656 réponses à ce sujet

[Palidane]

Ok, let's try to move discussion along.

DA3 has just started and your an Inquisitor. Let's just say your job is to end the Mage-Templar War. The mages are holed up in Andoral's Reach, where they await the onslaught of the Templars, who have broken ties with the Chantry in order to kill more mages.

What do you do?

[alhamel94]

politics are fine here....
as long as they are the politics of thedas

[alhamel94]

Palidane wrote...

Ok, let's try to move discussion along.

DA3 has just started and your an Inquisitor. Let's just say your job is to end the Mage-Templar War. The mages are holed up in Andoral's Reach, where they await the onslaught of the Templars, who have broken ties with the Chantry in order to kill more mages.

What do you do?

i join the templars, mages are too dangerous

[GodWood]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
'Protection and safety' are how we ended up with the circles.

Which, when regulated properly, are perfectly fine systems.

As I've said before I'd happily live as a Circle mage.

All I know is, mages and mundanes coexist peacefully across hundreds of fantasy universes, many of them far worse places than Thedas ever was. We have literal hundreds of templates for a society that can accomodate both mages and mundanes without locking innocent people up.

I shouldn't have to point out why this is silly, right?

[KiwiQuiche]

I admit, I'm extremely impressed we haven't invoked Godwin's Law yet.

[Zkyire]

Palidane wrote...

Ok, let's try to move discussion along.

DA3 has just started and your an Inquisitor. Let's just say your job is to end the Mage-Templar War. The mages are holed up in Andoral's Reach, where they await the onslaught of the Templars, who have broken ties with the Chantry in order to kill more mages.

What do you do?

Even the way you phrased that is laced with bias.

[the_one_54321]

Palidane wrote...
Ok, let's try to move discussion along.

DA3 has just started and your an Inquisitor. Let's just say your job is to end the Mage-Templar War. The mages are holed up in Andoral's Reach, where they await the onslaught of the Templars, who have broken ties with the Chantry in order to kill more mages.

What do you do?

The mages are revolting against control and pose a serious threat to the land. Kill every last one of them.

[Palidane]

Zkyire wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Ok, let's try to move discussion along.

DA3 has just started and your an Inquisitor. Let's just say your job is to end the Mage-Templar War. The mages are holed up in Andoral's Reach, where they await the onslaught of the Templars, who have broken ties with the Chantry in order to kill more mages.

What do you do?

Even the way you phrased that is laced with bias.

It's basically true nonetheless. These guys saw Meredith's policy of "Mages? Why take the effort to sort out guilt and innocence when you can just kill them all?" and figured that was a great idea. 

[Terrorize69]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Palidane wrote...
Ok, let's try to move discussion along.

DA3 has just started and your an Inquisitor. Let's just say your job is to end the Mage-Templar War. The mages are holed up in Andoral's Reach, where they await the onslaught of the Templars, who have broken ties with the Chantry in order to kill more mages.

What do you do?

The mages are revolting against control and pose a serious threat to the land. Kill every last one of them.

Templars are also revolting.

Mage revolting for freedom, Templars revolting for control.

Templars are oath-breakers, they've abandoned their other duties, their Chantry. All they desire is bloodlust.

If theres no option to find peace and a common ground, I'll fight for the mages every single time.

"Enemies change along with the times, the flow of the ages, and we soldiers are forced to play along. I didn't raise ypu and shape you into the man you are today just so we could face each other in battle, a soldiers skills aren't meant to be used to hurt friends."

[TK514]

Palidane wrote...

Ok, let's try to move discussion along.

DA3 has just started and your an Inquisitor. Let's just say your job is to end the Mage-Templar War. The mages are holed up in Andoral's Reach, where they await the onslaught of the Templars, who have broken ties with the Chantry in order to kill more mages.

What do you do?

The Templars are in a tough spot here.  Normally, I'd say just maintain the seige of The Reach, because Mages need to eat just like everyone else.  Poison the water supplies, throw festering animal corpses over the walls, that sort of thing, and wait until desperation forces the mages out into open battle.

The main reason this doesn't seem to be a valid strategy for the Templars is because they are also fighting against time.  Since they have broken with the Chantry, the Templars have to bring the mages to battle and defeat them before the lyrium supply runs out.  That means instead of a protracted seige, the Templars are going to be forced into a costly assault.  That means breaking down the fortress and dealing with whatever horrors the more extremist mages have done to themselves and their supposed allies inside.  Avernus, Uldred and Orsino (And Decimus, and Grace, and....) give us some pretty good examples of what extremist mages will do when given the chance, and thus what the Templars will face once they get inside.  Past that, even should the Templars prevail, I'd say they're still in trouble.  Ultimately they have to secure another supply of Lyrium or cease to be a functioning organization. 

In the meantime, were I Justina and the Chantry, I would begin rebuilding the Chantry aligned Templars and Circles with an eye towards a more progressive and humane system of checks and balances.  I would make the Mages and Templars partners in the quarantine, rather than watcher and watched.  I'd also use the Chantry's considerable economic power to strengthen the monopolistic flow of lyrium from the dwarves to the Chantry.  I'd want the breakaway Templars to get just enough lyrium to deal with the rebel mages, and then cut off what remains of both sides.

If I'm a mage, I'm in the most trouble of all.  On one hand, I'm in a fortress besieged by an army that wants to kill me because I'm a mage.  On the other hand, I'm locked inside a fortress with a fair number of desperate people and lunatics who are going to start turning to blood magic once the lyrium runs out, and most likely going to start summoning demons and fade spirits to bolster their forces.  It's not much of a step before that sort of thing starts leading to sacrifice and possession.  In short, the mages have to win quickly and decisively enough to scatter and escape before they are destroyed from within, and even should that happen, life is looking pretty bleak.  A mage would spend the rest of their lives in fear, wondering if today is the day the mage hunters show up or, perhaps even worse, the day that friends and neighbors finally clue in to the fact that they have a mage among them and set up the bonfire in the middle of town.

Regardless of if they win or not, the Mages have chosen pretty much the single worst method they could have of gaining their 'freedom', because ultimately they will never be free.  Normal society simply has too much reason to fear them, and too many years of Andrastian reminders to hate them.  A smarter council of mages would have petitioned the Divine directly to address the worst of the abuses, and worked from within to change the system.  Now, I'm afraid it's too late for those who fled to the Reach.

Modifié par TK514, 25 octobre 2012 - 12:30 .

[the_one_54321]

Terrorize69 wrote...
Mage revolting for freedom, Templars revolting for control..

"Enemies change along with the times, the flow of the ages, and we soldiers are forced to play along. I didn't raise ypu and shape you into the man you are today just so we could face each other in battle, a soldiers skills aren't meant to be used to hurt friends."

Control is plainly more important. The mages are going to explode with time (literally). They need to be wiped out before they reshape an entire geographic locale.

I hate the pretense of gray here. I wish Slyvius was in this conversation. He at least wouldn't pretend there's some equalizing factor. There are two sides, each of which must annihilate the other to survive. Compromise could have prevented this, but it went out the window a long time ago.

[Vandicus]

Palidane wrote...

Ok, let's try to move discussion along.

DA3 has just started and your an Inquisitor. Let's just say your job is to end the Mage-Templar War. The mages are holed up in Andoral's Reach, where they await the onslaught of the Templars, who have broken ties with the Chantry in order to kill more mages.

What do you do?

Let them fight it out. If the templars win, take advantage of their weakened state to sweep in and neutralize the radical leadership(most likely by killing them given the strong loyalty of the troops to their commanders). Then use the structure of the Order to establish the Circles in a somewhat more humane fashion. If the mages win, bring up my own forces and demand that they surrender, though we can negotiate terms. If they refuse, recommence the siege until they capitulate. The radical leadership of the mages would not necessarily have to be killed, though they would need to be segregated from the general populace of the remanants of the mage army to prevent them rising up again.

[Terrorize69]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Mage revolting for freedom, Templars revolting for control..

"Enemies change along with the times, the flow of the ages, and we soldiers are forced to play along. I didn't raise ypu and shape you into the man you are today just so we could face each other in battle, a soldiers skills aren't meant to be used to hurt friends."

Control is plainly more important. The mages are going to explode with time (literally). They need to be wiped out before they reshape an entire geographic locale.

I hate the pretense of gray here. I wish Slyvius was in this conversation. He at least wouldn't pretend there's some equalizing factor. There are two sides, each of which must annihilate the other to survive. Compromise could have prevented this, but it went out the window a long time ago.

Control at the expense of genocide and oath-breaking, yes that sounds very important..

And no matter how hard the Templars try, they will never erase magic, ever.

There is only one side who wishes to annihilate and commit "genocide" and surprise surprise it's not the mages.

[alhamel94]

the mages must die. that way my dex tank can never die.

[Plaintiff]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Mage revolting for freedom, Templars revolting for control..

"Enemies change along with the times, the flow of the ages, and we soldiers are forced to play along. I didn't raise ypu and shape you into the man you are today just so we could face each other in battle, a soldiers skills aren't meant to be used to hurt friends."

Control is plainly more important. The mages are going to explode with time (literally). They need to be wiped out before they reshape an entire geographic locale.

I hate the pretense of gray here. I wish Slyvius was in this conversation. He at least wouldn't pretend there's some equalizing factor. There are two sides, each of which must annihilate the other to survive. Compromise could have prevented this, but it went out the window a long time ago.

Compromise was never a legitimate option before. The Chantry held all the power and the mages had none. The Circle was supposed to be a compromise when it was founded and it ultimately failed.

True compromise is only possible now, when both sides of the conflict are in fairly even positions.

[KDD-0063]

TK514 wrote...

Snipped some of the pyramid.

And there is absolutely zero causation between the circle and the abuses of Wilhelm or Connor, and only marginally Uldred because he was in a Circle when his pride got the better of him.

Yet the Circle is explicitly designed to prevent both Wilhelm and Connor's situations.  Had both been in the Circle, Connor's situation never would have come up, and if Wilhelm did still go ahead with his demon studies somehow, the results would have been contained by the people best equipped to deal with them, instead of waiting to be unleashed by an innocent little girl on an isolated villiage in the middle of nowhere.

In fact, the Circle DID work when it came to containing Uldred.  Instead of him bargaining away his soul in some defenseless town or villiage, he was immediately contained and the damage he could do was minimized.

Connor and Uldred had the same problem:  They were both mages who would do anything, and make any deal, to get what they wanted.  The only difference is that what Connor wanted was born of love and Uldred's wants were born of pride.

In all three situations, given what we are explicity shown, the Circle is the answer, not the problem.

Here, the problem is obvious. The circle is surely great ... and let us make it a prison.
And that is explicitly the reason why these three mages want to stay away from the circle.
It would be much better had the circle been a simple magic academy.

Also Uldred would not bargain his soul away in some defenseless town. For a senior enchanter, bargain with demon is clearly a last resort.

[TK514]

Plaintiff wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Mage revolting for freedom, Templars revolting for control..

"Enemies change along with the times, the flow of the ages, and we soldiers are forced to play along. I didn't raise ypu and shape you into the man you are today just so we could face each other in battle, a soldiers skills aren't meant to be used to hurt friends."

Control is plainly more important. The mages are going to explode with time (literally). They need to be wiped out before they reshape an entire geographic locale.

I hate the pretense of gray here. I wish Slyvius was in this conversation. He at least wouldn't pretend there's some equalizing factor. There are two sides, each of which must annihilate the other to survive. Compromise could have prevented this, but it went out the window a long time ago.

Compromise was never a legitimate option before. The Chantry held all the power and the mages had none. The Circle was supposed to be a compromise when it was founded and it ultimately failed.

True compromise is only possible now, when both sides of the conflict are in fairly even positions.

Unfortunately, the mages in the Reach cut ties with the only people who were willing to compromise, and put themselves in a position where they would be unable to start talks even if they wanted to.  In short, the two sides are anything but equal.  Even without the Templars, the mages live in a world that despises and/or would destroy them them for one reason or another.  Cutting ties with the Chantry and pointing out that they are a body of people who must be taken seriously in war only strengthens the belief of the common man that mages are a threat that must be contained or destroyed.  The Qunari are absolutely not going to take them, and the Tevinter Magisters are going to see any immigrant mages as potential threats to be destroyed or imprisoned and used because power in Tevinter is a zero sum game.

The only chance the Circle Mages had was to work with a sympathetic Justina to change both their living situation and to modify the teachings against them, so that years from now mages could live in peace without being feared, and they threw that chance away.

[TK514]

KDD-0063 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Snipped some of the pyramid.

And there is absolutely zero causation between the circle and the abuses of Wilhelm or Connor, and only marginally Uldred because he was in a Circle when his pride got the better of him.

Yet the Circle is explicitly designed to prevent both Wilhelm and Connor's situations.  Had both been in the Circle, Connor's situation never would have come up, and if Wilhelm did still go ahead with his demon studies somehow, the results would have been contained by the people best equipped to deal with them, instead of waiting to be unleashed by an innocent little girl on an isolated villiage in the middle of nowhere.

In fact, the Circle DID work when it came to containing Uldred.  Instead of him bargaining away his soul in some defenseless town or villiage, he was immediately contained and the damage he could do was minimized.

Connor and Uldred had the same problem:  They were both mages who would do anything, and make any deal, to get what they wanted.  The only difference is that what Connor wanted was born of love and Uldred's wants were born of pride.

In all three situations, given what we are explicity shown, the Circle is the answer, not the problem.

Here, the problem is obvious. The circle is surely great ... and let us make it a prison.
And that is explicitly the reason why these three mages want to stay away from the circle.
It would be much better had the circle been a simple magic academy.

Also Uldred would not bargain his soul away in some defenseless town. For a senior enchanter, bargain with demon is clearly a last resort.

It was more of a leper colony than a prison, and for very good reasons, as already illustrated.

Edit:  And Connor's actions had nothing to do with fear of being sent to the Circle.  His motivation was purely and simply to save his father at any cost.  The only way, in fact, to have prevented what happened in Redcliffe would have been to send him to the Circle, where they would have cut ties with his parents.  And they would have cut ties with his parents for this very reason.

Modifié par TK514, 25 octobre 2012 - 12:55 .

[Plaintiff]

TK514 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Mage revolting for freedom, Templars revolting for control..

"Enemies change along with the times, the flow of the ages, and we soldiers are forced to play along. I didn't raise ypu and shape you into the man you are today just so we could face each other in battle, a soldiers skills aren't meant to be used to hurt friends."

Control is plainly more important. The mages are going to explode with time (literally). They need to be wiped out before they reshape an entire geographic locale.

I hate the pretense of gray here. I wish Slyvius was in this conversation. He at least wouldn't pretend there's some equalizing factor. There are two sides, each of which must annihilate the other to survive. Compromise could have prevented this, but it went out the window a long time ago.

Compromise was never a legitimate option before. The Chantry held all the power and the mages had none. The Circle was supposed to be a compromise when it was founded and it ultimately failed.

True compromise is only possible now, when both sides of the conflict are in fairly even positions.

Unfortunately, the mages in the Reach cut ties with the only people who were willing to compromise, and put themselves in a position where they would be unable to start talks even if they wanted to.  In short, the two sides are anything but equal.  Even without the Templars, the mages live in a world that despises and/or would destroy them them for one reason or another.  Cutting ties with the Chantry and pointing out that they are a body of people who must be taken seriously in war only strengthens the belief of the common man that mages are a threat that must be contained or destroyed.  The Qunari are absolutely not going to take them, and the Tevinter Magisters are going to see any immigrant mages as potential threats to be destroyed or imprisoned and used because power in Tevinter is a zero sum game.

The only chance the Circle Mages had was to work with a sympathetic Justina to change both their living situation and to modify the teachings against them, so that years from now mages could live in peace without being feared, and they threw that chance away.

I don't think Justinia would've been very helpful. Seems to me that she was only granting minor concessions in a last minute bid to prevent an open rebellion. It was in her own best interests to be "sympathetic". Sacrificing some control in order to keep most of it was the smartest strategy, if not her only one.

It might've worked, for a time, except she's apparently incapable of reining in her other subordinates.

But it doesn't matter how sympathetic Justinia might be, because she would eventually be replaced, most likely by a Divine who was less reasonable. The Chantry's general stance on mages and magic would remain unchanged, and that is where the root of the problem lies.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

alhamel94 wrote...

the mages must die. that way my dex tank can never die.

What about Wynne? Say what you will about her personality, but it seems to me she's more help than harm in that regard.

[Plaintiff]

TK514 wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Snipped some of the pyramid.

And there is absolutely zero causation between the circle and the abuses of Wilhelm or Connor, and only marginally Uldred because he was in a Circle when his pride got the better of him.

Yet the Circle is explicitly designed to prevent both Wilhelm and Connor's situations.  Had both been in the Circle, Connor's situation never would have come up, and if Wilhelm did still go ahead with his demon studies somehow, the results would have been contained by the people best equipped to deal with them, instead of waiting to be unleashed by an innocent little girl on an isolated villiage in the middle of nowhere.

In fact, the Circle DID work when it came to containing Uldred.  Instead of him bargaining away his soul in some defenseless town or villiage, he was immediately contained and the damage he could do was minimized.

Connor and Uldred had the same problem:  They were both mages who would do anything, and make any deal, to get what they wanted.  The only difference is that what Connor wanted was born of love and Uldred's wants were born of pride.

In all three situations, given what we are explicity shown, the Circle is the answer, not the problem.

Here, the problem is obvious. The circle is surely great ... and let us make it a prison.
And that is explicitly the reason why these three mages want to stay away from the circle.
It would be much better had the circle been a simple magic academy.

Also Uldred would not bargain his soul away in some defenseless town. For a senior enchanter, bargain with demon is clearly a last resort.

It was more of a leper colony than a prison, and for very good reasons, as already illustrated.

Edit:  And Connor's actions had nothing to do with fear of being sent to the Circle.  His motivation was purely and simply to save his father at any cost.  The only way, in fact, to have prevented what happened in Redcliffe would have been to send him to the Circle, where they would have cut ties with his parents.  And they would have cut ties with his parents for this very reason.

Or the Circle could be set up differently so that parents weren't tempted to hide their mage children in the first place. Or it could allow for a certified mage to go to Redcliffe and tutor Connor, so that Isolde didn't have to turn to an apostate who was himself not fully trained.

There are plenty of ways that situations like Connor's could be prevented, if the Chantry and Templars were more reasonable.

[LobselVith8]

Palidane wrote...

DA3 has just started and your an Inquisitor. Let's just say your job is to end the Mage-Templar War. The mages are holed up in Andoral's Reach, where they await the onslaught of the Templars, who have broken ties with the Chantry in order to kill more mages.

What do you do?

Side with the mages at Androal's Reach, since my Inquisitor is a blood mage who wants autonomy for his people. With blood magic, templars can't shut down his magical abilities.

[alhamel94]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

alhamel94 wrote...

the mages must die. that way my dex tank can never die.

What about Wynne? Say what you will about her personality, but it seems to me she's more help than harm in that regard.

but mages are the only ones that do damage. i have to put at least one character on mage killer duty

[TK514]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

alhamel94 wrote...

the mages must die. that way my dex tank can never die.

What about Wynne? Say what you will about her personality, but it seems to me she's more help than harm in that regard.

Even Wynne is an example of how dangerous mages can be.  Even Wynne, who is a generally well regarded character, fell to the posession of a fade spirit in a time of duress.  She, and the Warden, are fortunate that it happened to be a benevolent spirit instead of a malevolent one, but it didn't have to end that way.  And, as Justice clearly illustrates, there's no guarantee it will stay that way.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Palidane wrote...

Ok, let's try to move discussion along.

DA3 has just started and your an Inquisitor. Let's just say your job is to end the Mage-Templar War. The mages are holed up in Andoral's Reach, where they await the onslaught of the Templars, who have broken ties with the Chantry in order to kill more mages.

What do you do?

Call for surrender. Wait a couple of hours. Then wipe out the Templar order.