KiwiQuiche wrote...
I'm of Merril's mentality when it comes to demons; they are simply people of another realm, the Fade. Sure you get the nasty ones like Rage and Pride, but not all are evil killing for teh lulz, like the Desire Demon and her Templar, who I let go.
Palidane wrote...
Terrorize69 wrote...
You know.. if the circle didn't exist and mages weren't "taboo" then..
- Redcliffe would never of happened.
- The Ferelden circle would never of happened.
- Wilhelms story, a product also of the circle.
You'll find most of the "bad mage" storys are bred from the oppression of the circles and the Templar Order.
Those specific incidents probably would not have happened, but that doesn't mean the world is sunshine and bunnies once the mages are free.
But hey, Tevinter is free from the oppression of the circles and the templars, and look how that turned out!
Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:07 .
KiwiQuiche wrote...
I'm of Merril's mentality when it comes to demons; they are simply people of another realm, the Fade. Sure you get the nasty ones like Rage and Pride, but not all are evil killing for teh lulz, like the Desire Demon and her Templar, who I let go.
Likewise Faith and Valiant and whatnot are fellow Fade residents and they help and aid people. As we saw with Justice, even the good can fall victims to extreme changes in personalities.
Demons and good spirits don't exist. They are just terms to 'seperpate' the same creatures with different motives and personalities.
It doesn't mean that no, but mages are not give the chance to prove otherwise, all that is proven is the circle breeds most mage crimes. Except...Palidane wrote...
Terrorize69 wrote...
You know.. if the circle didn't exist and mages weren't "taboo" then..
- Redcliffe would never of happened.
- The Ferelden circle would never of happened.
- Wilhelms story, a product also of the circle.
You'll find most of the "bad mage" storys are bred from the oppression of the circles and the Templar Order.
Those specific incidents probably would not have happened, but that doesn't mean the world is sunshine and bunnies once the mages are free.
But hey, Tevinter is free from the oppression of the circles and the templars, and look how that turned out!
GodWood wrote...
Regardless of how many lives it endangers and destroys amirite?Terrorize69 wrote...
Yes, you can and you should.
Freedom is the right of every sentient being.
Honestly, so long as these are the type of people debating the discussion is going to go no where. One side wishes to find a way that benefits all parties by ensuring protection and safety for all involved, the other wishes to uphold ideals regardless of the negative consequences it will bring.
BlueMagitek wrote...
KiwiQuiche wrote...
I'm of Merril's mentality when it comes to demons; they are simply people of another realm, the Fade. Sure you get the nasty ones like Rage and Pride, but not all are evil killing for teh lulz, like the Desire Demon and her Templar, who I let go.
Wait, wait. You did what? What do you think the desire demon is going to do once the Templar is dead?
When armies commit gross atrocities, they get punished for it. We have such a thing as a 'war crime'.Palidane wrote...
Plaintiff wrote...
The codex states it explicitly.Palidane wrote...
Plaintiff wrote...
It doesn't need to be when the majority of recruits are already zealots.
Which is funny, because you don't know that.
a). That was written by a First Enchanter. So tell me which modern nation would rather recruit moral soldiers who will constantly agonize over whether they should follow orders, or just recruit patriots. Being in an army is hard and requires hard choices. Your man can't back out.
The ones who lose, sure.Plaintiff wrote...
When armies commit gross atrocities, they get punished for it. We have such a thing as a 'war crime'.
Terrorize69 wrote...
You know.. if the circle didn't exist and mages weren't "taboo" then..TK514 wrote...
Terrorize69 wrote...
Yes, you can and you should.Palidane wrote...
For God's sake you people, templars are not oppressing mages cause they think it's lulzy. Mages are loaded guns. Every one of them. Not only are they people who have been given extreme power from birth with zero qualifications, they are always open to the influence of demons. We can't just let them waltz around and hope everything works out.
Freedom is the right of every sentient being.
Tell that to the people of Redcliffe.
Or even the mages of the Circle of Ferelden.
Or how about we take a look in Wilhelm's cellar. I'm sure there's nothing dodgy down there.
The Dalish, you say? Why, they've certainly been shown to have stable non-circle mages. You know, the sort of people who would never curse entire generations of innocent people or become possesed by Pride Demons.
And the Tevinter Imperium is a sparkling example of equality and temperance on the part of Mages.
The list goes on and on, showing exactly why the quarantine of Mages is necessary.
- Redcliffe would never of happened.
- The Ferelden circle would never of happened.
- Wilhelms story, a product also of the circle.
You'll find most of the "bad mage" storys are bred from the oppression of the circles and the Templar Order.
Palidane wrote...
I don't think anyone is arguing. Spirits and demons are the same species, but the difference is demons want to possess us and screw with humans, while spirits don't really care and leave us alone.
Plaintiff wrote...
When armies commit gross atrocities, they get punished for it. We have such a thing as a 'war crime'.Palidane wrote...
Plaintiff wrote...
The codex states it explicitly.Palidane wrote...
Plaintiff wrote...
It doesn't need to be when the majority of recruits are already zealots.
Which is funny, because you don't know that.
a). That was written by a First Enchanter
MisterJB wrote...
The ones who lose, sure.Plaintiff wrote...
When armies commit gross atrocities, they get punished for it. We have such a thing as a 'war crime'.
KiwiQuiche wrote...
BlueMagitek wrote...
KiwiQuiche wrote...
I'm of Merril's mentality when it comes to demons; they are simply people of another realm, the Fade. Sure you get the nasty ones like Rage and Pride, but not all are evil killing for teh lulz, like the Desire Demon and her Templar, who I let go.
Wait, wait. You did what? What do you think the desire demon is going to do once the Templar is dead?
Probably go play bingo and gossip with her girlfriends back in the Fade.
Russia. World War II.KiwiQuiche wrote...
...you can still be sentenced for war crimes even if you are on the winning side.
Justice was a freak occurence, and would definitely not happen under normal circumstances. Spirits, demon or otherwise, are creatures of the fade and do not belong here. Justice helped a lot of people when he was trapped in a decomposing body, but look what happened when he and Anders merged.hhh89 wrote...
Palidane wrote...
I don't think anyone is arguing. Spirits and demons are the same species, but the difference is demons want to possess us and screw with humans, while spirits don't really care and leave us alone.
Like Justice?
Palidane wrote...
Justice was a freak occurence, and would definitely not happen under normal circumstances. Spirits, demon or otherwise, are creatures of the fade and do not belong here. Justice helped a lot of people when he was trapped in a decomposing body, but look what happened when he and Anders merged.hhh89 wrote...
Palidane wrote...
I don't think anyone is arguing. Spirits and demons are the same species, but the difference is demons want to possess us and screw with humans, while spirits don't really care and leave us alone.
Like Justice?
Wilhelm was a product of the circle, he was their for maker knows how many years before his "freedom". There is no way to tell how life in the circle effected him.TK514 wrote...
Terrorize69 wrote...
You know.. if the circle didn't exist and mages weren't "taboo" then..TK514 wrote...
Terrorize69 wrote...
Yes, you can and you should.Palidane wrote...
For God's sake you people, templars are not oppressing mages cause they think it's lulzy. Mages are loaded guns. Every one of them. Not only are they people who have been given extreme power from birth with zero qualifications, they are always open to the influence of demons. We can't just let them waltz around and hope everything works out.
Freedom is the right of every sentient being.
Tell that to the people of Redcliffe.
Or even the mages of the Circle of Ferelden.
Or how about we take a look in Wilhelm's cellar. I'm sure there's nothing dodgy down there.
The Dalish, you say? Why, they've certainly been shown to have stable non-circle mages. You know, the sort of people who would never curse entire generations of innocent people or become possesed by Pride Demons.
And the Tevinter Imperium is a sparkling example of equality and temperance on the part of Mages.
The list goes on and on, showing exactly why the quarantine of Mages is necessary.
- Redcliffe would never of happened.
- The Ferelden circle would never of happened.
- Wilhelms story, a product also of the circle.
You'll find most of the "bad mage" storys are bred from the oppression of the circles and the Templar Order.
Wilhelm was not a product of the circle. He was, explicitly, a mage given permission to live outside the circle with zero oversight or restrictions. He was even allowed a family. He was, in fact, indistinguishable from any other citizen of Ferelden, save he was a mage.
Connor's story would have happened without the circle, because the core of the problem is that he's a little boy who wants his father to get well. In fact, Connor's story would not have happened had he been sent to the Circle. It is one of the exact situations that the Circle is supposed to prevent.
Uldred still would have happened, it just would have happened to some random village where they had even less chance to stop him. Because that's the sort of person Uldred was. He was at best a closet mage supremecist, as evidenced by his very first appearance where he dismissed the need for any non-mage help.
So when exactly is America going to answer for the crimes of the nuclear bombs? Cause to my knowledge that isn't exactly on the horizon...KiwiQuiche wrote...
MisterJB wrote...
The ones who lose, sure.Plaintiff wrote...
When armies commit gross atrocities, they get punished for it. We have such a thing as a 'war crime'.
...you can still be sentenced for war crimes even if you are on the winning side.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So when exactly is America going to answer for the crimes of the nuclear bombs? Cause to my knowledge that isn't exactly on the horizon...KiwiQuiche wrote...
MisterJB wrote...
The ones who lose, sure.Plaintiff wrote...
When armies commit gross atrocities, they get punished for it. We have such a thing as a 'war crime'.
...you can still be sentenced for war crimes even if you are on the winning side.
So because someone gets away with something, all other obviously criminal activities should be ignored?EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So when exactly is America going to answer for the crimes of the nuclear bombs? Cause to my knowledge that isn't exactly on the horizon...KiwiQuiche wrote...
MisterJB wrote...
The ones who lose, sure.Plaintiff wrote...
When armies commit gross atrocities, they get punished for it. We have such a thing as a 'war crime'.
...you can still be sentenced for war crimes even if you are on the winning side.
anora says that her father has gone mad and she seeks help to escape as shes been imprisoned by howe, loghains lackey. i never said was a poor leader. loghain wishes to use anora as a puppetDarkKnightHolmes wrote...
alhamel94 wrote...
because the dwarves political system was so incredibly broken and regressive. cailan and anora proposed a much more progressive system and gave up the hatred of orlais. because of this loghain attempted to seize control and try to put ferelden behind. basically they both had mad power grabs but bhelen actually made things betterDarkKnightHolmes wrote...
alhamel94 wrote...
hush hush lord bhelen is a magnificent ruler who is pushing against the darkspawn and reclaiming lost thaigs whilst bringing orzammar into the dragon ageDarkKnightHolmes wrote...
General User wrote...
You mage supporters sure do love your genocide fantasies.DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
Terrorize69 wrote...
If all non mages were dead, no one would whine about mages.alhamel94 wrote...
if the mages were all dead the atrocities could not happen
This person, he/she understands.
After seeing the type of people of the templars, the chantry, the nobles and the dwarfs are, I can't really say I'll miss them.
While killing his father and brother and throwing his other brother to the pit on purpose. I can never understand how people support him but whine about Loghain and Anora.
Loghain doesn't want power. He just doesn't want the people to suffer in the hands of Orlais again. Really, Loghain hates power and he dislikes most nobility anyway.
Anora likes powers, that's for sure, but she's also a good leader and didn't kill anyone to get there unlike Bhelen. Oh and Anora epilogue show her to be a way better ruler than Alistair so yeah, Anora also made things better.
Bhelen kills just like Loghain but people are all ready to give him a pat on the back just because he didn't stab you in the back (Unless you're Dwarf noble) but Loghain and Anora do so they must be EVIL and power hungry while Bhelen is totally not that.
Bad King wrote...
Why isn't magic meant to rule over man? Mages are born to dominate the weak. The Imperium shall be reborn.
Modifié par hhh89, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:31 .
Terrorize69 wrote...
Wilhelm was a product of the circle, he was their for maker knows how many years before his "freedom". There is no way to tell how life in the circle effected him.
Connor was taught in secret by a rogue mage because his mother feared he'd go to the circle for his gifts. Had mages not been taboo, the training would not of been in secret and would of turned out much differently.
Again, there is no way to tell how the circle affected Uldreds view on the world. Had he not been inprisoned for maker knows how long, he may of turned out very different.
Basically, the root cause of a large sum of "bad mages" or "bad magically incidents" is the Circle.
Modifié par TK514, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:34 .
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