656 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Medhia Nox wrote...

When we say genocide - do we actually mean the conquering of a nation?

They're using it as a buzzword to try and demonize the opposition.

[Medhia Nox]

@Dave of Canada: That's what I suspected - but I figured I'd make sure it didn't actually say in a Codex somewhere that genocide was taking place.

[the_one_54321]

The Chantry doesn't matter.

Mages are inherently dangerous. Whether the Chantry says so or not is meaningless.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

When we say genocide - do we actually mean the conquering of a nation?

Because genocide is a VERY specific term.

I don't recall reading that elven men, women and children were rounded up and systematically killed.

Not every war of conquest is a "genocide".

What happened to the elves is actually more reminiscent to what happened to the northern Native American populations... and that is not considered a genocide by historians.

They conquered and depopulated it. And I, personally, would consider many of those conquests you mentioned to be genocidal.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

They conquered and depopulated it. And I, personally, would consider many of those conquests you mentioned to be genocidal.

I love arguing with subjective definitions!

[EmperorSahlertz]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dave of Canada: That's what I suspected - but I figured I'd make sure it didn't actually say in a Codex somewhere that genocide was taking place.

As DoC says, it is the main buzzword of the pro-mages. It doesn't really have any basis in fact.. Kinda like how some pro-Templars like to liken mages to nukes. Gross exageration, but it helps get their points across.

[the_one_54321]

The Chantry is irrelevant to this discussion. The justification for mage suppression lies within the nature of mages themselves. Dogs have teeth; we keep them on leashes. Mages have "teeth;" we keep them on "leashes."

[TheJediSaint]

The problem with the extreme solutions that I'm seeing on both sides is that they would both end up dooming Thedas, specifically to an invasion by the Qunari.

If the Templar extremists get there way and kill/neuter all the mages, then the Chantry lands have no way of countering Qunari cannons and Saarabas.

If the Mage fanatics get there way and try to recreate the Tevinter imperium, the frightened masses are going to turn to the Qun for protection.

And that's not even considering the fact that there will be a Sixth Blight as some point.

The best solution to the Mage-Templar war, in my opinion, is the one that leaves Thedas strong enough to resist outside invasion.

[the_one_54321]

Comparing a mage to a bomb isn't comparing a mage to THE BOMB. Mages blow things up with their mind. Unregulated mages do so randomly.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: The world isn't centered around what "you" would consider is, or is not, fact.

It is a "fact" that genocide is only used for the systematic annihilation of a population.

If they did this - and didn't simply move the elves (also wrong - but not genocide) - then it can be called genocide, otherwise it cannot.

As Dave Of Canada said - arguing over the term is useless - but using it incorrectly also suggests events that may or may not have occurred in the context of the story.

[the_one_54321]

JediSaint, that is precisely why we should use the qunari solution itself. Literal leashes instead of figurative ones.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

A mage is inherently different than anyone else, their potential is far greater and they have abilities far above those who live normally. They're also in a position which tempts demons, shining as beacons of power in the fade and appealing everything.

When they're asking for the same rights as anyone else, they're dismissing the fact that they're unlike everyone else by their very nature and can very well influence everyone else with their abilities. How worrisome would it be not knowing if your neighbor is using blood magic on yourself? You could willingly hand over everything you've ever owned without a sign of struggle. What would occur if someone in a more important position was tampered with? A captain of the guard, a noble or maybe even a monarch controlled by a blood mage could lead to very disastrous results.

"But most mages wouldn't do that!", I can hear you say from your computer. Really? They'd never consider abusing their powers? You're deluding yourself if you believe that someone with the capability of doing such things wouldn't do so when starving or cold, the lifestyle of Thedosian citizens is hardly great--something which most mages never deal with due to the Circles treating them like nobility.

"But the Templar abuse them!", you say. So what? Guards abuse commoners, nobility abuse anyone lesser than them, monarchy can do whatever the hell they want and there's little accountability. A nobleman can order purges of the commoners and there's nothing done in response, the commoner must accept it. It's surprising that despite all of this, the Templar are actually accountible for their actions to the Grand Cleric or the Knight-Commander.

Two points which I imagine seeing from this:
"I want to fix the entire world starting with mages!", you say. Umm... yeah... no, go do something else with your self-inserted morals and hoping to lead Thedas into enlightenment while dismissing everything inbetween.

"Kirkwall wasn't accountable, Meredith was allowing abuses!", you say. Mind I point out that most Templar transgressions weren't made known to Meredith or Elthina and were mostly resolved immediately after they were introduced when Hawke killed everyone involved. In addition, Elthina was probably the most incompetent Grand Cleric they could've had as she refuses to do her duty to the Chantry and allowed the escalation. This is by no means showing the Templar weren't accountable, just that the person in charge for the accountability never did their job.

"That's enough reason for me to overthrow the system, it doesn't work!", you say. Any system with too much incompetence doesn't work, doesn't mean the system is flawed as the core of the system has it's own reasons to exist. You don't proclaim to destroy the prison system because prisoners might be abused by their guards, no? You just make the guards face consequences and replace those which didn't do their job, no matter how long said abuses might've went on.

As usual, none of this whatsoever has anything to do with the templars and Chantry being the ones in charge. It may speak of caution being necessary, but that's no longer a factor for the time being, given the outright war that's now developed between the mages and templars. I'll take this into account when I begin building a new system, rest assured.

It is a "fact" that genocide is only used for the systematic annihilation of a population.

If
they did this - and didn't simply move the elves (also wrong - but not
genocide) - then it can be called genocide, otherwise it cannot.

No, it's defined as any sort of systematic depopulation, whether by killing or by deportation, if the object is to wipe out an ethnic/national/religious group in an area.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:35 .

[Palidane]

And when Orlais won, they did come for the Dalish. And given the intense anti-elven bigotry that continued to exist, it isn't like the Chantry was grateful for the Dalish's earlier contribution.

Maybe the bigotry was around because they left an entire city to die because they were too lazy to shoot arrows from the high ground? And let's also keep in mind the Dalish attacked first. They marched on Red Crossings. They started it, we finished it.

No, they sent in an army to deliberately slaughter people. Well, later on, during the Exalted March. But they should have just kept the missionaries out after that and only tried for economic relations.

Your confusing genocide with invading. Who doesn't send an army in to deliberately slaughter people? That is what armies are for, killing people. And they only sent it after they got attacked.

You don't think the Chantry has the right to preach about the Maker? That's the only reason the Chantry is around, to spread the chant to the four corners of the earth. Is that so villainous? Did you think Brother Burkel was some horrible zealot waiting to lop off the heads of the heathens?

We have very little knowledge of the Second Exalted March, and what we do have is very biased. There might have been horrible genocide and atrocities on both sides, or just one, or neither, we don't know.

Modifié par Palidane, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:38 .

[Dave of Canada]

TheJediSaint wrote...

The problem with the extreme solutions that I'm seeing on both sides is that they would both end up dooming Thedas, specifically to an invasion by the Qunari.

I'd consider myself a Templar extremist but I wouldn't want to kill or make all mages tranquil, I'd want to recreate the Circles and force harsher penalties for their attempted liberation. I agree with Lambert's decision to leave with the Chantry simply because the Divine is too weak and cannot understand her duty, she must be replaced with someone more agreeable to the Templar position and then the Order could finally return and the status-quo is restored.

Thedas will no doubt be weak regardless how the war ends, least the status quo will allow us to rebuild quicker.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:37 .

[TheJediSaint]

the_one_54321 wrote...

JediSaint, that is precisely why we should use the qunari solution itself. Literal leashes instead of figurative ones.

The problems with that is you're trying to out Qun the Qunari.  Without gunpowder, I may add.

[Xilizhra]

Maybe the bigotry was around because they left an entire city to die because they were too lazy to shoot arrows from the high ground? And let's also keep in mind the Dalish attacked first. They marched on Red Crossings. They started it, we finished it.

The bigotry was started by Tevinter and never abandoned (except, bizarrely, by Tevinter itself). And the Dalish were the first to win against an Andrastian base; it doesn't mean they were the first to attack.

You don't think the Chantry has the right to preach about the Maker? That's the only reason the Chantry is around, to spread the chant to the four corners of the earth. Is that so villainous? Did you think Brother Burkel was some horrible zealot waiting to lop off the heads of the heathens?

If the Dales doesn't want the Chantry there, the Chantry has no right, no. Also, the Chantry is around to justify Orlesian imperialism; in fact, that's the entire reason it was founded by Drakon. As for Burkel, we don't really know his character, but I'd be opposed to him if he upheld many current Chantry policies, yes.

[Palidane]

TheJediSaint wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

JediSaint, that is precisely why we should use the qunari solution itself. Literal leashes instead of figurative ones.

The problems with that is you're trying to out Qun the Qunari.  Without gunpowder, I may add.

That is the greatest thing I have ever heard on these forums. Do you mind if I sig it?

[Terrorize69]

Medhia Nox wrote...

When we say genocide - do we actually mean the conquering of a nation?

Because genocide is a VERY specific term.

I don't recall reading that elven men, women and children were rounded up and systematically killed.

Not every war of conquest is a "genocide".

What happened to the elves is actually more reminiscent to what happened to the northern Native American populations... and that is not considered a genocide by historians.

Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

I won't pretend I know the numbers of the Dalish left after they were evicted from the Dales, but given the numbers left in the current age, it is a logical assumtion that Genocide was commited.

Templars seem to use Genocide as their last resort or against a powerful threat in a lot of cases, biggest example being the use of the "Right of Annulment"

[TheJediSaint]

Dave of Canada wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

The problem with the extreme solutions that I'm seeing on both sides is that they would both end up dooming Thedas, specifically to an invasion by the Qunari.

I'd consider myself a Templar extremist but I wouldn't want to kill or make all mages tranquil, I'd want to recreate the Circles and force harsher penalties for their attempted liberation. I agree with Lambert's decision to leave with the Chantry simply because the Divine is too weak and cannot understand her duty, she must be replaced with someone more agreeable to the Templar position and then the Order could finally return and the status-quo is restored.

Thedas will no doubt be weak regardless how the war ends, least the status quo will allow us to rebuild quicker.

The probelm I see with Lambert is that his solutions actually creates the problem he's trying to solve.   Yes, there needs to be a way to police the Uldreds and the Quentins of the world.  But there also needs to be room for mages like Wynne who actually use their magic for the good of all.

I'm not sure what the ultimate solution looks like.  But whatever it is will probably have to give the mages just enough freedom so that rebellions like the one that started in Asunder dont happen again.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:46 .

[the_one_54321]

Thedas would probably be better off adopting the Qun anyway...

Thedas only serious chance against the qunari is numbers and overall strategy, anyway. The qunari have a significantly superior military structure.

[Medhia Nox]

My question is - isn't there an Empress in Orlais??

What the hell is SHE doing while the Divine is allowing the mages to create utter chaos?

====

And "deportation" alone has NOTHING to do with genocide... this is the worst sort of misinformation.

If the elves were only moved into "reservations" - that is NOT genocide.

It's horrible - it's wrong - and it shuld be changed... but it is not genocide.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:41 .

[TheJediSaint]

Palidane wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

The problems with that is you're trying to out Qun the Qunari.  Without gunpowder, I may add.

That is the greatest thing I have ever heard on these forums. Do you mind if I sig it?

Be my guest.

[LobselVith8]

Palidane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean they didn't leave themselves vulnerable to an invasion, via when Orlais used the Third Blight to conquer Nevarra?

At least half their soldiers are archers. They are on a hill. I don't think they would have taken horrific casualties. Besides, what if the darkspawn win? How do you know they're not going come for you? I'd say a massive hoard of darkspawn on the border of your nation is well worth military intervention. They could have killed two birds with one stone by helping Montsimmard, but they left them to die out of pure spite.

Given that the Orleisan Empire was actively trying to conquer it's neighbors, I don't see why the elves would help an empire that had been giving them problems. It's noted during Emperor Drakon's reign that he wanted to take control of the Free Marches, but he was dealing with issues with the Dales. I can imagine that the elves wouldn't want to aid an empire that could turn around and stab them in the back when they have the safety of their people to consider.

Palidane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the Chantry forced the elves who submitted to human rule to convert, it seems to fit. And we only need to look at the Chantry's support of the Orlesian occupation to see how intertwined they are with the imperialistic Orlesian Empire.

Yes, the Chantry has enormous power in Orlais. Yes, they probably had a lot more say in the aftermath of the war than they should have. But I'm still pretty sure they didn't send an army into randomly slaughter people. I'm thinking more they sent Templars to provide security for their priests. Which isn't a bad idea, since the only other Chantry missionary we know of got killed in a peaceful protest several months after he showed up. 

The elves of the Dales refused to convert to the Andrastian Chantry, and they kicked out the missionaries. The Chantry responded by sending armed and armored soldiers into sovereign territory. Even the elven protagonist from a non-Dalish background can condemn the Chantry for sacking a nation because its people refused to convert to their religion.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DarthLaxian wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
You may doubt, but it can't be proven regardless. All we have proof of is the Chantry's elven genocide.

Wrong. You don't have proof of anything.

The Chantry doesn't directly control the armies of other nations (which are the armes that compromise an Exhalted March).

they CONTROL the TEMPLARS (who ARE AN ARMY!) literally, because they controll the LYRIUM!

so, yes, they commited genocide!

No, the Exhalted Marches, like Crusdes, are carried out by armies from other nations who answer their call.
Those armeis are lead by their leaders and generals. There may or may not be templars squads involved.

The Chantry doesn't command the armies of sovereign nations.
What these armis do is not under the Chantrys control.

For refference, Crusading armies (or parts of the armies) would occasionaly do stuff on their own.
Like attack and pillage Dubrovnik, a christian town in a christian country. Which was frowned upon by the Pope but by the time the news reached him it was already too late.

So obviously you knowledge is as flawed as your knowledge of how the Crusades worked.

[Dave of Canada]

Terrorize69 wrote...

I won't pretend I know the numbers of the Dalish left after they were evicted from the Dales, but given the numbers left in the current age, it is a logical assumtion that Genocide was commited.

Most were intergrated into the cities and turned into city elves out of sympathy after the war, the Dalish left are roaming in clans and it's hard to tell their number. It wasn't a war to exterminate all elves, they just prevented the elves from keeping their culture if they went to the cities as it conflicted with the human culture.

Medhia Nox wrote...

My question is - isn't there an Empress in Orlais?? 

What the hell is SHE doing while the Divine is allowing the mages to create utter chaos? 

Hiding or dead, there's a civil war raging in Orlais led by an Orlesian Duke (Gaspard) and no-one knows where she is.

TheJediSaint wrote...

The probelm I see with Lambert is that his solutions actually create the problem they're trying to solve.   Yes, there needs to be a way to police the Uldreds and the Quentins of the world.  But there also needs to be room for mages like Wynne who actually use their magic for the good of all.

I'd view Lambert's solution as short-term, we're dealing with a Circle mindset which hasn't existed since the foundations of the Circles considering we're dealing with post-Kirkwall and the Divine's intervention.

Putting all the mages into Circles under lock-and-key would allow the Order and the Chantry to deal with their problems, eventually regiving the mages their rights and reallow the creation of the mage's right to gather and form a council when everything has calmed.

The Divine's sympathy to the mages would weaken the Circles as a whole, causing far more problems down than the line than she'd solve. I'd rather give mages this generation of mage harsher lives so others can benefit than give this generation of mage liberties but plague the Circles with financial difficulties and abuse of freedoms (perhaps leading a rebellion anyways).

Freedom is not an option.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:51 .