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[General User]

Terrorize69 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

General User wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Talking about the Tevinter Imperium..

All their Mages and Magisters, now have as much power and strength as they did 900 years ago. The "culprits" to those past events run amok, while those who's only connection to the Imperium is they share a common gift are oppressed.

Maybe Templars should of been a bigger focus in Tevinter if their goal was to prevent the rise of the Imperium, which they failed to do so. Seems to me Templars punish/oppress mages elsewhere just because they have no power to do so to the real suspects.

As others have said, the purpose of the Templar Order is not to punish mages for the crimes of the Tevinter Imperium, but rather to prevent anything like the old Imperium from returning.

The "old" Imperium is still there.  Tevinter never fell and they certainly are still ruled by magisters.

This. The Order prevented nothing, all they did was indeed PUNISH others for their crimes.

And yes they punish, they enforce imprisonment. Which in all sense of the word is a punishment. Their goal in life is to keep mages imprisoned. For a Orders whos purpose is not to punish, they seem to devote a hell lot of their lifes doing so.

I don't know what to tell you then.  I can't force you to use the English language correctly, much less attempt to understand the perspective of another side of a debate.

All I can tell you is the truth: prior to their leaving  the Chantry, the Templar Order's primary purpose was to ensure that mages were protected from the public and that the public was protected from mages.  Their measures may seem harsh, but the fact that their purpose was protective (as opposed to punitive) disqualifies those methods as "punishment."

Modifié par General User, 23 octobre 2012 - 08:45 .

[Sainna]

Will side with mages, I think most really will >.>
Or well will side with mages and still try to have a more 'light' circle so the young mages get their training without losing everything at the same time. And I would stop the whole mages cant have familys thing >: (

[Vandicus]

Terrorize69 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Talking about the Tevinter Imperium..

All their Mages and Magisters, now have as much power and strength as they did 900 years ago. The "culprits" to those past events run amok, while those who's only connection to the Imperium is they share a common gift are oppressed.

.

The modern Tevinter isn't as powerful as the old one by far. It's a shadow of its former glory and power. A powerful one, but still a shadow.

Fenris would disagree with you.

And I believe he is the only one as of yet to provide a indepth working of the Imperium and what life is like in Tevinter, he makes the point that over the years the Magisters have regained all control and power they lose.

"Some battles are won by inches" Was the quote he used, referring to the Imperium slowly taking back what they once had untill they were back where they started.

So you discount the thousand years of freedom enjoyed by much of Thedas?

The Tevinter Magisters enslaves or kills mages who are unwilling to participate in their depravities(although in theory a person with enormous natural potential would escape this fate). The purpose in the restrictions placed on mages(some of which the Tevinter Imperium also employs, they have their own Circle system) is to protect the freedoms of others(as well as protect mages).


Its basically

Oppress some people to protect more people, or allow everyone to be oppressed

Modifié par Vandicus, 23 octobre 2012 - 08:47 .

[silentassassin264]

MisterJB wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
The "old" Imperium is still there.  Tevinter never fell and they certainly are still ruled by magisters.

And the Templars have led three Exalted Marches to free the North. They failed and now, the best they can do is ensure the South remains a free land of free mundanes.

They haven't prevented anything.  The only reason the Imperium has not gone to take back their lands is because they have to deal with the Qunari this time around.  If the Qunari were not constantly harrassing the Imperium, they would have taken back their holdings centuries ago.

[Terrorize69]

General User wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

General User wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Talking about the Tevinter Imperium..

All their Mages and Magisters, now have as much power and strength as they did 900 years ago. The "culprits" to those past events run amok, while those who's only connection to the Imperium is they share a common gift are oppressed.

Maybe Templars should of been a bigger focus in Tevinter if their goal was to prevent the rise of the Imperium, which they failed to do so. Seems to me Templars punish/oppress mages elsewhere just because they have no power to do so to the real suspects.

As others have said, the purpose of the Templar Order is not to punish mages for the crimes of the Tevinter Imperium, but rather to prevent anything like the old Imperium from returning.

The "old" Imperium is still there.  Tevinter never fell and they certainly are still ruled by magisters.

This. The Order prevented nothing, all they did was indeed PUNISH others for their crimes.

And yes they punish, they enforce imprisonment. Which in all sense of the word is a punishment. Their goal in life is to keep mages imprisoned. For a Orders whos purpose is not to punish, they seem to devote a hell lot of their lifes doing so.

I don't know what to tell you then.  I can't force you to use the English language correctly, much less attempt to understand the perspective of another side of a debate.

All I can tell you is the truth: prior to their leaving  the Chantry, the Templar Order's primary purpose was to ensure that mages were protected from the public and that the public was protected from mages.  Their measures may seem harsh, but the fact that their purpose was protective (as opposed to punitive) disqualifies those methods as "punishment."

Really? You want to drop to the "attempting to insult" other peoples understanding on the English language, how mature of you.

Your "truth" seems to miss one vital aspect. Tell me, what did the Templars use to protect people from mages and vise versa?

I'll give you a hint, it beings with C.

[The Hierophant]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Really? You want to drop to the "attempting to insult" other peoples understanding on the English language, how mature of you.

Your "truth" seems to miss one vital aspect. Tell me, what did the Templars use to protect people from mages and vise versa?

I'll give you a hint, it beings with C.

Cookies?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 23 octobre 2012 - 08:51 .

[MisterJB]

silentassassin264 wrote...
They haven't prevented anything.  The only reason the Imperium has not gone to take back their lands is because they have to deal with the Qunari this time around.  If the Qunari were not constantly harrassing the Imperium, they would have taken back their holdings centuries ago.

They would have tried. Highly trained warriors with the ability to nullify all magic are certainly the best mundanes can use to fight the magisters.
And the templars have prevented the southern mages from recreating the Imperium.

[General User]

Terrorize69 wrote...
Really? You want to drop to the "attempting to insult" other peoples understanding on the English language, how mature of you.

Your "truth" seems to miss one vital aspect. Tell me, what did the Templars use to protect people from mages and vise versa?

I'll give you a hint, it beings with C.

Is it "Chains"?

Modifié par General User, 23 octobre 2012 - 08:54 .

[Terrorize69]

General User wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Really? You want to drop to the "attempting to insult" other peoples understanding on the English language, how mature of you.

Your "truth" seems to miss one vital aspect. Tell me, what did the Templars use to protect people from mages and vise versa?

I'll give you a hint, it beings with C.

Is it "Chains"?

Correct, and since most mages/templars didn't end up pregant all the time. We can assume they were not used for pleasure.. all the time..

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
They haven't prevented anything.  The only reason the Imperium has not gone to take back their lands is because they have to deal with the Qunari this time around.  If the Qunari were not constantly harrassing the Imperium, they would have taken back their holdings centuries ago.

They would have tried. Highly trained warriors with the ability to nullify all magic are certainly the best mundanes can use to fight the magisters.
And the templars have prevented the southern mages from recreating the Imperium.

Considering that southern Thedas weren't the centre of the Imperium, and the bulk of the mages of the Tevinter  probably returned in Tevinter after the indipendence of the southern lands, we don't know how much difficult it was.
About the first part of the post, I think the southern Thedas will have hard times after the resolution of the mage-templar war, that could seriusly weaken the Andrastian nations. They should thank the fact that the possiblity of an alliance between Tevinter and Qunari are impossible. Otherwise they'd be pretty much screwed.

[silentassassin264]

MisterJB wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
They haven't prevented anything.  The only reason the Imperium has not gone to take back their lands is because they have to deal with the Qunari this time around.  If the Qunari were not constantly harrassing the Imperium, they would have taken back their holdings centuries ago.

They would have tried. Highly trained warriors with the ability to nullify all magic are certainly the best mundanes can use to fight the magisters.
And the templars have prevented the southern mages from recreating the Imperium.

They wouldn't have just tried.  The templars have shown a wonderful streak of ineptitude when it comes to dealing with blood magic.  All magisters are blood mages.  The Imperium is as strong as it ever was.  It is just preoccupied since they never made peace with the Qunari who one upped magic with bfgs.  

[General User]

Terrorize69 wrote...

General User wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Really? You want to drop to the "attempting to insult" other peoples understanding on the English language, how mature of you.

Your "truth" seems to miss one vital aspect. Tell me, what did the Templars use to protect people from mages and vise versa?

I'll give you a hint, it beings with C.

Is it "Chains"?

Correct, and since most mages/templars didn't end up pregant all the time. We can assume they were not used for pleasure.. all the time..

If you're trying to make the point that the Templar Order was harsh, even oppressive, you needn't bother.  I'm way ahead of you on that. 

My point was rather that calling the consignment of mages to the Circles a "punishment" simply is not accurate because it is not reflective of the purpose for which such things were done.

Modifié par General User, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:07 .

[Maclimes]

General User wrote...

My point was rather that calling the consignment of mages to the Circles a "punishment" simply is not accurate because it is not reflective of the purpose for which such things were done.

Sort of like putting a territorial dog behind a fence. It's not done to punish the dog, it's done to prevent the dog from hurting anyone. From the dog's point of view, maybe the distinction is just semantics. But there is a distinction.

[TobiTobsen]

silentassassin264 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
They haven't prevented anything.  The only reason the Imperium has not gone to take back their lands is because they have to deal with the Qunari this time around.  If the Qunari were not constantly harrassing the Imperium, they would have taken back their holdings centuries ago.

They would have tried. Highly trained warriors with the ability to nullify all magic are certainly the best mundanes can use to fight the magisters.
And the templars have prevented the southern mages from recreating the Imperium.

They wouldn't have just tried.  The templars have shown a wonderful streak of ineptitude when it comes to dealing with blood magic.  All magisters are blood mages.  The Imperium is as strong as it ever was.  It is just preoccupied since they never made peace with the Qunari who one upped magic with bfgs.  

The old, powerful Empire was destroyed by some barbarians from the south...

[Sylvius the Mad]

General User wrote...

My point was rather that calling the consignment of mages to the Circles a "punishment" simply is not accurate because it is not reflective of the purpose for which such things were done.

But it is still oppression, regardless of why it is done.

And the only justification I have yet seen for any such oppression relies on the underlying assumption that mundanes and mages warrant relevantly similar levels of concern.

As soon as mages don't accept that, the oppression then needs to be sustained by force.

[General User]

Maclimes wrote...

General User wrote...

My point was rather that calling the consignment of mages to the Circles a "punishment" simply is not accurate because it is not reflective of the purpose for which such things were done.

Sort of like putting a territorial dog behind a fence. It's not done to punish the dog, it's done to prevent the dog from hurting anyone. From the dog's point of view, maybe the distinction is just semantics. But there is a distinction.

Aye.  Very much so.  Quite a good analogy actually.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
Considering that southern Thedas weren't the centre of the Imperium, and the bulk of the mages of the Tevinter  probably returned in Tevinter after the indipendence of the southern lands, we don't know how much difficult it was.
About the first part of the post, I think the southern Thedas will have hard times after the resolution of the mage-templar war, that could seriusly weaken the Andrastian nations. They should thank the fact that the possiblity of an alliance between Tevinter and Qunari are impossible. Otherwise they'd be pretty much screwed.

I was referring mostly to the new generations of mages.
I do agree with the danger this civil war poses to Southern Thedas, however. The new Tevinter enemy units revealed indicates the Magisters reached the same conclusions

silentassassin264 wrote...
They wouldn't have just tried.  The
templars have shown a wonderful streak of ineptitude when it comes to
dealing with blood magic.  All magisters are blood mages.  The Imperium
is as strong as it ever was.  It is just preoccupied since they never
made peace with the Qunari who one upped magic with bfgs.  

There are a lot more templars than there are magisters, however.
The
Imperium is "little more than a dilapidated old slattern, crouching in
the far north of Thedas, drunkenly cursing at passersby to recall her
faded beauty." Which is not to say they aren't extremely dangerous but
they are certainly not the empire that once held back Dumat for 200 years of war.

If not templars, what do you suggest mundanes lay their hopes on? Mages? Qunari?

[silentassassin264]

General User wrote...

My point was rather that calling the consignment of mages to the Circles a "punishment" simply is not accurate because it is not reflective of the purpose for which such things were done.

It is still punishment even if it was not why it was done.  If we will happened to round up everyone in the world with an incurable and communicable disease and quarantine them in Antartica as a way to prevent the disease from spreading and forcing it to die off, it would not be intentionally to punish the people with said completely imaginative disease that in no way reflects anything in real life, I am pretty sure they would not see eye to eye with you.  You are punishing people to protect others.  No matter how you cut it, removing people's liberty is punishment.

[General User]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

General User wrote...

My point was rather that calling the consignment of mages to the Circles a "punishment" simply is not accurate because it is not reflective of the purpose for which such things were done.

But it is still oppression, regardless of why it is done.

And the only justification I have yet seen for any such oppression relies on the underlying assumption that mundanes and mages warrant relevantly similar levels of concern.

As soon as mages don't accept that, the oppression then needs to be sustained by force.

Like I said, I agree that it's a form of oppression.  But I also happen to agree with the viewpoint that it is a necessary and acceptable form and degree of oppression given the very real dangers uncontrolled magic and mages represent in Thedas.

Modifié par General User, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:17 .

[TheJediSaint]

Maclimes wrote...

General User wrote...

My point was rather that calling the consignment of mages to the Circles a "punishment" simply is not accurate because it is not reflective of the purpose for which such things were done.

Sort of like putting a territorial dog behind a fence. It's not done to punish the dog, it's done to prevent the dog from hurting anyone. From the dog's point of view, maybe the distinction is just semantics. But there is a distinction.

The fence also protects the dog, as well.

[Terrorize69]

General User wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

General User wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Really? You want to drop to the "attempting to insult" other peoples understanding on the English language, how mature of you.

Your "truth" seems to miss one vital aspect. Tell me, what did the Templars use to protect people from mages and vise versa?

I'll give you a hint, it beings with C.

Is it "Chains"?

Correct, and since most mages/templars didn't end up pregant all the time. We can assume they were not used for pleasure.. all the time..

If you're trying to make the point that the Templar Order was harsh, even oppressive, you needn't bother.  I'm way ahead of you on that. 

My point was rather that calling the consignment of mages to the Circles a "punishment" simply is not accurate because it is not reflective of the purpose for which such things were done.

Ok lets put it this way, could mages leave the circle and do whatever they want when they want? Could they say "No thanks, I'd rather live with my parents then live in the circle."

Or were they just given the choice, go to the circle or be hunted down and classed as outlaws?

No matter what the Circle was intended to be and represent, it was still an area which Templars confined mages if they wished to live. That is classed as a prison, and prison is and always will be a punishment.

Having your freedom to live your life the way you choose taken away from you, and threatened with death should you wish to do otherwise, is a pretty harsh punishment.

Not to mention the whole, "Jail your family for asking after you"

[MisterJB]

It exists so that mundanes can live their lives the way they choose to and so that mages can live peacefully amongst their own. So that mundane children won't be bled out at parties to entertain the guests and so that mage children won't be torn apart by scared mobs of mundanes.
It's certainly not as pleasant or uplifting as shouthing "For Freedom!" like heroes are supposed to but it is necessary

[Vandicus]

Yeah its harsh. The Tevinter Imperium is harsher.

[silentassassin264]

MisterJB wrote...

It exists so that mundanes can live their lives the way they choose to and so that mages can live peacefully amongst their own. So that mundane children won't be bled out at parties to entertain the guests and so that mage children won't be torn apart by scared mobs of mundanes.
It's certainly not as pleasant or uplifting as shouthing "For Freedom!" like heroes are supposed to but it is necessary

That would not happen if the Chantry did not teach a doctrine of fearing mages because they are evil, vile and can't control themselves from being so.  The Chantry teaches that mages and mundanes cannot coexist and it forces itself to be a self fulfilling prophecy.  

[MisterJB]

silentassassin264 wrote...
That would not happen if the Chantry did not teach a doctrine of fearing mages because they are evil, vile and can't control themselves from being so.  The Chantry teaches that mages and mundanes cannot coexist and it forces itself to be a self fulfilling prophecy.  

I don't need someone to tell me that those with power will abuse it to realize this, all I need to do is open a story book and read about Tevinter or the ocupation of Ferelden. It's a staple of humanity.