656 réponses à ce sujet

[Terrorize69]

hhh89 wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...



I've yet to decide on the matter, but even in the case of a complete freedom for mages, rules and an organization (composed not only by non-mages but mages too) to watch over the mages,  is needed anyway.

Ofcourse mages should still follow the laws of the land, just like anyone. Don't need to be locked in a 6 by 8 room for half your life to do that. Unless you show otherwise, innocent till proven guilty.

I'm sure most mages follow basic laws anyway.

The problem with this is that is difficult to prevent' magic's abuse. I've proposed a model earlier on the thread with complete freedom, but I'm not sure if it'll work.

The same way its difficult to prevent someone sliting someones throat in the dead of night.

People capable and willing to do bad deeds will do so regardless, even the circles proved that, mages that wanted to turn to blood magic etc, still did.

Faith in humanity and deterrents are the only ways to prevent action.

[Face of Evil]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

After seeing the type of people of the templars, the chantry, the nobles and the dwarfs are, I can't really say I'll miss them.

And certainly no mage has never done anything evil! Just look at the morally upstanding examples we've had so far in the series:

Uldred
The Baroness
Zathrian
Avernus
Tarohne
Decimus
Quentin
Hadriana
Huon
Danarius
Grace
Orsino
Flemeth
Corypheus
Severan
First Enchanter Remille

Paragons of virtue, all!

Modifié par Face of Evil, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:43 .

[alhamel94]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

alhamel94 wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

General User wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

alhamel94 wrote...

if the mages were all dead the atrocities could not happen

If all non mages were dead, no one would whine about mages.

This person, he/she understands.

You mage supporters sure do love your genocide fantasies.

After seeing the type of people of the templars, the chantry, the nobles and the dwarfs are, I can't really say I'll miss them.

hush hush lord bhelen is a magnificent ruler who is pushing against the darkspawn and reclaiming lost thaigs whilst bringing orzammar into the dragon age

While killing his father and brother and throwing his other brother to the pit on purpose. I can never understand how people support him but whine about Loghain and Anora.

because the dwarves political system was so incredibly broken and regressive. cailan and anora proposed a much more progressive system and gave up the hatred of orlais. because of this loghain attempted to seize control and try to put ferelden behind. basically they both had mad power grabs but bhelen actually made things better

[Palidane]

Plaintiff wrote...
It doesn't need to be when the majority of recruits are already zealots.

Which is funny, because you don't know that.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Again, Hawke is a victim of circumstance, which is not at all the same thing. He can go anywhere and do whatever he likes, nothing is preventing him except plot constraints.

Did you get this argument from Sebastian? It was bad when he used it and it's bad now.

Sebastian is completely free, not to mention a totally oblivious, self-absorbed twit. He is not being kept prisoner in the Chantry. He has the option to leave whenever he likes. If he did not have that option, then he wouldn't sit around wangsting about what to do with his life, because the question would be moot.

Extenuating cirscunstances have caused the mages to be kept in a tower for the safety of everyone.
Sebastian is right, you know? He was given to the Chantry at a young age. He didn't get to choose.
When the king calls his banner, deserters are killed. They are not free. We limit our freedoms everyday to ensure the existence of our society. 

[Terrorize69]

General User wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

General User wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

alhamel94 wrote...

if the mages were all dead the atrocities could not happen

If all non mages were dead, no one would whine about mages.

This person, he/she understands.

You mage supporters sure do love your genocide fantasies.   What's up with that?

Funny how you missed out the anti-mage genocide in the same pyramid, mine is a retort to that.

And rather than denouce it for being crazy you just turn it around and find... support.

If you don't actually fit this mold I apologize, but it seems that alot of "mage supporters" don't have any problem with wholesale slaughter just so long as they're the ones deciding who's getting slaughtered.

Its eaiser to flip a stupid idea and show it for what it is then try denounce it.

There are some yes, just like there are anti-mage supporters, both feel "genocide" is the only way. Of course they are both wrong, fanatics will always exist for any cause.

[TheJediSaint]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Because the mages are all saints, right?<_<

Nope but if you're solution to fix the mages problem is to slaughter them regardless of their morals, then my solution is to do the same thing back.

My solution?  And what, pray tell, do you think my solution is?

[TK514]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

For God's sake you people, templars are not oppressing mages cause they think it's lulzy. Mages are loaded guns. Every one of them. Not only are they people who have been given extreme power from birth with zero qualifications, they are always open to the influence of demons. We can't just let them waltz around and hope everything works out.

Yes, you can and you should.

Freedom is the right of every sentient being.

Tell that to the people of Redcliffe.
Or even the mages of the Circle of Ferelden.
Or how about we take a look in Wilhelm's cellar.  I'm sure there's nothing dodgy down there.

The Dalish, you say?  Why, they've certainly been shown to have stable non-circle mages.  You know, the sort of people who would never curse entire generations of innocent people or become possesed by Pride Demons.

And the Tevinter Imperium is a sparkling example of equality and temperance on the part of Mages.

The list goes on and on, showing exactly why the quarantine of Mages is necessary.

[General User]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Its eaiser to flip a stupid idea and show it for what it is then try denounce it.

There are some yes, just like there are anti-mage supporters, both feel "genocide" is the only way. Of course they are both wrong, fanatics will always exist for any cause.

That being the case, perhaps fanaticism and extremism themselves are the true enemies.

Modifié par General User, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:47 .

[GodWood]

Terrorize69 wrote...
Yes, you can and you should.

Freedom is the right of every sentient being.

Regardless of how many lives it endangers and destroys amirite?

Honestly, so long as these are the type of people debating the discussion is going to go no where. One side wishes to find a way that benefits all parties by ensuring protection and safety for all involved, the other wishes to uphold ideals regardless of the negative consequences it will bring.

[Terrorize69]

General User wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Its eaiser to flip a stupid idea and show it for what it is then try denounce it.

There are some yes, just like there are anti-mage supporters, both feel "genocide" is the only way. Of course they are both wrong, fanatics will always exist for any cause.

That being the case, perhaps fanaticism and extremism themselves are the true enemies.

Prehaps Mages and Templars should come together to rid the world of these 2 evils, then prehaps they both will be in a better position to find a compromise that will please both sides.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Again, Hawke is a victim of circumstance, which is not at all the same thing. He can go anywhere and do whatever he likes, nothing is preventing him except plot constraints.

Did you get this argument from Sebastian? It was bad when he used it and it's bad now.

Sebastian is completely free, not to mention a totally oblivious, self-absorbed twit. He is not being kept prisoner in the Chantry. He has the option to leave whenever he likes. If he did not have that option, then he wouldn't sit around wangsting about what to do with his life, because the question would be moot.

Extenuating cirscunstances have caused the mages to be kept in a tower for the safety of everyone.
Sebastian is right, you know? He was given to the Chantry at a young age. He didn't get to choose.
When the king calls his banner, deserters are killed. They are not free. We limit our freedoms everyday to ensure the existence of our society. 

In the short story that serves as a prequel to his appearance, Elthina gives Sebastian the money his parents paid for his keeping and says he can leave if he wants to, which he does.

He returns to the Chantry because he wants to, not because he has to.

He may not have had freedom as a child, but he has it now, and to deny others something that he himself enjoys (whether he chooses to admit it or not) is the pinnacle of hypocrisy.

[The Elder King]

Terrorize69 wrote...


The same way its difficult to prevent someone sliting someones throat in the dead of night.

People capable and willing to do bad deeds will do so regardless, even the circles proved that, mages that wanted to turn to blood magic etc, still did.

Faith in humanity and deterrents are the only ways to prevent action.

I don't have  enoughfaith in humanity to let the matter pass without having a model I can agree with. I proposed in my models server punshiments in case of crimes, but the normal system of the Andrastian society needs to be integrated by new rules and an organization that watch over mages (which could be composed by non-mages and mages with equal power), and even in this case, I'm not sure how efficient it'd be.
Regardless, I haven't choose yet on the matter. And the game will probably not present the sides and their models for the future society in a way I can 100% side with any of the three main sides.

Modifié par hhh89, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:50 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Face of Evil wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

After seeing the type of people of the templars, the chantry, the nobles and the dwarfs are, I can't really say I'll miss them.

And certainly no mage has never done anything evil! Just look at the morally upstanding examples we've had so far in the series:

Uldred
The Baroness
Zathrian
Tarohne
Decimus
Quentin
Hadriana
Huon
Danarius
Grace
Orsino
Flemeth
Severan
First Enchanter Remille

Paragons of virtue, all!

And who send out Uldred? Definitely not Loghain and he totally wasn't told to shut up by the Grand Cleric for giving an actual good idea. Uldred was totally to 100% blame for that. /sarcasm
And what does Remille matter? The Orlais sent him not the mages.
And who lead Sevren? Oh that's right, another annoying noble.
Flemeth ain't even human/abomination so she ain't no mage. For all we know, she's a dragon.

And what about Zatharian? His not an evil character or greedy character, his revenge is driving him just like Sebastian or Alistair revenge drove them.  Oh and Zathrian learns the error of his ways in the end. Unlike all these crazy templars or chantry mothers or nobles who just continue to live in their own world about how specal they are and how mages and elves suck compare to them.

And really most of those DA2 mages are crazy but so are all majority of characters in DA2, so I don't see how that matters.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:58 .

[alhamel94]

mages wield unatural power. they cannot be controlled even by their own kind

[Plaintiff]

Palidane wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
It doesn't need to be when the majority of recruits are already zealots.

Which is funny, because you don't know that.

The codex states it explicitly.

[Terrorize69]

TK514 wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

For God's sake you people, templars are not oppressing mages cause they think it's lulzy. Mages are loaded guns. Every one of them. Not only are they people who have been given extreme power from birth with zero qualifications, they are always open to the influence of demons. We can't just let them waltz around and hope everything works out.

Yes, you can and you should.

Freedom is the right of every sentient being.

Tell that to the people of Redcliffe.
Or even the mages of the Circle of Ferelden.
Or how about we take a look in Wilhelm's cellar.  I'm sure there's nothing dodgy down there.

The Dalish, you say?  Why, they've certainly been shown to have stable non-circle mages.  You know, the sort of people who would never curse entire generations of innocent people or become possesed by Pride Demons.

And the Tevinter Imperium is a sparkling example of equality and temperance on the part of Mages.

The list goes on and on, showing exactly why the quarantine of Mages is necessary.

You know.. if the circle didn't exist and mages weren't "taboo" then..

- Redcliffe would never of happened.
- The Ferelden circle would never of happened.
- Wilhelms story, a product also of the circle.

You'll find most of the "bad mage" storys are bred from the oppression of the circles and the Templar Order.

Modifié par Terrorize69, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:55 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

alhamel94 wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

alhamel94 wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

General User wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

alhamel94 wrote...

if the mages were all dead the atrocities could not happen

If all non mages were dead, no one would whine about mages.

This person, he/she understands.

You mage supporters sure do love your genocide fantasies.

After seeing the type of people of the templars, the chantry, the nobles and the dwarfs are, I can't really say I'll miss them.

hush hush lord bhelen is a magnificent ruler who is pushing against the darkspawn and reclaiming lost thaigs whilst bringing orzammar into the dragon age

While killing his father and brother and throwing his other brother to the pit on purpose. I can never understand how people support him but whine about Loghain and Anora.

because the dwarves political system was so incredibly broken and regressive. cailan and anora proposed a much more progressive system and gave up the hatred of orlais. because of this loghain attempted to seize control and try to put ferelden behind. basically they both had mad power grabs but bhelen actually made things better

Loghain doesn't want power. He just doesn't want the people to suffer in the hands of Orlais again. Really, Loghain hates power and he dislikes most nobility anyway.

Anora likes powers, that's for sure, but she's also a good leader and didn't kill anyone to get there unlike Bhelen. Oh and Anora epilogue show her to be a way better ruler than Alistair so yeah, Anora also made things better.

Bhelen kills just like Loghain but people are all ready to give him a pat on the back just because he didn't stab you in the back (Unless you're Dwarf noble) but Loghain and Anora do so they must be EVIL and power hungry while Bhelen is totally not that.

[Palidane]

Plaintiff wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
It doesn't need to be when the majority of recruits are already zealots.

Which is funny, because you don't know that.

The codex states it explicitly.

a). That was written by a First Enchanter
. So tell me which modern nation would rather recruit moral soldiers who will constantly agonize over whether they should follow orders, or just recruit patriots. Being in an army is hard and requires hard choices. Your man can't back out.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
In the short story that serves as a prequel to his appearance, Elthina gives Sebastian the money his parents paid for his keeping and says he can leave if he wants to, which he does.

He returns to the Chantry because he wants to, not because he has to.

He may not have had freedom as a child, but he has it now, and to deny others something that he himself enjoys (whether he chooses to admit it or not) is the pinnacle of hypocrisy.

Sebastian is not as dangerous as a mage.

And the point still stands. We limit our freedoms everyday in order to live in society because people have the potential to be dangerous. The potential of mages for destruction dwarfs that of mundanes thus, their freedoms must be lesser still.
We enforce gun control because people have the potential to be dangerous. Sure, humans can kill with their bare hands but the potential for destruction of a tank is much greater ergo we don't allow civillians to keep tanks lest somone destroy the neighborhood if his wife cheats on him.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

TheJediSaint wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Because the mages are all saints, right?<_<

Nope but if you're solution to fix the mages problem is to slaughter them regardless of their morals, then my solution is to do the same thing back.

My solution?  And what, pray tell, do you think my solution is?

How should I know? I'm trying to be dramatic here, don't ruin the moment.

[General User]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
In the short story that serves as a prequel to his appearance, Elthina gives Sebastian the money his parents paid for his keeping and says he can leave if he wants to, which he does.

He returns to the Chantry because he wants to, not because he has to.

He may not have had freedom as a child, but he has it now, and to deny others something that he himself enjoys (whether he chooses to admit it or not) is the pinnacle of hypocrisy.

Sebastian is not as dangerous as a mage.

And the point still stands. We limit our freedoms everyday in order to live in society because people have the potential to be dangerous. The potential of mages for destruction dwarfs that of mundanes thus, their freedoms must be lesser still.
We enforce gun control because people have the potential to be dangerous. Sure, humans can kill with their bare hands but the potential for destruction of a tank is much greater ergo we don't allow civillians to keep tanks lest somone destroy the neighborhood if his wife cheats on him.

You might like this movie.

[Palidane]

Terrorize69 wrote...
You know.. if the circle didn't exist and mages weren't "taboo" then..

- Redcliffe would never of happened.
- The Ferelden circle would never of happened.
- Wilhelms story, a product also of the circle.

You'll find most of the "bad mage" storys are bred from the oppression of the circles and the Templar Order.

Those specific incidents probably would not have happened, but that doesn't mean the world is sunshine and bunnies once the mages are free.

But hey, Tevinter is free from the oppression of the circles and the templars, and look how that turned out!

[KiwiQuiche]

MisterJB wrote...

Demons don't mind their own business. Their sole interests consist of possessing people, corrupting people, feeding on people and killing people.
Seriously, demons?

I'm of Merril's mentality when it comes to demons; they are simply people of another realm, the Fade. Sure you get the nasty ones like Rage and Pride, but not all are evil killing for teh lulz, like the Desire Demon and her Templar, who I let go.

Likewise Faith and Valiant and whatnot are fellow Fade residents and they help and aid people. As we saw with Justice, even the good can fall victims to extreme changes in personalities.

Demons and good spirits don't exist. They are just terms to 'seperpate' the same creatures with different motives and personalities.

[The Elder King]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...


Loghain doesn't want power. He just doesn't want the people to suffer in the hands of Orlais again. Really, Loghain hates power and he dislikes most nobility anyway.

Anora likes powers, that's for sure, but she's also a good leader and didn't kill anyone to get there unlike Bhelen. Oh and Anora epilogue show her to be a way better ruler than Alistair so yeah, Anora also made things better.

Bhelen kills just like Loghain but people are all ready to give him a pat on the back just because he didn't stab you in the back (Unless you're Dwarf noble) but Loghain and Anora do so they must be EVIL and power hungry while Bhelen is totally not that.

My opinion of Anora and Bhelen is the same. Excellent rulers, but not the king of people I'd trust to show my back.
Loghain became paranoid due to Orlais's fear. And Cailan didn't exactly help, with is intention of marrying Celene. Though that didn't prevent me to kill Loghain. I have doubt that he had no role in the plan of destroying the Cousland. Bryce and Eamon were the only men able to confront him at the Landsmeet. Both of them were planned to be assassinated. Howe was allied with Loghain, and most likely before Ostagar.