656 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

I'd be more outraged at the aftermath of what a mage does.

And I would be absolutely livid as a citizen of any nation on Thedas if I knew that mages were free to learn combat magic.

If "I" were the Chantry I would have outlawed the Entropy and Primal schools - and the "undead" line of Spirit spells.

I would also allow Creation mages - and Spirit mages that learn Anti-Magic spells to have more freedom as Chantry staff that worked with the templars (with Creation mages opening up Chantry hospitals).

The mage himself isn't what's the worst thing... it's the torn Veil - the devastated landscape - and the capacity to destabilize nations thta would have me hunting mages far more than "They may be mean." Even though these are a direct result of immoral mages.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Not well enough.  I think that difference is sufficient to render the analogy inapplicable.

By that standrard any real-world analogy will be inapplicable, up to and including examples from civil and human rights movements, because mages do not exist.

But people with inate advantages do exist.  That should be our standard.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
There are mages, and there are non-mages. Each has different capabilities. There is no reason for non-mages to resent the magical powers of mages any more than there is reason for rabbits to resent the abilities of eagles to fly and prey upon rabbits.

Are you saying that rabbits shouldn't fear eagles? 

I'm saying rabbits shouldn't hate eagles just for being eagles.  Rabbits should accept their lot in life.

Shouldn't mages then have accepted their "lot in life" when they were in the Circles?

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Not well enough.  I think that difference is sufficient to render the analogy inapplicable.

By that standrard any real-world analogy will be inapplicable, up to and including examples from civil and human rights movements, because mages do not exist.

But people with inate advantages do exist.  That should be our standard.

Not anywhere near the level of mages, so I disagree.

[TheJediSaint]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Not well enough.  I think that difference is sufficient to render the analogy inapplicable.

By that standrard any real-world analogy will be inapplicable, up to and including examples from civil and human rights movements, because mages do not exist.

But people with inate advantages do exist.  That should be our standard.

Last I checked, no one in the real world has the innate ablity to blow stuff up using their minds.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 23 octobre 2012 - 07:33 .

[Foolsfolly]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Not well enough.  I think that difference is sufficient to render the analogy inapplicable.

By that standrard any real-world analogy will be inapplicable, up to and including examples from civil and human rights movements, because mages do not exist.

But people with inate advantages do exist.  That should be our standard.

Everyone take according to their ability?

Yeah those with nothing tend to have violent disagreements in those circumstances.

[Terrorize69]

Is it not wrong to punish a generation of mages based on the actions of those 900years ago?

Even more so when the descendants of those that preformed the acts are actually free and in control of their country while the ones who weren't related to that group are imprisoned for a past thats not their own?

Thats like... Country A invaded Country B 500years ago, so now Country A enslaves Country C for Country Bs actions.

[Palipride47]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'd be more outraged at the aftermath of what a mage does.

And I would be absolutely livid as a citizen of any nation on Thedas if I knew that mages were free to learn combat magic.....
The mage himself isn't what's the worst thing... it's the torn Veil - the devastated landscape - and the capacity to destabilize nations thta would have me hunting mages far more than "They may be mean." Even though these are a direct result of immoral mages

Until the mages use their combat magic to stop the Blight? In DAA (ignoring some of those AOE Melee spells) I can only take down a few darkspawn at a time with a sword. Anders can fireblast 20 with a wave of his sparklefingers.

You don't need magic to destabilize anything. And the Veil tears and demons pour out for other reasons besides mages. A lot of dead people in one spot (i.e. Brecilian Forest) causes Veil tears. 

Modifié par Palipride47, 23 octobre 2012 - 07:37 .

[The Elder King]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


Shouldn't mages then have accepted their "lot in life" when they were in the Circles?

Regardless of the fact that it was Anders's (for blowing up the Chantry) and Meredith (to proclame an Annulment to a Circle never involved with Anders) fault for the mages rebellion, and while I don't agree with what Anders did, you know, if you Tranquilize people with no reason (done both by Alrik in Act 2 and Meredith in Act 3, though ) and those mages could be treated as the templars wish (meaning that if there are good templars, the mages will be treated good, and if the templars are bad, the mages will be treated bad), you'll increase the chances of a rebellion.

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 07:37 .

[Dhiro]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'd be more outraged at the aftermath of what a mage does.

And I would be absolutely livid as a citizen of any nation on Thedas if I knew that mages were free to learn combat magic.

If "I" were the Chantry I would have outlawed the Entropy and Primal schools - and the "undead" line of Spirit spells.

I would also allow Creation mages - and Spirit mages that learn Anti-Magic spells to have more freedom as Chantry staff that worked with the templars (with Creation mages opening up Chantry hospitals).

The mage himself isn't what's the worst thing... it's the torn Veil - the devastated landscape - and the capacity to destabilize nations thta would have me hunting mages far more than "They may be mean." Even though these are a direct result of immoral mages.

I was surprised that the Chantry didn't outlaw more than just Blood Magic. Entropy alone sound very terrifying. But maybe they draw the line on what Templars can or can't control.

[The Elder King]

nevermind

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 07:54 .

[Vandicus]

Dhiro wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'd be more outraged at the aftermath of what a mage does.

And I would be absolutely livid as a citizen of any nation on Thedas if I knew that mages were free to learn combat magic.

If "I" were the Chantry I would have outlawed the Entropy and Primal schools - and the "undead" line of Spirit spells.

I would also allow Creation mages - and Spirit mages that learn Anti-Magic spells to have more freedom as Chantry staff that worked with the templars (with Creation mages opening up Chantry hospitals).

The mage himself isn't what's the worst thing... it's the torn Veil - the devastated landscape - and the capacity to destabilize nations thta would have me hunting mages far more than "They may be mean." Even though these are a direct result of immoral mages.

I was surprised that the Chantry didn't outlaw more than just Blood Magic. Entropy alone sound very terrifying. But maybe they draw the line on what Templars can or can't control.

That and blood magic has legit mind control. Mind control would be a terrifying power against even modern weaponry. The rest of a mage's powers are comparable to say, having modern weapons in Medieval Europe. But as Jack Churchill shows us, modern weapons can be overcome through pure badassery(which brings us back to the, no mundane can stop blood magic, whereas the mundanes can stop the other forms).

[Iosev]

I'm guessing that the ban on blood magic has to deal, in part, with how it is much more difficult to control than mana-based magic (which is controlled through the lyrium trade). If I'm not mistaken, templar abilities disrupt mana, which a blood mage doesn't have to rely on. Blood magic also allows a mage to more easily enter the fade than with lyrium (albeit at the expense of a life), which I imagine the Chantry wants to control, given the theorized creation of the darkspawn.

I think mind control is the reason that the Chantry likes to state to the general populace (as a relatable, fear tactic), but I think that their more important reason is simply to increase their control on magic and magical activities.

Modifié par arcelonious, 23 octobre 2012 - 07:48 .

[MisterJB]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Is it not wrong to punish a generation of mages based on the actions of those 900years ago?

Even more so when the descendants of those that preformed the acts are actually free and in control of their country while the ones who weren't related to that group are imprisoned for a past thats not their own?

Thats like... Country A invaded Country B 500years ago, so now Country A enslaves Country C for Country Bs actions.

This is not about punishing mages for what happened 900 years ago. It's about preventing it from happening again.

[Vandicus]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Is it not wrong to punish a generation of mages based on the actions of those 900years ago?

Even more so when the descendants of those that preformed the acts are actually free and in control of their country while the ones who weren't related to that group are imprisoned for a past thats not their own?

Thats like... Country A invaded Country B 500years ago, so now Country A enslaves Country C for Country Bs actions.

See, the point isn't to punish them, its to avoid a recreation of the Tevinter Imperium. Give a group of people special powers arbitrarily determined by birth, mix in human nature, shake it up a bit, and you end up with tyranny.

[Medhia Nox]

@Palipride47: You do realize they're not prepping mages for Blights yes?

And there's several generations between Blights - and there's no reason to believe that the Qunari are going to invade (until "after" DA 3 at least)

As for destabilization and the Veil - true, but neither of those things can be done by a single normal person.

====

The Chantry was being downright liberal.  

Combat magic shouldn't have been available in DA: O until you're out of the Origin and into Ostagar (it would have taken a touch of redoing the story - but not much) .

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 23 octobre 2012 - 07:46 .

[Dhiro]

hhh89 wrote...

Dhiro wrote...



I was surprised that the Chantry didn't outlaw more than just Blood Magic. Entropy alone sound very terrifying. But maybe they draw the line on what Templars can or can't control.

Because throwing a fireball to a bunch of people is better than sucking their energy?

I'm not sure if I understand your post? A Templar can stop a mage from casting Fireball and Horror alike.

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Not well enough.  I think that difference is sufficient to render the analogy inapplicable.

By that standrard any real-world analogy will be inapplicable, up to and including examples from civil and human rights movements, because mages do not exist.

But people with inate advantages do exist.  That should be our standard.

That's nonsense. The difference between a smart person and an average person is relatively minor, compared to the difference between a regular person and someone who can alter the fabric of reality with their minds.

The simple truth is this: THERE IS NO PROPER ANALOGY. There is no standard to use. There is no analog to real world events or situations. The mage/templar/mundane/chantry situation is, at best, an extreme exaggeration based very, very vaguely on real-world problems (and at worst, a situation that has no comparison at all to real problems).

If you must make a comparison, consider mutants in X-Men. But they're not real either, so it just goes right back around.

[Terrorize69]

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Is it not wrong to punish a generation of mages based on the actions of those 900years ago?

Even
more so when the descendants of those that preformed the acts are
actually free and in control of their country while the ones who weren't
related to that group are imprisoned for a past thats not their own?

Thats like... Country A invaded Country B 500years ago, so now Country A enslaves Country C for Country Bs actions.

This is not about punishing mages for what happened 900 years ago. It's about preventing it from happening again.

Vandicus wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Is it not wrong to punish a generation of mages based on the actions of those 900years ago?

Even more so when the descendants of those that preformed the acts are actually free and in control of their country while the ones who weren't related to that group are imprisoned for a past thats not their own?

Thats like... Country A invaded Country B 500years ago, so now Country A enslaves Country C for Country Bs actions.

See, the point isn't to punish them, its to avoid a recreation of the Tevinter Imperium. Give a group of people special powers arbitrarily determined by birth, mix in human nature, shake it up a bit, and you end up with tyranny.

Inprisoned all their lifes IS punishing them, even more so when those THAT are to blame are entirely free.

[Maria Caliban]

Combat magic exists because mages are used in war. No nation is doing to neuter its mages ability to kill people when other neighboring nations have mages with combat magic.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

The solution is simple..... everyone becomes a mage. Sandal has predicted the future.

[upsettingshorts]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

The solution is simple..... everyone becomes a mage.

That's certainly one way around the issue.

[silentassassin264]

The chantry's whole position is stupid. They apparently can give lyrium out to give people annulment and cancel out magic. If they gave people a lyrium vaccine like they give Templars, mages would be the odd ones out as near the entire populace would be mostly immune to them. Instead with just get demonizing mages instead of using what you already have to definitely ensure they could never rule over you.

[Palipride47]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Palipride47: You do realize they're not prepping mages for Blights yes?

And there's several generations between Blights - and there's no reason to believe that the Qunari are going to invade (until "after" DA 3 at least)

As for destabilization and the Veil - true, but neither of those things can be done by a single normal person.

====

The Chantry was being downright liberal.  

Combat magic shouldn't have been available in DA: O until you're out of the Origin and into Ostagar (it would have taken a touch of redoing the story - but not much) .

It is also silly to denounce that you should "never be able to learn something" until it is useful to you (I still don't like that the Chantry uses blood magic in phylacteries) and "comabt magic" (lightning conjuring and stuff) JUST MIGHT have practical applications outside of killing things. 

I see NO reason to keep things "the way they are" or clamp down when BOTH ways have failed. 

[Vandicus]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

The solution is simple..... everyone becomes a mage.

That's certainly one way around the issue.

Gotta admit, abomination apocalypse might be interesting.