No, mages can be killed by other people just as easily. Hawke can easilly kill a hostile mage on her own as a warrior without any templar abilities. Mages aren't 'unstoppable killing machines' if they do go loony. They can be killed via a sword in the gut or an arrow in the head just as easily as the next person. Also, a madman with an axe can easily kill dozens of people on their own without magic. They can be as dangerous as a mage; they simply use different tools.

Then you are a fool.

Wrong one mage can cause just as much destruction as an army of soldiers and they can do it by accident*conner*.

Hawke is a pc they break the rules of the game so the player can feel like a badass name one incident where an out of control mage was put down by a common guard I'll wait.

A man with an axe can be killed by another man with a weapon and when the weapon is taken away they cease to be a threat magic can not be taken away.And are you serious saying an axe can cause as much damage as an inferno,lightning storm,earthquake or blizzard?

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 24 octobre 2012 - 09:28 .

[Plaintiff]

Palidane wrote...

And if Mages have to be educated, why not educate them in a circle? Then you have access to more resources, friends, perspectives, and security.

There is no "security" in the Circle. They are watched constantly by zealots and bigots who have been trained to hate them and are looking for any excuse to kill or lobotomize them. Any "friends" they might make could be taken away at any moment for totally arbitrary reasons.

[MisterJB]

Not every Circle is Kirkwall. Anders escaped from Ferelden seven times and was brought back the seven times and was never beaten by a templar in his life.
In Val-Royeaux, the mages were allowed to visit the city and even buy things for themselves.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 octobre 2012 - 09:32 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
In the end, mages are still people and deserve to be free and not chained up like animals all their lives.

Newsflash:
Life does not care what anyone "deserves".
Deserving a completely human and subjective concept.

All the people that died because of Connor, anders and all the other mages - did they deserve to die?

That was due to human stupidity and Connor was a child. It was also the product of Loghain; he hired Jowan to poison Eamon due to politics crap and it started the whole thing. Of course Jowan was still at fault for doing it, but Connor was a child simply trying to help his father. He doesn't deserve to be killed because of that.

What about all the people living in fear of the coeterie and gangs in Kirkwall? Do they deserve to get killed because they won't bribe off the gangs of nonmages?

MisterJB wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Struggling is still better than sitting around doing nothing because it's our "nature"

I'm
not innactive. I acknowledge the failings and limitations of human
beings and try to work within those parameters to achieve the best
possible result.
It's better than struggle in vain for an unnatainable ideal.

No it is not. It simply seems unnatainable because the Chantry rant on and on about how evil and horrible mages and magic are and have locked them up for nine centuries for being born. It's basicallg ingrained in peoples head that mages are wild and untamed for centuries. The Chantry simply made everything worse and I'm surprised it took this long to blow up in their faces.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yes, I would let them free rather then enslaving them all because of what a few would do.

And
stop being so dramatic; people without magic can cause horrific acts of
chaos, death and wanton destruction; just look at the Exalted March on
the Dales. That wasn't caused by mages, but religious stupidity. That
death count outstips anything the big bad mages have done, barring the
Imperium.

No, mages can be killed by other people just as easily.
Hawke can easilly kill a hostile mage on her own as a warrior without
any templar abilities. Mages aren't 'unstoppable killing machines' if
they do go loony. They can be killed via a sword in the gut or an arrow
in the head just as easily as the next person. Also, a madman with an
axe can easily kill dozens of people on their own without magic. They
can be as dangerous as a mage; they simply use different tools.

Then you are a fool.

Wrong one mage can cause just as much destruction as an army of soldiers and they can do it by accident*conner*.

Hawke
is a pc they break the rules of the game so the player can feel like a
badass name one incident where an out of control mage was put down by a
common guard I'll wait.

A man with an axe can be killed by
another man with a weapon and when the weapon is taken away they cease
to be a threat magic can not be taken away.And are you serious saying an
axe can cause as much damage as an inferno,lightning storm,earthquake
or blizzard?

Connor was a child. He wasn't aware of the repercussions due to lack of education and manipulation as well as the desire to save his father who was dying.

An axe to the head can kill a mage as easilly as anything else. I'm of the opinion that guards need to learn how to kill mages, rather than the Templars being all "lol no" about their abilities. People do tend to do horrible things, so yes some will need killing. Just as thieves and loonies without magic will need to be killed. If the Templars share abilities with normal guards, then that will help deal with it, rather than rounding all those people up and locking them away. People don't seem to get that.

I just think it's wrong to imprision people on the principle of 'they may do bad things'. Seems I'm a minority here.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Not every Circle is Kirkwall.

None of the behaviours I listed are exclusive to Kirkwall at all. They are standard rules for the governing of any Circle that is controlled by the Chantry.

Anders escaped from Ferelden seven times and was brought back the seven times and was never beaten by a templar in his life.

Aneirin ran away once. The templars ran him through, left him for dead, and didn't even have the basic courtesy to tell Wynne what they'd done.

The templars do not get points for not murdering Anders. Refraining from killing people who haven't harmed you or threatened you in any way is basic human decency, and the least that I expect from any person, regardless of their position.

[Zkyire]

Plaintiff wrote...

Palidane wrote...

And if Mages have to be educated, why not educate them in a circle? Then you have access to more resources, friends, perspectives, and security.

There is no "security" in the Circle. They are watched constantly by zealots and bigots who have been trained to hate them and are looking for any excuse to kill or lobotomize them. Any "friends" they might make could be taken away at any moment for totally arbitrary reasons.

Nonsense.

The Templars in the Circle of Ferelden were quite reasonable compared to the ones in Kirkwall.

Don't lump all Templars into one boat.

Modifié par Zkyire, 24 octobre 2012 - 09:34 .

[Shadow Fox]

Plaintiff wrote...

Palidane wrote...

And if Mages have to be educated, why not educate them in a circle? Then you have access to more resources, friends, perspectives, and security.

There is no "security" in the Circle. They are watched constantly by zealots and bigots who have been trained to hate them and are looking for any excuse to kill or lobotomize them. Any "friends" they might make could be taken away at any moment for totally arbitrary reasons.

I'm sure my Tabris Warden would have loved to live in a nice comfy tower with clean clothes,  a warm bed,food and armed guards to make sure  unsavory nobles couldn't just kidnap her to rape her when they pleased.

[The Elder King]

Plaintiff wrote...

Palidane wrote...

And if Mages have to be educated, why not educate them in a circle? Then you have access to more resources, friends, perspectives, and security.

There is no "security" in the Circle. They are watched constantly by zealots and bigots who have been trained to hate them and are looking for any excuse to kill or lobotomize them. Any "friends" they might make could be taken away at any moment for totally arbitrary reasons.

You'd you be fine if the Circle system was completely indipendant from the Chantry, and if the organization who watch over it is composed by mages and non-mages with equal power?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

Palidane wrote...

And if Mages have to be educated, why not educate them in a circle? Then you have access to more resources, friends, perspectives, and security.

There is no "security" in the Circle. They are watched constantly by zealots and bigots who have been trained to hate them and are looking for any excuse to kill or lobotomize them. Any "friends" they might make could be taken away at any moment for totally arbitrary reasons.

Yes, Alistair was seething with hatred for all magekind....

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
None of the behaviours I listed are exclusive to Kirkwall at all. They are standard rules for the governing of any Circle that is controlled by the Chantry.

That's an exageration and you know it. Templars are not looking for reasons to kill or lobomotize mages.
It's illegal to do so after the Harrowing. This rule is so commonly respected that there is actually a special prison for mages who passed their Harrowing but broke the rules.

In Val Royeaux, mages were allowed to visit the city and even buy things. Until Anders commited an act of terrorism, that is. Guess he should have see that coming.

Aneirin ran away once. The templars ran him through, left him for dead, and didn't even have the basic courtesy to tell Wynne what they'd done.

Which doesn't change the fact Anders ran seven times from the very same tower and no one did a thing to him.
I expect Aneirin had the bad luck of being hunted my more overzealous templars; or it was a racial issue; or it was in the days before Knight Commander Greagoir.
The fact that there are detestable templars doesn't mean most are not just decent people who want to feed their families and serve the Maker at the same time.

The templars do not get points for not murdering Anders. Refraining from killing people who haven't harmed you or threatened you in any way is basic human decency, and the least that I expect from any person, regardless of their position

Of course they do. Anders broke the rules seven times. Had he tried that sh*t in Kirkwall under Meredith, he would have been killed or made Tranquil the very first attempt.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 octobre 2012 - 09:52 .

[Plaintiff]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Palidane wrote...

And if Mages have to be educated, why not educate them in a circle? Then you have access to more resources, friends, perspectives, and security.

There is no "security" in the Circle. They are watched constantly by zealots and bigots who have been trained to hate them and are looking for any excuse to kill or lobotomize them. Any "friends" they might make could be taken away at any moment for totally arbitrary reasons.

I'm sure my Tabris Warden would have loved to live in a nice comfy tower with clean clothes,  a warm bed,food and armed guards to make sure  unsavory nobles couldn't just kidnap her to rape her when they pleased.

I didn't see anything about the Ferelden tower that was "comfortable" at all. Also, we know for a damn fact that the Templars are not there to protect the mages from anything, and that rape still occurs. Your Tabris wardn would not be any safer in the Circle. Hell, she might be worse off, because at any moment the Templars could decide "Nope, she's too weak to undergo the Harrowing. Off with her head!"

But that's all fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine, because she has clean clothes.

[KiwiQuiche]

Zkyire wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Palidane wrote...

And if Mages have to be educated, why not educate them in a circle? Then you have access to more resources, friends, perspectives, and security.

There is no "security" in the Circle. They are watched constantly by zealots and bigots who have been trained to hate them and are looking for any excuse to kill or lobotomize them. Any "friends" they might make could be taken away at any moment for totally arbitrary reasons.

Nonsense.

The Templars in the Circle of Ferelden were quite reasonable compared to the ones in Kirkwall.

Don't lump all Templars into one boat.

Unless you put Cullent in charge after killing the Archdemon in DAO lmao

But yes, there are many reasonable people in the Templars, like Thrask for instant.

[Shadow Fox]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
In the end, mages are still people and deserve to be free and not chained up like animals all their lives.

Newsflash:
Life does not care what anyone "deserves".
Deserving a completely human and subjective concept.

All the people that died because of Connor, anders and all the other mages - did they deserve to die?

That was due to human stupidity and Connor was a child. It was also the product of Loghain; he hired Jowan to poison Eamon due to politics crap and it started the whole thing. Of course Jowan was still at fault for doing it, but Connor was a child simply trying to help his father. He doesn't deserve to be killed because of that.

What about all the people living in fear of the coeterie and gangs in Kirkwall? Do they deserve to get killed because they won't bribe off the gangs of nonmages?

MisterJB wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Struggling is still better than sitting around doing nothing because it's our "nature"

I'm
not innactive. I acknowledge the failings and limitations of human
beings and try to work within those parameters to achieve the best
possible result.
It's better than struggle in vain for an unnatainable ideal.

No it is not. It simply seems unnatainable because the Chantry rant on and on about how evil and horrible mages and magic are and have locked them up for nine centuries for being born. It's basicallg ingrained in peoples head that mages are wild and untamed for centuries. The Chantry simply made everything worse and I'm surprised it took this long to blow up in their faces.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yes, I would let them free rather then enslaving them all because of what a few would do.

And
stop being so dramatic; people without magic can cause horrific acts of
chaos, death and wanton destruction; just look at the Exalted March on
the Dales. That wasn't caused by mages, but religious stupidity. That
death count outstips anything the big bad mages have done, barring the
Imperium.

No, mages can be killed by other people just as easily.
Hawke can easilly kill a hostile mage on her own as a warrior without
any templar abilities. Mages aren't 'unstoppable killing machines' if
they do go loony. They can be killed via a sword in the gut or an arrow
in the head just as easily as the next person. Also, a madman with an
axe can easily kill dozens of people on their own without magic. They
can be as dangerous as a mage; they simply use different tools.

Then you are a fool.

Wrong one mage can cause just as much destruction as an army of soldiers and they can do it by accident*conner*.

Hawke
is a pc they break the rules of the game so the player can feel like a
badass name one incident where an out of control mage was put down by a
common guard I'll wait.

A man with an axe can be killed by
another man with a weapon and when the weapon is taken away they cease
to be a threat magic can not be taken away.And are you serious saying an
axe can cause as much damage as an inferno,lightning storm,earthquake
or blizzard?

Connor was a child. He wasn't aware of the repercussions due to lack of education and manipulation as well as the desire to save his father who was dying.

An axe to the head can kill a mage as easilly as anything else. I'm of the opinion that guards need to learn how to kill mages, rather than the Templars being all "lol no" about their abilities. People do tend to do horrible things, so yes some will need killing. Just as thieves and loonies without magic will need to be killed. If the Templars share abilities with normal guards, then that will help deal with it, rather than rounding all those people up and locking them away. People don't seem to get that.

I just think it's wrong to imprision people on the principle of 'they may do bad things'. Seems I'm a minority here.

Proof that the mages need to be monitered.

And a Templar can deal with a mage far easier and with less risk than a mage because they are specially trained to deal with it It's no different then having special ops Sure the millitary could train common cops to deal with those issues but it would be less effective then a specially trained unit that could deal with it while the cops continue handling everyday issues.

They aren't quarentined because they might do bad things they are because history has proven that bad things will happen if mages aren't kept in check it's the harsh reality of the situation.

[KiwiQuiche]

Palidane wrote...

And if Mages have to be educated, why not educate them in a circle? Then you have access to more resources, friends, perspectives, and security.

Well, getting people to properly tutor a mage is a good thing, however I just have a problem with the "steal from family, lock up for ever" thing they have going on. Maybe if it was more like a boarding school- go for a few years, have holidays and be able to have family visit and leave completely if you wished- I would be far more accepting of it. Also not having the Templars stalk the mages all over the place. Being constantly watched doesn't really help.

I do not approve of the Circles in their current state.

[alhamel94]

kill all the mages, my dex tank hates getting pooed on by these cowardly people that are only powerful because they were born. let those who achieve their own strength be the strong. exterminate magic.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Palidane wrote...

And if Mages have to be educated, why not educate them in a circle? Then you have access to more resources, friends, perspectives, and security.

There is no "security" in the Circle. They are watched constantly by zealots and bigots who have been trained to hate them and are looking for any excuse to kill or lobotomize them. Any "friends" they might make could be taken away at any moment for totally arbitrary reasons.

Yes, Alistair was seething with hatred for all magekind....

Alistair was never ordained. He was forced into his training, and he makes it extremely clear that he dislikes the Chantry generally. He's happy that Duncan came along and recruited him when he did. Any positive views Alistair might hold about the Circle system are baseless because he's never actually worked in it. He has no clue about the abuses that go unpunished.

Alistair is an example of a decent person with Templar abilities. He is not an example of a decent person working in a Templar capacity.

[Terrorize69]

I'm all in favour of a circle if the circle was the size of a country, give mages Orlais lol.

[Plaintiff]

Zkyire wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Palidane wrote...

And if Mages have to be educated, why not educate them in a circle? Then you have access to more resources, friends, perspectives, and security.

There is no "security" in the Circle. They are watched constantly by zealots and bigots who have been trained to hate them and are looking for any excuse to kill or lobotomize them. Any "friends" they might make could be taken away at any moment for totally arbitrary reasons.

Nonsense.

The Templars in the Circle of Ferelden were quite reasonable compared to the ones in Kirkwall.

Don't lump all Templars into one boat.

Greagoir has been shown in secondary media beating a pregnant female mage.

Aneirin was slaughtered by templars of the Ferelden Circle and left for dead.

The codex makes it perfectly clear that the Chantry deliberately recruits zealots.

[The Elder King]

Plaintiff wrote...


Greagoir has been shown in secondary media beating a pregnant female mage.

Aneirin was slaughtered by templars of the Ferelden Circle and left for dead.

The codex makes it perfectly clear that the Chantry deliberately recruits zealots.

I remember that in the templar codes it was stated they'd prefer to recruit people who will follow the orders than recruiting people which have their own moral code (which could lead then to be against some orders). That doesn't mean the former are zealots, but mindless zombie who follow every orders.

[Palidane]

Wow Plaintiff, you almost seem like a strawman of pro-mage supporters. The Circle system is necessary and efficient, we just need to start reforming and rethinking some parts, namely the balance of power.

Where do you get that the Chantry preaches magic is freaking evil as all hell and we have to instantly kill all mages? Where do you even get that all templars are psychos? Greagoir and Cullen were very reasonable, as were all the heroic templars in Lothering. Even the ones with Lyrium Addiction aren't that bad. Caroll was odd, but not dangerous, and the one in the Denerim Chantry was more pitiable than anything. Ser Thrask and Ser Otto were also excellent.

Modifié par Palidane, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:01 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
That's an exageration and you know it. Templars are not looking for reasons to kill or lobomotize mages.
It's illegal to do so after the Harrowing. This rule is so commonly respected that there is actually a special prison for mages who passed their Harrowing but broke the rules.

Plenty of mages never make it to the Harrowing because they are arbitrarily judged to be "too weak".

The Harrowing is a completely moronic test anyway. It is not an accurate measure of a mage's ability and it does not guarantee that they won't be possessed in future. It serves no purpose except to kill a significant fraction of the mages that undergo the process.

In Val Royeaux, mages were allowed to visit the city and even buy things. Until Anders commited an act of terrorism, that is. Guess he should have see that coming.

They get to go shopping? Well that changes everything!

Which doesn't change the fact Anders ran seven times from the very same tower and no one did a thing to him.

I say again, you don't get extra points for not being a murderer. Anders didn't hurt anyone in his attempts to escape, and I don't believe that fleeing the Circle should be a crime anyway.

I expect Aneirin had the bad luck of being hunted my more overzealous templars; or it was a racial issue; or it was in the days before Knight Commander Greagoir.

When it happened who commited it is irrelevent.

The fact that there are detestable templars doesn't mean most are not just decent people who want to feed their families and serve the Maker at the same time.

Plenty of ****s just wanted to feed their families and serve their country, but I don't see anyone leaping to their defense.

A "decent person" would not stay a Templar for very long, if they became one at all. A "decent person" would not be able to stomach the abuses they witnessed while working as one.

Of course they do. Anders broke the rules seven times. Had he tried that sh*t in Kirkwall under Meredith, he would have been killed or made Tranquil the very first attempt.

The Kirkwall Circle being worse by comparison does not make the Ferelden Circle any less terrible.

[KiwiQuiche]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Proof that the mages need to be monitered.

And a Templar can deal with a mage far easier and with less risk than a mage because they are specially trained to deal with it It's no different then having special ops Sure the millitary could train common cops to deal with those issues but it would be less effective then a specially trained unit that could deal with it while the cops continue handling everyday issues.

They aren't quarentined because they might do bad things they are because history has proven that bad things will happen if mages aren't kept in check it's the harsh reality of the situation.

You shouldn't imprision people because of a history they didn't partake in.

No, normal guards should be trained in how to deal with ALL threats, mages and non mages included. Templars should NOT be a seperate order. That makes everything worse, also in the fact the Chantry goes out of it's way to get the zealots in their ranks. Or maybe they can just be used like SWAT or something...I dunno, but the current system is utter crap and needs to be removed. The fact ALL the Circles rebelled and the Templars gave an FU to the Chantry so they can hunt people is proof something is horribly wrong.

Terrorize69 wrote...

I'm all in favour of a circle if the circle was the size of a country, give mages Orlais lol.

I approve of this plan.