656 réponses à ce sujet

[alhamel94]

GodWood wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
Okay, let's go over this again:

You're not allowed to lock away innocent people to make yourself feel safer.

How is this a controversial statement?

A small population of people are carriers of an infectious deadly disease.

Instead of quarantining said people you allow the infection to spread and kill countless innocents in the name of liberty.

why not the people with the plague are innocent they have done nothing wrong. it is mean to imprison them

[Shadow Fox]

Plaintiff wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Regular humans are just as susceptible. Lady Harriman wasn't a mage. The templars that were possessed in DA2 and DA:O were not mages.

Lady Harriman was a mage and the Templar were possessed because Blood Mages forced the demons inside of them.

All things that could've been easily prevented if the Chantry hadn't spread all that mage-hate around to begin with.

Mage-hate existed long before the Chantry spread it around, it's the entire reason behind the Inquisition in the first place.

Because the only way to deal with disobedient children is merciless beatings!

... I won't even bother responding to this.

And most of the pro mage people forget it was the Chantry that reformed the witch hunting Inquistion into an organization that didn't kill mages on sight.

Because it wanted to keep them so it could use their power for its own selfish reasons. What saints.

Wrong the Circle was formed to appease mages who didn't want to be stuck simply lighting candles.

[Palidane]

Hey Plaintiff, why do you hate the Chantry this much?

[Dave of Canada]

alhamel94 wrote...

why not the people with the plague are innocent they have done nothing wrong. it is mean to imprison them

Because the good of the many outweigh the good of the few. Innocence has nothing to do with it, it's all about logistics and sense.

[Vit246]

EDIT:

Again with that damn "quarantine" argument. As if mages are ready to spontaneously explode or become possessed.

There are already existing free mages peacefully integrated into their respective society.

Rivain, the Dalish, the Chasind, even Tevinter.

Tevinter may be a freaking dictatorship ruled by unethical mages, but its stable and functional in its own way.  The only problem is the lack of ethics.

Modifié par Vit246, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:53 .

[alhamel94]

Palidane wrote...

Hey Plaintiff, why do you hate the Chantry this much?

to be fair i oppose the chantry as well, yeah it might do some charity work but really it serves no useful purpose, except for keeping mages in line. but i do think this would be done perfectly fine without it.  the whole andraste chant of light how the darkspawn were made thing just doesnt sit well with me. but that is getting into my own personal real life beliefs so this should probably stop here

[The Hierophant]

Vit246 wrote...

Again with that damn "quarantine" argument. As if mages are ready to spontaneously explode or become possessed.

There are already existing free mages peacefully integrated into their respective society.

Rivain, the Dalish, the Chasind, even Tevinter.

Tevinter may be a freaking dictatorship ruled by unethical mages, but at least its stable. 

The Tevinter use a circle system, and had templars.

[alhamel94]

Vit246 wrote...

Again with that damn "quarantine" argument. As if mages are ready to spontaneously explode or become possessed.

There are already existing free mages peacefully integrated into their respective society.

Rivain, the Dalish, the Chasind, even Tevinter.

Tevinter may be a freaking dictatorship ruled by unethical mages, but at least its stable. 

so yeah tevinter we have reason to believe is terrible, the dalish you gotta be kidding me the only dalish mage we have actually seen was lanaya.

Modifié par alhamel94, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:51 .

[alhamel94]

Dave of Canada wrote...

alhamel94 wrote...

why not the people with the plague are innocent they have done nothing wrong. it is mean to imprison them

Because the good of the many outweigh the good of the few. Innocence has nothing to do with it, it's all about logistics and sense.

yes because if you read my post again you can see it was never meant to be sarcastic

[The Hierophant]

alhamel94 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

alhamel94 wrote...

why not the people with the plague are innocent they have done nothing wrong. it is mean to imprison them

Because the good of the many outweigh the good of the few. Innocence has nothing to do with it, it's all about logistics and sense.

yes because if you read my post again you can see it was never meant to be sarcastic

Sarcasm is hard to detect when people tend to make similar posts while being deadly serious.

[GodWood]

Vit246 wrote...
EDIT:
Again with that damn "quarantine" argument..

A perfectly apt analogy if you took the time to note the context in which it was used.

[Palidane]

Vit246 wrote...

EDIT:

Again with that damn "quarantine" argument. As if mages are ready to spontaneously explode or become possessed.

There are already existing free mages peacefully integrated into their respective society.

Rivain, the Dalish, the Chasind, even Tevinter.

Tevinter may be a freaking dictatorship ruled by unethical mages, but its stable and functional in its own way.  The only problem is the lack of ethics.

I hate these arguments.

1. Rivain has a circle and templars. The seers and shamans are on the run from the Templars. Mages are not living the dream in Rivain.

2.Tevinter is a god forsaken hellhole where magisters cut up children and use their blood to make magical fireworks. The slave trade flourishes, commoners are sent to die against the Qunari, it basically sucks for everyone. Kind like if everyone lived in the Kirkwall Circle, except way worse. So, what your saying is "Go to Tevinter. Sure, it's the worst place on the face of Thedas and you'll die after a miserable, short existence, but at least it won't collapse! Oh wait! The economy is on the verge of collapse because Tevinter can't keep up with the constand demands of their war in the north!"

3. The Dalish. I mean really guys? We've run into the keepers of 3 different clans, and every one of them has gotten somebody killed. Let's go down the list.
a). Zathrian flips out and dooms hundreds to wander the woods, mindlessly attacking people while in constant, never ending pain. Only the first dozen or so werewolves were actually guilty of anything. He then repeatedly ignores their pleas for help, and then still wants to genocide the once again completely innocent werewolves because he's pissed off over something somebody else did 300 years ago. Gotta love that functioning society.
. Velanna jumps to conclusions and blames the humans for an attack on her clan. Despite obvious evidence she is in the wrong, she gleefully goes on to slaughter a bunch of completely innocent merchants. In fairness, this could have happened if she wasn't a mage, but I'm pretty sure she would have sat down and thought a bit more if she had to exact her righteous vengeance with say, a bow or sword. And if she went through with it, the merchants would be able to take out one elf, and about 30 innocent people would be ok.
c). Merrill. Where do I even start with this one. If it weren't for my Hawke, this moron would have killed her entire clan while insisting it wasnt her fault and everyone was out to get her. I managed the damage so she only got her Keeper and surrogate mother killed because she was too stupid and headstrong to realize dealing with demons is bad, m'kay. But without me, we would have yet another massacre by the supposedly stable Dalish society.

So for the record, thats 3 out of 5 psycho Dalish mages. One per clan. 

4. The Chasind I guess I have to technically give you. But we don't know anything about their culture, so you can't really assume its some mage paradise. In fact, I bet they have similar statistics to the Dalish.

So thats 0.5/4 stable mage-loving societies. Just for the record.

Modifié par Palidane, 25 octobre 2012 - 03:17 .

[Dean_the_Young]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
When armies commit gross atrocities, they get punished for it. We have such a thing as a 'war crime'.

The ones who lose, sure.

...you can still be sentenced for war crimes even if you are on the winning side.

Only if your side gives a damn, and even then there's a lot more wiggleroom than most would care to admit due to institutional biases and local-level coverups.

Perhaps the best example of the nature of warcrimes and responsibility came from Nuremburg, where the Soviets accussed the Germans of unjust invasion of Poland, the British brought up city bombings, and the Americans lambasted submarine warfare.

[Dean_the_Young]

As for the thread title, I'll just point out that it's a quote that's a bit misleading.

Mage Liberation ideology doesn't embrace mages having the same rights as the mundanes: it embraces the rights of mages to have all the rights of mundanes and the right to practice and use their innate and unique powers.

As this is a right that will never be applicable by the mundane masses, by securing it along with all others you are effectively giving the mages more rights than the rest. And given the dominant advantage provided by magic to most mundane equivalents, securing a freedom to use exclusive dominant advantages is a systemic bias towards 'ruling', as the people with the most advantages naturally and gradually aggregate power and more advantages until they do become dominant.

[Dave of Canada]

Vit246 wrote...

Again with that damn "quarantine" argument. As if mages are ready to spontaneously explode or become possessed.

They are and it's the most apt analogy.

There are already existing free mages peacefully integrated into their respective society.

Different societies play differently, surprise?

Rivain

Dismissing the Circle and Templar stationed there, it still has abomination issues. They simply bury the dead and accept it as a worthwhile cost to keep their seers, not everyone approves of this but it's simply how Rivain is run.

the Dalish

Restricts how many mages are allowed within one clan and has the clan always on the ready to hunt down the Keeper should it reach that far, in addition to being nomads which allow them far more leniance than allowing mages to intergrate into a full fledge society.

In addition, most Dalish we've seen aren't exactly the best mages ever.

the Chasind

Aside from the restrictions, practically the same behavior as the Dalish. They're more primitive and they still deal with abominations.

even Tevinter.

Still takes the children away from the parents to grow in Circles, teaching them the fundamentals of magic and then throws them into a dog-eat-dog world still policed by Templar. Considering they've got the majority of the same rules as the rest of Thedas, it shows the Chantry has something right.

The noticable difference is mages play power games and whoever is strongest rules, the non-mages are treated like dirt because they're not equals--something which Thedas as a whole fears will occur again, something which some mages shown signs of leaning on.

alhamel94 wrote...

yes because if you read my post again you can see it was never meant to be sarcastic

It's hard to tell sarcasm when people actually use said points in arguments I've had over the years.

[TK514]

Plaintiff wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Any situation that doesn't cut ties between Connor and his parents doesn't prevent what happened in Redcliffe.  Connor had a child's love for a parent, and, as a child, did anything he could to save said parent.

Which would've been completely unnecessary if Isolde had a legitimate mage tutor for Connor because Loghain wouldn't be able to manipulate Jowan to poison Eamon in the first place. Do you see how that works?

How come people look at Connor's situation and say "mage kids need to be locked up", instead of saying "poisoning people's parents is bad, mmmkay"?

Oh, right, because Jowan was the only possible way Loghain could have gotten someone to poison Eamon.  Sure.  Not that it matters.  If Eamon fell off a horse, got a cold, got stabbed in battle, stubbed his toe, whatever, the result would have been the same.  Connor would have made a deal with the demon to fix his dad.

[TK514]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Any situation that doesn't cut ties between Connor and his parents doesn't prevent what happened in Redcliffe.  Connor had a child's love for a parent, and, as a child, did anything he could to save said parent.

Right, because this policy worked out beautifully for the Jedi.

If your plan for dealing with a group of supernaturally empowered people involved removing the ties that bind them to the rest of humanity, please stop.

I wondered how long it would take for someone to bring up the Jedi.

The same Jedi who used that method  for thousands of years with great results.  It worked so well, and created such a stable Order, that it took the direct manipulation of the greatest Sith Lord in Galacitc history for the system to finally unravel.

So, sure.  The Jedi way.

[Plaintiff]

Palidane wrote...

Hey Plaintiff, why do you hate the Chantry this much?

Several reasons.

1) The Chantry is a bully. It uses its own religious dogma to create an oppressive system that is inherently abusive, and not even just to mages, which we've already discussed extensively. Templars suffer under Chantry rule by being force-fed lyrium, an addictive substance. If they find that they don't like being Templars, they can't leave. 

Elves suffer because the Chantry used its rhetoric to justify invading, subjugating them and obliterating most of their history and culture.

2) The Chantry is incredibly hypocritical. It ignored the historical contributions the elves had made to free Andraste's followers from the enslavement of the Tevinter Imperium, and removed the Book of Shartan from the Chant of Light. It did these things in order to justify attacking the elves of the Dales.

It preaches the "evils" and "dangers" of magic and mages, and uses this stance as the excuse to deny the general public access to services like healing and enchantment,  but sees nothing wrong with using these resources to consolidate and/or maintain it's own authority (using mages as a military force against the Qunari, etc). It brings the mages out when it suits them to do so, and then shuts them back up again without even having the common courtesy to thank them for their valuable service.

3) The Chantry is incredibly selfish. This should be self-evident, given point 2, but I shall reiterate nonetheless: The Chantry hoards a valuable resource (magic), denying the massive potential benefits to society at large while freely using that same resource whenever it suits them to do so.

You'll probably say "Ohhhh, but what about all the orphans the Chantry takes in? What about in Lothering and Redcliffe where the Chantry was used as shelter? What about the poor people it collects donations for?", to which I say the Chantry does not deserve credit for simply looking after its own. It is in the Chantry's own best interests to try and prevent the slaughter of its own adherents. Bullies are nice to their friends, but that doesn't change the fact that they are bullies.

The Chantry isn't just guilty of hoarding magic and lyrium, but also physical wealth. In any given city, town, village or settlement, the Chantry is the largest building and the most lavishly decorated, with perhaps the exception of the local lord's keep. If the Chantry in Kirkwall, just as an example, were serious about helping the "less fortunate", then it could sell off its tapestries and paintings, and its hundred-foot-high golden statues.

Furthermore, Meredith blatantly violated the Chantry's own laws by taking de facto control over the city. She even tried to force Aveline to cede authority of the city guard over to the Templars.

The position of Viscount is supposed to be decided by the nobility, not the Templars. If the Chantry had any respect for secular authority, or even cared about simply following its own goddamn rules, it would have reined Meredith in, if not expelled her from the organization outright. The fact that it took no such action absolutely proves that it cares for nothing beyond the increase and maintenance of its own authority.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:28 .

[Shadow Fox]

TK514 wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Any situation that doesn't cut ties between Connor and his parents doesn't prevent what happened in Redcliffe.  Connor had a child's love for a parent, and, as a child, did anything he could to save said parent.

Right, because this policy worked out beautifully for the Jedi.

If your plan for dealing with a group of supernaturally empowered people involved removing the ties that bind them to the rest of humanity, please stop.

I wondered how long it would take for someone to bring up the Jedi.

The same Jedi who used that method  for thousands of years with great results.  It worked so well, and created such a stable Order, that it took the direct manipulation of the greatest Sith Lord in Galacitc history for the system to finally unravel.

So, sure.  The Jedi way.

Plus the Jedi take them before they can form atachments that's one of the reasons why they didn't want Anakin to become one of them.

[Plaintiff]

TK514 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Any situation that doesn't cut ties between Connor and his parents doesn't prevent what happened in Redcliffe.  Connor had a child's love for a parent, and, as a child, did anything he could to save said parent.

Which would've been completely unnecessary if Isolde had a legitimate mage tutor for Connor because Loghain wouldn't be able to manipulate Jowan to poison Eamon in the first place. Do you see how that works?

How come people look at Connor's situation and say "mage kids need to be locked up", instead of saying "poisoning people's parents is bad, mmmkay"?

Oh, right, because Jowan was the only possible way Loghain could have gotten someone to poison Eamon.  Sure.  Not that it matters.  If Eamon fell off a horse, got a cold, got stabbed in battle, stubbed his toe, whatever, the result would have been the same.  Connor would have made a deal with the demon to fix his dad.

Taking Connor away from his father would produce a different result? Prove it.

If Connor doesn't want his father to die, that would suggest that he wants to see him occasionally. Something the Circle would not allow

Modifié par Plaintiff, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:25 .

[oberst2]

silentassassin264 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
Yes it does.  The Chantry teaches that mages are to be feared so the common folks are afraid of the mages.  The mages are locked up "for their own safety" so you don't have villages trying to kill the witchkid.  The mages often resent being locked up and you often get Anders or blood mages.  Either one proves that the Chantry is right that mages will resort to forbidden magic and/or be general menaces to society and the cycle continues.  

Very well. Let's say the Chantry didn't teach people to fear mages. Now they're just children who can sneeze and suddenly the whole room is on fire and adults who can kill you with a snap of their fingers and make everyone forget you ever existed with a slit on the wrist. You think they won't be feared?

And there are many mages who never suffered any opression and decided to use blood magic. People will use whatever means available to rise in life. And mages have acess to resources mundanes can only dream about.

No one is saying mages are not supposed to learn how to control magic.  All the have to do is have a school in each Chantry with and Enchanter to train any of the local mage kiddies.  If you don't villify the mages you would also have plenty willing to work with you and your templars so if you have a rogue mage villain, you would have good magic on the side of the law and order.  It is like guns in real life.  A two year old can accidentally kill you with it or an adult douche can kill you with one.  We also happen to have cops with guns so one jerk with a gun (or several jerks with guns) cannot destroy a whole town.  

And yes there are people who used blood magic without being forced.  You will always have power hungry people (and blood magic itself is not evil.   The chantry just doesn't like it because they can't control it.  Merrill was not running around murdering people for lulz).  But guess what?  You don't need magic to do unspeakable acts of evil.  Arl Howe, Harwen Raleigh (the dragon summoner), Branka, etc. all proved you could be a powerful sociopath without the use of magic. 

bump

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Any situation that doesn't cut ties between Connor and his parents doesn't prevent what happened in Redcliffe.  Connor had a child's love for a parent, and, as a child, did anything he could to save said parent.

Which would've been completely unnecessary if Isolde had a legitimate mage tutor for Connor because Loghain wouldn't be able to manipulate Jowan to poison Eamon in the first place. Do you see how that works?

How come people look at Connor's situation and say "mage kids need to be locked up", instead of saying "poisoning people's parents is bad, mmmkay"?

Becasue it doesn't matter what caused Eamon to fall ill.
What if it was simply old age? What if Connors puppy died?

Like it or not, poeple will be faced trought their whole lives with situations like that. Plenty of opportunities for temptation and desire.

Demons prey on emotional instability. Yanking young children away from
their parents, dragging them across the country and shutting them up in a
tower is not generally conducive to the cultivation of happy and
healthy adults.

It's not the least bit surprising that many Circle Mages go insane or turn to demons and blood magic. What is surprising is that there are any sane mages at all.

And yet, we see planty of mages that ARE healthy adults.

Obviously at some points the Chantry saw that removing demons point of influence makes the situation better. They didn't institue that for sh**s and giggles. The Circles after all, have a 1000 years of history.

Oh, btw - parents can visit children.

The Circle prevents nothing. Mages
and non-mages alike get possessed regardless. We only have the
Chantry's word for it that things would be worse wthout their oversight,
and they have every incentive to lie to us.

This is exactly where you are wrong.
Say a mage is possesed. Abominations forms as a result.
You are telling me that abomination being contained in a Circle and neutralized and not killing hundered in a vaillage accomplishes nothing?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 25 octobre 2012 - 07:22 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

And the Templar were possessed because Blood Mages forced the demons inside of them.

But Keran was able to resist, as far as we've seen. And there's no indication that the blood mages in DA:O did anything of the kind. Uldred was turning senior mages into abominations, but the Templars on the lower levels of the tower could have easily succumbed on their own.

Word of god on this is that normal people are preacticly invisible to demons and that normal people being possesed is very rare.
Given what we saw uldred do and how he tore the veil open in the Circle...

Mage-hate existed long before the Chantry spread it around, it's the entire reason behind the Inquisition in the first place.

Our modern, Western society used to hate lots of things, but we got over it by and large by shutting up and/or ignoring the people who continue to toss bigotry around. The Chantry keeps the mage-hate fresh in the minds of people who have likely never encountered a mage, by spouting baseless assumptions that cannot be proven.

Not biggorty - common sense.
The danger of mages is factual and proven again and again every day.

[BerzerkGene]

I mostly go with Mages, But sven then i don't mean EVERYONE POWER UP WITH BLOOD MAGIC RARGH! No, thats stupid and probably leads to more problems.
I've never picked any kind of blood magic specialization because...well health is important and it didn't really have any appeal over spirit healer or anything in origins and force mage had enough firepower for me in DA2.

But say the Circle mages i would side with. Because most of them are seriously oppressed, theres things like rape and beatings and taking away a person's emotions if they start talking of ideas that aren't the same as the Chantry's/Templar's. And then there was that guy who was implied to basically use the Tranquil basically as sex slaves. Plus, call me crazy, but growing up without your parents might be a bit too much of a restriction, at least let their parents visit them.
What i don't like is all the implications that Magic is evil or a curse when supposedly the Maker creates everyone, so the magic would come from the Maker. But i dislike religion on the whole, so that might be my own prejudice seeping through.
But i'll always help out Wynne and her friends. I like Wynne.

And i would side with the Dalish too. Zathrian was the only one of their mages thats intentions were truly bad, revenge okay, but for centuries, its a bit much.

But mages like Flemeth and Morrigan? Well Morrigan's on my side(and is the mother of my Warden's Godchild) so thats fine. But Flemeth is weird. I killed her once though, so i figure my Arcane Warrior Warden with his power to render himself basically immortal could probably match her at full strength. If possible though, i would rather not fight her again, dragons are tough.

If possible though i'd try to make them get along. A templar and mage army together would be a formidable force, with the Qunari needing a new Arishok, they might be needed to stop them. But Templars serving as Warriors and Guards with Mages as Artillery and Scholars/Healers/Advisers working together instead of segregation would be my choice. Just outlaw blood magic and anything immoral that the templars may do. If someone is accused of something have a goddamn trial, with two judges, a mage and a templar, or three with a chantry dude or dudette as the third.

Or just let my Warden, Hawke and the new guy take charge, couldn't do any worse.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Vit246 wrote...

EDIT:

Again with that damn "quarantine" argument. As if mages are ready to spontaneously explode or become possessed.

There are already existing free mages peacefully integrated into their respective society.

Rivain, the Dalish, the Chasind, even Tevinter.

Tevinter may be a freaking dictatorship ruled by unethical mages, but its stable and functional in its own way.  The only problem is the lack of ethics.

You mean the Dalish, who are a band of romign, nomadic clans? Who have clans go missing (guess why)?
Who's only two clans we've seen are both brough to ruin by their mage leaders?

You mean Rivain, that hasa Circle (the shamans are apostates hiding in woods, like Morrigan)

You mean Tevinter, the capital  of slavery that ALSO has Circles (because even mages realised they need to lock up other mages) and whos stabiltiy is questionable?