656 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerevar-as]

Plaintiff wrote...

Greagoir has been shown in secondary media beating a pregnant female mage.

Aneirin was slaughtered by templars of the Ferelden Circle and left for dead.

The codex makes it perfectly clear that the Chantry deliberately recruits zealots.

If you mean OSC comic, that comic was horrible, no idea if it´s canon.

And Wynne´s child was taken away from her and raised in another Circle, and apparently that´s normal procedure. So even a "moderate" Circle still takes away basic rifghts just for the sake of it. Unless forbidding sex has to do with controlling mage numbers, which is also distrubing.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Last I checked, the Tranquilisation was always run by Irwing too.

So yes, the Fereled tower is indeed a comfortable place, and I haven't seen vicious, zealous templars. There was only one I can recall - the one who hunted Aerin.

Every single other templar we met in Ferelden was a nice guy.

[Palidane]

For God's sake you people, templars are not oppressing mages cause they think it's lulzy. Mages are loaded guns. Every one of them. Not only are they people who have been given extreme power from birth with zero qualifications, they are always open to the influence of demons. We can't just let them waltz around and hope everything works out.

[Nerevar-as]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Last I checked, the Tranquilisation was always run by Irwing too.

So yes, the Fereled tower is indeed a comfortable place, and I haven't seen vicious, zealous templars. There was only one I can recall - the one who hunted Aerin.

Every single other templar we met in Ferelden was a nice guy.

There´s also Anders´s last hunting party, which even tried to assassinate him along with the Warden Commander (just how stupid someone must be to try that on the person who killed the AD scapes me).

[Nerevar-as]

Palidane wrote...

For God's sake you people, templars are not oppressing mages cause they think it's lulzy. Mages are loaded guns. Every one of them. Not only are they people who have been given extreme power from birth with zero qualifications, they are always open to the influence of demons. We can't just let them waltz around and hope everything works out.

Magneto was right.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Plenty of mages never make it to the Harrowing because they are arbitrarily judged to be "too weak".

The Harrowing is a completely moronic test anyway. It is not an accurate measure of a mage's ability and it does not guarantee that they won't be possessed in future. It serves no purpose except to kill a significant fraction of the mages that undergo the process.

The logic beyond the Harrowing is sound. if a mage can defend himself or herself from a demon when they are most unprepared and under a time limit, then we can reasonably expect him or her to be able to do it in almost any situation.
It's unrefined, sure. But there is a point and a purpose to it.

They get to go shopping? Well that changes everything!

Allow me to disregard the freedoms and rights mages have while arguing they should have freedoms and rights.

I say again, you don't get extra points for not being a murderer. Anders didn't hurt anyone in his attempts to escape, and I don't believe that fleeing the Circle should be a crime anyway.

If Anders became an abomination in his escape attempts, he would have hurt a lot of people.
It is and it should be. Mages must remains separated from the larger community for everyone's good. That doesn't mean we can't do it humanely.

When it happened who commited it is irrelevent.

Seriously? You're just going to disregard who did it and the mentality of the KC at the time? Important factors. Just going to look at the uniform? Now who's dehumanizing the "enemy"?

A "decent person" would not stay a Templar for very long, if they became one at all. A "decent person" would not be able to stomach the abuses they witnessed while working as one.

Just like we witness mass desertions from police forces because some are corrupt? Templars provide a necessary service. Anyone can see that.

The Kirkwall Circle being worse by comparison does not make the Ferelden Circle any less terrible.

The most terrible thing about Ferelden's Circle are Libertarians like Uldred and his blood mage entourage.

[Palidane]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Palidane wrote...

For God's sake you people, templars are not oppressing mages cause they think it's lulzy. Mages are loaded guns. Every one of them. Not only are they people who have been given extreme power from birth with zero qualifications, they are always open to the influence of demons. We can't just let them waltz around and hope everything works out.

Magneto was right.

I'm not saying we kill them, I'm saying we gather them, help them, advise them, teach them, protect them, and monitor them. But mages are not normal people, and they can't be held to the same standard. Look at what Connor did in Redcliffe! Or that demon in the Denerim Alienage Orphanage.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Palidane wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Palidane wrote...

For God's sake you people, templars are not oppressing mages cause they think it's lulzy. Mages are loaded guns. Every one of them. Not only are they people who have been given extreme power from birth with zero qualifications, they are always open to the influence of demons. We can't just let them waltz around and hope everything works out.

Magneto was right.

I'm not saying we kill them, I'm saying we gather them, help them, advise them, teach them, protect them, and monitor them. But mages are not normal people, and they can't be held to the same standard. Look at what Connor did in Redcliffe! Or that demon in the Denerim Alienage Orphanage.

The orphanage thing wasn't because of mages, it was because there was too much death because of the riots.

[Plaintiff]

Palidane wrote...
Wow Plaintiff, you almost seem like a strawman of pro-mage supporters.

Wow Palidane, I don't think you know what a strawman is.

The Circle system is necessary and efficient, we just need to start reforming and rethinking some parts, namely the balance of power.

At no point did I say that mages should be allowed to run around unsupervised.

Yes, the balance of power needs to be adjusted. For starters, the Chantry should not have any.

Where do you get that the Chantry preaches magic is freaking evil as all hell and we have to instantly kill all mages?

How about the part where they blame magic for the existence of the Darkspawn? How about the part where they say that freeing mages can only lead to a return of the Tevinter Imperium? 

Where do you even get that all templars are psychos? Greagoir and Cullen were very reasonable, as were all the heroic templars in Lothering.

Greagoir is shown beating a pregnant mage in the ancillary media. Cullen stood back and allowed Meredith to annul the Kirkwall Circle for a crime it had not committed. Neither are paragons of virtue. 

Even the ones with Lyrium Addiction aren't that bad.

I don't see what lyrium addiction has to do with anything. Being addicted to lyrium doesn't cause you to beat, murder or rape people (as far as I'm aware), and I never said it did.

But the fact that the Chantry uses an addictive substance to leash Templars is utterly despicable, and only further proof that the whole system is completely broken.

Caroll was odd, but not dangerous,

Caroll was a sleazy creep, but I dare say that's irrelevent to his position as a Templar. 

And the one in the Denerim Chantry was more pitiable than anything.

Who?

Ser Thrask and Ser Otto were also excellent.

Ser Thrask is better than his peers, certainly, but that's not exactly a high bar to clear. The fact that he allowed his daughter to flee Kirkwall, rather than have her in the Gallows, where he could even keep an eye out for her, is extremely telling.

Ser Otto would do better to investigate the corruption among his own peers rather than chasing down vague rumours of "evil presences". As far as I can tell, the demons in the abandoned orphanage were minding their own business until he showed up.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:22 .

[The Elder King]

Palidane wrote...



I'm not saying we kill them, I'm saying we gather them, help them, advise them, teach them, protect them, and monitor them. But mages are not normal people, and they can't be held to the same standard. Look at what Connor did in Redcliffe! Or that demon in the Denerim Alienage Orphanage.

:huh:Demons will not magically stay away from Thedas if all mages will be in the Circles. Rather, all the wars and atrocities Thedas had are making the Veil thinnier in certain part of the world (Kirkwall is the prime example of it, apparently), making easier for demons to appear in Thedas, even without the presence of mages. Which is a serious issue that should be considere more by the people in Thedas.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
 As far as I can tell, the demons in the abandoned orphanage were minding their own business until he showed up.

Ok, what? Did you just defend the rigths of demons?

[Terrorize69]

Palidane wrote...

For God's sake you people, templars are not oppressing mages cause they think it's lulzy. Mages are loaded guns. Every one of them. Not only are they people who have been given extreme power from birth with zero qualifications, they are always open to the influence of demons. We can't just let them waltz around and hope everything works out.

Yes, you can and you should.

Freedom is the right of every sentient being.

[Nerevar-as]

Palidane wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Palidane wrote...

For God's sake you people, templars are not oppressing mages cause they think it's lulzy. Mages are loaded guns. Every one of them. Not only are they people who have been given extreme power from birth with zero qualifications, they are always open to the influence of demons. We can't just let them waltz around and hope everything works out.

Magneto was right.

I'm not saying we kill them, I'm saying we gather them, help them, advise them, teach them, protect them, and monitor them. But mages are not normal people, and they can't be held to the same standard. Look at what Connor did in Redcliffe! Or that demon in the Denerim Alienage Orphanage.

I agree with that, but when the final exam consists in a do or die test with minimal preparation, you are not allowed to have family, if you do you have it taken away, and have no privacy, then something must change. I´m only surprised it took several centuries to reach the current state.

[alhamel94]

if the mages were all dead the atrocities could not happen

[Terrorize69]

alhamel94 wrote...

if the mages were all dead the atrocities could not happen

If all non mages were dead, no one would whine about mages.

[The Elder King]

Plaintiff wrote...


Ser Otto would do better to investigate the corruption among his own peers rather than chasing down vague rumours of "evil presences". As far as I can tell, the demons in the abandoned orphanage were minding their own business until he showed up.

Because leaving demons alone will not make the things worse? Demons feed on humans's emotions. Sooner or later the demons in the orphanage would've attacked mortals.
I asked you this question before, but you probably missed. Would you be fine with the Circle system if it was completely indipendant from the Chantry, with an organization composed by both mages and non-mages to watch over them, and with more rights and freedom? 

[MisterJB]

Terrorize69 wrote...
Yes, you can and you should.
Freedom is the right of every sentient being.

My Cousland watched his parents die in front of his dies and joined an organization where you are expected to serve for life and die alone in the Deep Roads in order to survive. Where was the freedom in that?
No one is free.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
 As far as I can tell, the demons in the abandoned orphanage were minding their own business until he showed up.

Ok, what? Did you just defend the rigths of demons?

Sure.

They emerged into the physical world as a result of the slaughter, but they did not cause it. There is no proof that they harmed anyone at all, prior to the party entering in there. Maybe they were lying in wait for victims, I don't know, there isn't any proof. Innocent until proven guilty is what I say.

If a demon minds its own business, then what is the problem? Justice was a spirit, which makes him supposedly "good", but he was a militant, unreasonable douchebag, even before the events of DA2.

[General User]

Any person with a basic command of magic can pass a Harrowing so long as they keep in mind a few quite simple principles. No matter what else you might say about the Harrowing, it's not particularly difficult.

[Terrorize69]

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Yes, you can and you should.
Freedom is the right of every sentient being.

My Cousland watched his parents die in front of his dies and joined an organization where you are expected to serve for life and die alone in the Deep Roads in order to survive. Where was the freedom in that?
No one is free.

You had the choice not to join. Mages don't get the choice to forefit their freedom, its decided for them.

[The Elder King]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

For God's sake you people, templars are not oppressing mages cause they think it's lulzy. Mages are loaded guns. Every one of them. Not only are they people who have been given extreme power from birth with zero qualifications, they are always open to the influence of demons. We can't just let them waltz around and hope everything works out.

Yes, you can and you should.

Freedom is the right of every sentient being.

I've yet to decide on the matter, but even in the case of a complete freedom for mages, rules and an organization (composed not only by non-mages but mages too) to watch over the mages,  is needed anyway.

Modifié par hhh89, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:29 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Terrorize69 wrote...

alhamel94 wrote...

if the mages were all dead the atrocities could not happen

If all non mages were dead, no one would whine about mages.

This person, he/she understands.

Terrorize69 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

For
God's sake you people, templars are not oppressing mages cause they
think it's lulzy. Mages are loaded guns. Every one of them. Not only are
they people who have been given extreme power from birth with zero
qualifications, they are always open to the influence of demons. We can't just let them waltz around and hope everything works out.

Yes, you can and you should.

Freedom is the right of every sentient being.

Optimus approves.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:30 .

[Plaintiff]

hhh89 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...


Ser Otto would do better to investigate the corruption among his own peers rather than chasing down vague rumours of "evil presences". As far as I can tell, the demons in the abandoned orphanage were minding their own business until he showed up.

Because leaving demons alone will not make the things worse? Demons feed on humans's emotions. Sooner or later the demons in the orphanage would've attacked mortals.
I asked you this question before, but you probably missed. Would you be fine with the Circle system if it was completely indipendant from the Chantry, with an organization composed by both mages and non-mages to watch over them, and with more rights and freedom? 

If the Circle system was completely independent of the Chantry, and mages were part of the secular police force that watched over it, and there was a better system of checks and balances to ensure that abuses were prevented, or at least punished more often, then yes, that would be a vast improvement.

It would still need some tweaking, but it would be a good start.

[The Elder King]

Plaintiff wrote...


Sure.

They emerged into the physical world as a result of the slaughter, but they did not cause it. There is no proof that they harmed anyone at all, prior to the party entering in there. Maybe they were lying in wait for victims, I don't know, there isn't any proof. Innocent until proven guilty is what I say.

If a demon minds its own business, then what is the problem? Justice was a spirit, which makes him supposedly "good", but he was a militant, unreasonable douchebag, even before the events of DA2.

The problem is that demon feed on humans's emotions. Sooner or later they would've attacked humans to feed on them.

[MisterJB]

Demons don't mind their own business. Their sole interests consist of possessing people, corrupting people, feeding on people and killing people.
Seriously, demons?