656 réponses à ce sujet

[TheJediSaint]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'd view Lambert's solution as short-term, we're dealing with a Circle mindset which hasn't existed since the foundations of the Circles considering we're dealing with post-Kirkwall and the Divine's intervention.

The problem with that kind of solution, in my mind, is that it foments rebellion instead of stopping it.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:54 .

[the_one_54321]

Indeed freedom is the most dangerous potential outcome. Compromise means no real freedom. Compromise means regulation as opposed to cutting out tongues and affixing steel collars.

Or, we can just exterminate the rebellion leaders and make nice collars and tongue choppers for all the others.

[Emzamination]

^ Dave for Knight-Divine :happy:

[LobselVith8]

Palidane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And when Orlais won, they did come for the Dalish. And given the intense anti-elven bigotry that continued to exist, it isn't like the Chantry was grateful for the Dalish's earlier contribution.

Maybe the bigotry was around because they left an entire city to die because they were too lazy to shoot arrows from the high ground? And let's also keep in mind the Dalish attacked first. They marched on Red Crossings. They started it, we finished it.

The Orlesian version claims the Dalish attacked first; the Dalish version claims the Chantry invaded their nation with templars. Considering how Orlais has invaded and conquered other nations since its inception, I'm inclined to think the Orlesian version isn't accurate.

Palidane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No, they sent in an army to deliberately slaughter people. Well, later on, during the Exalted March. But they should have just kept the missionaries out after that and only tried for economic relations.

Your confusing genocide with invading. Who doesn't send an army in to deliberately slaughter people? That is what armies are for, killing people. And they only sent it after they got attacked.

Not according to the Dalish, who claim the Chantry send in templars after the elves kicked out the human missionaries from their sovereign territory. And the elven protagonist can condemn the Chantry over this, even without being Dalish.

Palidane wrote...

You don't think the Chantry has the right to preach about the Maker? That's the only reason the Chantry is around, to spread the chant to the four corners of the earth. Is that so villainous? Did you think Brother Burkel was some horrible zealot waiting to lop off the heads of the heathens?

The Chantry uses the name of the Maker to subjugate mages into servitude, and apparently to invade the nations of "heathens."

Palidane wrote...

We have very little knowledge of the Second Exalted March, and what we do have is very biased. There might have been horrible genocide and atrocities on both sides, or just one, or neither, we don't know.

We know enough about Orlais to realize they continue to invade other nations, as Tegan cautions King Alistair that Orlais may attempt to reclaim their "lost province."

[Dave of Canada]

Post-Asunder, the escalation has already gone through the roof and mages have dealt their hand and they've chosen to rebel despite the votes being practically fifty-fifty (one vote decided they went to war). The Templar Order responded by leaving the Chantry as the Divine didn't help matters at all, basically allowing this to happen.

Now, Templar can respond in multiple ways:
Kill 'em all, let the Maker sort them out. This approach is horrible, it'll desperately weaken the entirety of Thedas and leave it open to the Qunari, the Tevinter and who knows what else. I'm of the opinion that this must be a last-resort.

Reform the Circle with the Divine. This is going to cause issues down the line, more liberties mean they'd want more than what they've received and things like curing the Tranquil would cause issues once the cure is discovered by other mages. This system basically delays problems until future generations deal with them.

Reform the Circle as it was. Technically, I'd consider this the best solution but I'd question the feasibility of it--the mindset which the mages have grown to have since Kirkwall would be ever present, the Templar would have to remain ever vigilant knowing each and every one of these mages will kill them given the chance and could be scheming.

Reform the Circle with harsher rules. Wouldn't do wonders for morale but Kirkwall kept a lot of mages in check, locking them up in their cells and preventing most of them from doing anything would be a wonderful way of keeping tabs and making sure there's no scheming or planning for rebellion. As time goes on, mages could slowly be reintroduced to liberties as they earn them. You stop them from rebelling by stopping them from doing anything together.

Work with the Circle loyalist mages and overthrow Fiona and her extremist supporters, recreating the Circles and abuse the fact that only half wanted the war. I'd say this would be the best long-term but it'll require a lot of risky scheming. I'd try for this approach first (as the worst scenario is the mages turn against each other) before going for Lambert's solution.

Most of these approaches would need the Divine to be replaced (unless they were working with her) as her sympathies only cause issues and we need the Chantry to supply lyrium to Templar and Mages.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 octobre 2012 - 07:14 .

[TheJediSaint]

@ Dave of Canada

In my view, the mindset of the Templars themselves is as much of a problem as the mindset of the mages. Evangeline was, I think, is an example of a good Templar, who viewed herself more as a police officer than a jailer. Her role was to protect mages, both from their own power and from non-mages who would seek to harm them.

Lambert, on the other hand, sees the mages in the same light that the Grey Wardens see the Darkspawn, as the enemy. With that kind of mindset, it is only a matter of time before mages get provoked into war, or the Temparls go to the logical extreme and try to exterminate the mages whoesale.

I actually think the Divine was right in trying to gently reform BOTH the circle mages and the Templars. The problem was that her efforts were too little too late. Hence why this issue will have to be solved by a Player Character.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 25 octobre 2012 - 07:24 .

[Palidane]

@Xilizhra, LobselVith8

All our information about this comes from one Codex entry. Information on this war is so biased they even give you two different versions.

If your Dalish, you throw out Chantry missionaries, then a bunch of templars come and raze your city and cast you out. If you only read this, you would think the Chantry were a bunch of psycho zealots chomping at the bit to slaughter everyone.

If your not Dalish, then the Dalish became isolationist, turning away merchants and all diplomats. Rumors surface of humans sacrificed to dark gods, culminating in the Dalish attacking a small defenseless town. If you only read this, you'd think the Dalish were insane savages trying to kill all humans, like a mix of qunari and darkspawn.

Where is the truth? Both sides are obviously biased, how do we sort it out?

[Xilizhra]

Where is the truth? Both sides are obviously biased, how do we sort it out?

As of now, we don't, because it's not a top issue. Later on? Well, that depends on what the elves want. I would certainly support any return to elven autonomy and power.

[General User]

I think an important principle to keep in mind is that the two rebellions need to be put down before any serious talk of reform or reorganization should take place.

The message needs to be clear: the Chantry is willing to support more humane treatment for mages, but violence and rebellion as a means of coercing political change cannot be tolerated.

[Medhia Nox]

@General User: Well said.

[TheJediSaint]

General User wrote...

I think an important principle to keep in mind is that the two rebellions need to be put down before any serious talk of reform or reorganization should take place.

The message needs to be clear: the Chantry is willing to support more humane treatment for mages, but violence and rebellion as a means of coercing political change cannot be tolerated.

That's pretty much my position.  Though in my view, it's becasue Thedas has bigger problems facing it than the rights of Mages.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

I think an important principle to keep in mind is that the two rebellions need to be put down before any serious talk of reform or reorganization should take place.

The message needs to be clear: the Chantry is willing to support more humane treatment for mages, but violence and rebellion as a means of coercing political change cannot be tolerated.

Remember that the Chantry has somewhere between "jack" and "squat" to enforce this, aside from maybe the goodwill of the Inquisitor. Also, the mages under Fiona's leadership didn't start any violence (Adrian did, but she was isolated and the templars as an organization precipitated organized warfare).

[Palidane]

Though we don't know that every templar or seeker has gone rogue. Cassandra, Leliana, and at least one company are sticking around. Maybe Greagoir and some other reasonable templars stayed loyal.

We also can't forget the Nuclear Option. If everything just totally goes to hell, Divine Justinia could declare the 10th Exalted March.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Palidane wrote...

@Xilizhra, LobselVith8

All our information about this comes from one Codex entry. Information on this war is so biased they even give you two different versions.

If your Dalish, you throw out Chantry missionaries, then a bunch of templars come and raze your city and cast you out. If you only read this, you would think the Chantry were a bunch of psycho zealots chomping at the bit to slaughter everyone.

If your not Dalish, then the Dalish became isolationist, turning away merchants and all diplomats. Rumors surface of humans sacrificed to dark gods, culminating in the Dalish attacking a small defenseless town. If you only read this, you'd think the Dalish were insane savages trying to kill all humans, like a mix of qunari and darkspawn.

Where is the truth? Both sides are obviously biased, how do we sort it out?

There are more human sources about the war than Dalish. Not only are they more detailed, they also present their findings with at least a modicum of objectivity. The Dalish source is blatantly biased, severely undetailed, and last but not least simply a story from the clan's local story teller. The Dalish has no tradition of the written word, and as such are worthless as reliable historians.

[Xilizhra]

Palidane wrote...

Though we don't know that every templar or seeker has gone rogue. Cassandra, Leliana, and at least one company are sticking around. Maybe Greagoir and some other reasonable templars stayed loyal.

We also can't forget the Nuclear Option. If everything just totally goes to hell, Divine Justinia could declare the 10th Exalted March.

And if she does that, then I'd consider it justified to retaliate with the biggest and nastiest expression of blood magic we could muster, and send a horde of demons after said army. We will not go gently into that good night.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Though we don't know that every templar or seeker has gone rogue. Cassandra, Leliana, and at least one company are sticking around. Maybe Greagoir and some other reasonable templars stayed loyal.

We also can't forget the Nuclear Option. If everything just totally goes to hell, Divine Justinia could declare the 10th Exalted March.

And if she does that, then I'd consider it justified to retaliate with the biggest and nastiest expression of blood magic we could muster, and send a horde of demons after said army. We will not go gently into that good night.

That would unite the entire world of Thedas behind the Templars so fast, that the Mages wouldn't even be able to say annulment, before they hit the ground. You aren't much of a strategist are you?

[TheJediSaint]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Though we don't know that every templar or seeker has gone rogue. Cassandra, Leliana, and at least one company are sticking around. Maybe Greagoir and some other reasonable templars stayed loyal.

We also can't forget the Nuclear Option. If everything just totally goes to hell, Divine Justinia could declare the 10th Exalted March.

And if she does that, then I'd consider it justified to retaliate with the biggest and nastiest expression of blood magic we could muster, and send a horde of demons after said army. We will not go gently into that good night.

That would unite the entire world of Thedas behind the Templars so fast, that the Mages wouldn't even be able to say annulment, before they hit the ground. You aren't much of a strategist are you?

There's also the logistical problem of learning the big nasty blood-magicy spell.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Palidane wrote...

@Xilizhra, LobselVith8

All our information about this comes from one Codex entry. Information on this war is so biased they even give you two different versions.

If your Dalish, you throw out Chantry missionaries, then a bunch of templars come and raze your city and cast you out. If you only read this, you would think the Chantry were a bunch of psycho zealots chomping at the bit to slaughter everyone.

If your not Dalish, then the Dalish became isolationist, turning away merchants and all diplomats. Rumors surface of humans sacrificed to dark gods, culminating in the Dalish attacking a small defenseless town. If you only read this, you'd think the Dalish were insane savages trying to kill all humans, like a mix of qunari and darkspawn.

Where is the truth? Both sides are obviously biased, how do we sort it out?

There are more human sources about the war than Dalish. Not only are they more detailed, they also present their findings with at least a modicum of objectivity. The Dalish source is blatantly biased, severely undetailed, and last but not least simply a story from the clan's local story teller. The Dalish has no tradition of the written word, and as such are worthless as reliable historians.

When you say "no tradition of the written word," you mean like the books the Dalish have on different issues of their culture, history, and tradition? Such as the lore Merrill used to read up on the Eluvian? Or the Dalish book Morrigan perused?

[Palidane]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Though we don't know that every templar or seeker has gone rogue. Cassandra, Leliana, and at least one company are sticking around. Maybe Greagoir and some other reasonable templars stayed loyal.

We also can't forget the Nuclear Option. If everything just totally goes to hell, Divine Justinia could declare the 10th Exalted March.

And if she does that, then I'd consider it justified to retaliate with the biggest and nastiest expression of blood magic we could muster, and send a horde of demons after said army. We will not go gently into that good night.

That would unite the entire world of Thedas behind the Templars so fast, that the Mages wouldn't even be able to say annulment, before they hit the ground. You aren't much of a strategist are you?

I agree. There will be more mages, and I don't think you want your legacy to be "When it comes down to the wire, mages will join together in defiance and say "POWEEERRRRRR!!!! MUAHAHAHAAHAHA!" and call up unimaginable horrors from the fade while mind controlling people and generally acting like the monsters they said they weren't 3 months ago"

Modifié par Palidane, 25 octobre 2012 - 07:57 .

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Though we don't know that every templar or seeker has gone rogue. Cassandra, Leliana, and at least one company are sticking around. Maybe Greagoir and some other reasonable templars stayed loyal.

We also can't forget the Nuclear Option. If everything just totally goes to hell, Divine Justinia could declare the 10th Exalted March.

And if she does that, then I'd consider it justified to retaliate with the biggest and nastiest expression of blood magic we could muster, and send a horde of demons after said army. We will not go gently into that good night.

That would unite the entire world of Thedas behind the Templars so fast, that the Mages wouldn't even be able to say annulment, before they hit the ground. You aren't much of a strategist are you?

In the scenario Palidane mentioned, the entire world of Thedas would already be united behind the templars; nothing would change about that. But I don't consider it likely either way.

[Dave of Canada]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That would unite the entire world of Thedas behind the Templars so fast, that the Mages wouldn't even be able to say annulment, before they hit the ground. You aren't much of a strategist are you?

It's not obvious? Everything she types is admittedly short-sighted.

[Terrorize69]

Palidane wrote...

Though we don't know that every templar or seeker has gone rogue. Cassandra, Leliana, and at least one company are sticking around. Maybe Greagoir and some other reasonable templars stayed loyal.

We also can't forget the Nuclear Option. If everything just totally goes to hell, Divine Justinia could declare the 10th Exalted March.

It's stated that most Templars have gone rogue. Some remain loyal to the Chantry, those that actually don't believe mages should be wiped out, not that they should betray their faith.

Also a faction of Seekers remain loyal, which includes Cass and Leliana.

[Ausstig]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Though we don't know that every templar or seeker has gone rogue. Cassandra, Leliana, and at least one company are sticking around. Maybe Greagoir and some other reasonable templars stayed loyal.

We also can't forget the Nuclear Option. If everything just totally goes to hell, Divine Justinia could declare the 10th Exalted March.

It's stated that most Templars have gone rogue. Some remain loyal to the Chantry, those that actually don't believe mages should be wiped out, not that they should betray their faith.

Also a faction of Seekers remain loyal, which includes Cass and Leliana.

Trators to their own cause.

The Templars should go for a political solution, as in appealing to the moderate mages and try to split the inseguncry and bring many back into the fold. 

[Terrorize69]

Ausstig wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Though we don't know that every templar or seeker has gone rogue. Cassandra, Leliana, and at least one company are sticking around. Maybe Greagoir and some other reasonable templars stayed loyal.

We also can't forget the Nuclear Option. If everything just totally goes to hell, Divine Justinia could declare the 10th Exalted March.

It's stated that most Templars have gone rogue. Some remain loyal to the Chantry, those that actually don't believe mages should be wiped out, not that they should betray their faith.

Also a faction of Seekers remain loyal, which includes Cass and Leliana.

Trators to their own cause.

The Templars should go for a political solution, as in appealing to the moderate mages and try to split the inseguncry and bring many back into the fold. 

Which ones are you saying are the Traitors? The ones going bloodlust crazy for mages in an all out war? Or those that decided to opt out and stay true to the Chantry?

[Terrorize69]

Wow lol according to the poll, mage supporters are in the majority.. if it was like that in Thedas.. lol

(Yes I know polls mean nothing but still interesting to see lol)