656 réponses à ce sujet

[Maclimes]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I see no viable long-term solution to the mage/mundane issue that doesn't involve the utter destruction of one group by the other.

I agree. Destruction doesn't necessarily mean death, of course. (There's the "Turn everyone tranquil/turn everyone into a mage" variation, as well). Not arguing, since you didn't actually directly imply death. Just expounding on the concept.

Tranquillity can be reversed, as shown in Asunders.

A technicality. It's a fictional universe. Perhaps some crazy magic bomb that completely severs the Fade from reality altogether. Maybe a new "super tranquility". When looking in from the outside, there's no absolutes in a fictional universe.

[Beerfish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Gameplay wise, non-Grey Wardens can bathe in Darkspawn blood for an entire year and never get the Blight.

It's pretty good for the skin as well.  Better than cream, honey, aloe and rose petals.  It also is great at removing stains.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

How about humans and livestock?  Are those sufficiently different from each other?

You've gone too far the other way, now.

Livestock cannot comprehend, as individuals or a society, the comparison between themselves and humans. They cannot be oppressed, as they have no drive or motivation other than simple existence.

The level of sentience and cultural self-awareness is the same between mundanes and mages. Not so with humans and livestock.

This is what I meant when I said this line of reasoning would lead to very interesting questions about what makes a person a person.  Why do livestock fail to be analogus to mundanes?

Animal rights activists would dispute your claim that livestock cannot be oppressed.  And livestock can certainly be abused, and there is some level of mistreatment that we deem unacceptable.  That line appears to be somewhere around veal.

If we can answer why some treatment of livestock (as creatures that exist solely for our benefit) is acceptable, and some treatment is not, we can begin to build a framework of moral rules to apply more broadly.

If we build a complete set of rules first, then the mage/mundane question gets solved automatically.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 23 octobre 2012 - 08:10 .

[Terrorize69]

Palipride47 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

I got an idea, maybe switch roles for 900 years lol. Let mages imprison anyone without magic... then in 900 years time when both have an equal view of the other side, they can reach a compromise xD

Andraste was fighting against who and for what? For Tevinter cookies?

I sensed humor in his (or her) post. I guess no one else did. 

Maybe that's what the whole Qunari/Tevinter war is about. A Qunari found out (before Sten) about those delicous cookies.

Least some one gets it lol

[Sylvius the Mad]

Palipride47 wrote...

Considering that the only reason we aren't basically equal to chimps and bonobos is at best, a combo of an evolutionary fluke and maybe some cultural differences, I wouldn't go too far with that.

Does it matter why we're unequal?

[silentassassin264]

Palipride47 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...


Lyrium is addictive, leads to insanity and other mental problems, physical ailments, and the unrefined stuff straight up kills mages.

Not in a one-time dose.  The annulment passive ability does not require Hawke to keep on guzzling down lyrium. 

Gameplay wise, you don't.

Lore wise, you should, and Gaider has mentioned some issues regarding lyrium use in-game, because the templar powers do go away w/o lyrium, and you do have side effects. You can  handwave it with the lyrium smuggling underground in Kirkwall (I mean, you can work for a smuggler, I'm sure she can hook you up)

Even disregarding Annulment, Alistair says all of the templars anti-magic abilities are learned without any lyrium (besides annulment since it is literally injecting lyrium in your blood).  If the Chantry truly wanted magic to never rule over man, they could still make anti-magic abilities (sans annulment) basic education at the Chantry.  Mages would still be pretty ineffective if nearly everyone had heightened resistance to magic and the ability to drain their mana with a punch.  The chantry isn't interested in preventing magic from ruling over men.  It is interested in demonizing mages for crimes done long ago.

[mesmerizedish]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Even disregarding Annulment, Alistair says all of the templars anti-magic abilities are learned without any lyrium

Source this. I remember Alistair saying that templars' abilities DO require lyrium.

[The Hierophant]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...


Lyrium is addictive, leads to insanity and other mental problems, physical ailments, and the unrefined stuff straight up kills mages.

Not in a one-time dose.  The annulment passive ability does not require Hawke to keep on guzzling down lyrium. 

Gameplay wise, you don't.

Lore wise, you should, and Gaider has mentioned some issues regarding lyrium use in-game, because the templar powers do go away w/o lyrium, and you do have side effects. You can  handwave it with the lyrium smuggling underground in Kirkwall (I mean, you can work for a smuggler, I'm sure she can hook you up)

Even disregarding Annulment, Alistair says all of the templars anti-magic abilities are learned without any lyrium (besides annulment since it is literally injecting lyrium in your blood).  If the Chantry truly wanted magic to never rule over man, they could still make anti-magic abilities (sans annulment) basic education at the Chantry.  Mages would still be pretty ineffective if nearly everyone had heightened resistance to magic and the ability to drain their mana with a punch.  The chantry isn't interested in preventing magic from ruling over men.  It is interested in demonizing mages for crimes done long ago.

It's more like it's interested in monopolizing power.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 23 octobre 2012 - 08:16 .

[Dhiro]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Even disregarding Annulment, Alistair says all of the templars anti-magic abilities are learned without any lyrium

Source this. I remember Alistair saying that templars' abilities DO require lyrium.

Here, around 1:00

[The Elder King]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Even disregarding Annulment, Alistair says all of the templars anti-magic abilities are learned without any lyrium

Source this. I remember Alistair saying that templars' abilities DO require lyrium.

I can't find the dialogue, but I remember that he said that lyrium isn't needed for templars abilities, but it's said to made them more effective. I'll try to find it on the internet, but I doubt I will.
Regardless, if lyrium is needed, I'd like if to start to learn templar abilities the PC has to start taking lyrium.

edit: found it

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 08:22 .

[silentassassin264]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Even disregarding Annulment, Alistair says all of the templars anti-magic abilities are learned without any lyrium

Source this. I remember Alistair saying that templars' abilities DO require lyrium.

Talk to Alistair at Ostagar about Templars.  

[InfinitePaths]

IMO it's best to make a most neutral and calm decisions,I don't support the right of annulment,I don't support templars being pushy and violent,but I also don't support apostates and blood mages,altrough i can make exceptions to some apostates,I support friendly circles.Nice friendly,fun cricle FTW

Modifié par HeriocGreyWarden, 23 octobre 2012 - 08:22 .

[Wulfram]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Source this. I remember Alistair saying that templars' abilities DO require lyrium.

Alistair says in Origins

You don't need lyrium in order to learn the templar talents. Lyrium just makes templars talents more effective. Or so I was told. Maybe it doesn't even do that.

(From the toolset)

Though in a more recent interview type thing, Mr Gaider said

TUK: The Templar abilities, are they--despite the Chantry's protestations--a form of magic?

DG:
I would say that they are magic, they derive from lyrium, which is
magic.[...] Even if Templar magic was recognized as
spellcasting, it's not innate to the Templars, if they just stopped
taking lyrium eventually they would lose the ability. Although as
Alistair proves, they can use the ability for a long time afterwards. I
think part of that was just the requirements of gameplay, for us to have
a specialization as well, so some of that story doesn't quite match up
with the gameplay, and I think eventually we'd like to work the lyrium
requirement back into the gameplay as well.

Modifié par Wulfram, 23 octobre 2012 - 08:26 .

[The Elder King]

Oh, he said something about working on lyrium requirement. I hope they'll implement it in DA3.

[Terrorize69]

Talking about the Tevinter Imperium..

All their Mages and Magisters, now have as much power and strength as they did 900 years ago. The "culprits" to those past events run amok, while those who's only connection to the Imperium is they share a common gift are oppressed.

Maybe Templars should of been a bigger focus in Tevinter if their goal was to prevent the rise of the Imperium, which they failed to do so. Seems to me Templars punish/oppress mages elsewhere just because they have no power to do so to the real suspects.

[Masha Potato]

Pretty sure this particular branch of Alistair's dialogue was simply there to explain gameplay mechanics. Like, why PC doesn't have to eat lyrium to be a templar.

Although, since you can be a templar in DA2 as well and still don't have to eat lyrium while a lot of templar plots stress how important the stuff is to the templars i'm inclined to think it's just another example of heavy story/gameplay segregation

[Dhiro]

Masha Potato wrote...

Pretty sure this particular branch of Alistair's dialogue was simply there to explain gameplay mechanics. Like, why PC doesn't have to eat lyrium to be a templar.

Although, since you can be a templar in DA2 as well and still don't have to eat lyrium while a lot of templar plots stress how important the stuff is to the templars i'm inclined to think it's just another example of heavy story/gameplay segregation

Probably. In fact, here's the description of the Templar specialization in DA II:

"The strong arm of the Chantry, templars serve as guardians of the
Circles of Magi, hunters of apostates and maleficarum, and rarely, as a
standing army at the command of the Divine. Through ingestion of
carefully prepared lyrium, templars gain resistance to magic, including
the ability to interrupt spells. Though the Chantry controls the lyrium
trade, those with the right connections can acquire enough to emulate
the abilities of these vigilant warriors."

[General User]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Talking about the Tevinter Imperium..

All their Mages and Magisters, now have as much power and strength as they did 900 years ago. The "culprits" to those past events run amok, while those who's only connection to the Imperium is they share a common gift are oppressed.

Maybe Templars should of been a bigger focus in Tevinter if their goal was to prevent the rise of the Imperium, which they failed to do so. Seems to me Templars punish/oppress mages elsewhere just because they have no power to do so to the real suspects.

As others have said, the purpose of the Templar Order is not to punish mages for the crimes of the Tevinter Imperium, but rather to prevent anything like the old Imperium from returning.

Modifié par General User, 23 octobre 2012 - 08:28 .

[silentassassin264]

General User wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Talking about the Tevinter Imperium..

All their Mages and Magisters, now have as much power and strength as they did 900 years ago. The "culprits" to those past events run amok, while those who's only connection to the Imperium is they share a common gift are oppressed.

Maybe Templars should of been a bigger focus in Tevinter if their goal was to prevent the rise of the Imperium, which they failed to do so. Seems to me Templars punish/oppress mages elsewhere just because they have no power to do so to the real suspects.

As others have said, the purpose of the Templar Order is not to punish mages for the crimes of the Tevinter Imperium, but rather to prevent anything like the old Imperium from returning.

The "old" Imperium is still there.  Tevinter never fell and they certainly are still ruled by magisters.

[MisterJB]

silentassassin264 wrote...
The "old" Imperium is still there.  Tevinter never fell and they certainly are still ruled by magisters.

And the Templars have led three Exalted Marches to free the North. They failed and now, the best they can do is ensure the South remains a free land of free mundanes.

[General User]

silentassassin264 wrote...

General User wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Talking about the Tevinter Imperium..

All their Mages and Magisters, now have as much power and strength as they did 900 years ago. The "culprits" to those past events run amok, while those who's only connection to the Imperium is they share a common gift are oppressed.

Maybe Templars should of been a bigger focus in Tevinter if their goal was to prevent the rise of the Imperium, which they failed to do so. Seems to me Templars punish/oppress mages elsewhere just because they have no power to do so to the real suspects.

As others have said, the purpose of the Templar Order is not to punish mages for the crimes of the Tevinter Imperium, but rather to prevent anything like the old Imperium from returning.

The "old" Imperium is still there.  Tevinter never fell and they certainly are still ruled by magisters.

In the parts of Thedas where the Templars operate the Imperium is indeed gone.  A number of empires, kingdoms, and tribes now rule those lands.  One of the few things all those different peoples have in common is they don't want anything like the Tevinter Imperium to rule over them ever again: hence the Templars.

[Terrorize69]

silentassassin264 wrote...

General User wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Talking about the Tevinter Imperium..

All their Mages and Magisters, now have as much power and strength as they did 900 years ago. The "culprits" to those past events run amok, while those who's only connection to the Imperium is they share a common gift are oppressed.

Maybe Templars should of been a bigger focus in Tevinter if their goal was to prevent the rise of the Imperium, which they failed to do so. Seems to me Templars punish/oppress mages elsewhere just because they have no power to do so to the real suspects.

As others have said, the purpose of the Templar Order is not to punish mages for the crimes of the Tevinter Imperium, but rather to prevent anything like the old Imperium from returning.

The "old" Imperium is still there.  Tevinter never fell and they certainly are still ruled by magisters.

This. The Order prevented nothing, all they did was indeed PUNISH others for their crimes.

And yes they punish, they enforce imprisonment. Which in all sense of the word is a punishment. Their goal in life is to keep mages imprisoned. For a Orders whos purpose is not to punish, they seem to devote a hell lot of their lifes doing so.

[The Elder King]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Talking about the Tevinter Imperium..

All their Mages and Magisters, now have as much power and strength as they did 900 years ago. The "culprits" to those past events run amok, while those who's only connection to the Imperium is they share a common gift are oppressed.

.

The modern Tevinter isn't as powerful as the old one by far. It's a shadow of its former glory and power. A powerful one, but still a shadow.

[Terrorize69]

hhh89 wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Talking about the Tevinter Imperium..

All their Mages and Magisters, now have as much power and strength as they did 900 years ago. The "culprits" to those past events run amok, while those who's only connection to the Imperium is they share a common gift are oppressed.

.

The modern Tevinter isn't as powerful as the old one by far. It's a shadow of its former glory and power. A powerful one, but still a shadow.

Fenris would disagree with you.

And I believe he is the only one as of yet to provide a indepth working of the Imperium and what life is like in Tevinter, he makes the point that over the years the Magisters have regained all control and power they lose.

"Some battles are won by inches" Was the quote he used, referring to the Imperium slowly taking back what they once had untill they were back where they started.

[The Elder King]

Terrorize69 wrote...



Fenris would disagree with you.

And I believe he is the only one as of yet to provide a indepth working of the Imperium and what life is like in Tevinter, he makes the point that over the years the Magisters have regained all control and power they lose.

"Some battles are won by inches" Was the quote he used, referring to the Imperium slowly taking back what they once had untill they were back where they started.

Ah, you were referring to their power inside Tevinter. On that, I agree, yes. I thought you were talking about their military power, which pales in comparison of the old Empire.