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[General User]

Terrorize69 wrote...

General User wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

General User wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Really? You want to drop to the "attempting to insult" other peoples understanding on the English language, how mature of you.

Your "truth" seems to miss one vital aspect. Tell me, what did the Templars use to protect people from mages and vise versa?

I'll give you a hint, it beings with C.

Is it "Chains"?

Correct, and since most mages/templars didn't end up pregant all the time. We can assume they were not used for pleasure.. all the time..

If you're trying to make the point that the Templar Order was harsh, even oppressive, you needn't bother.  I'm way ahead of you on that. 

My point was rather that calling the consignment of mages to the Circles a "punishment" simply is not accurate because it is not reflective of the purpose for which such things were done.

Ok lets put it this way, could mages leave the circle and do whatever they want when they want? Could they say "No thanks, I'd rather live with my parents then live in the circle."

Or were they just given the choice, go to the circle or be hunted down and classed as outlaws?

No matter what the Circle was intended to be and represent, it was still an area which Templars confined mages if they wished to live. That is classed as a prison, and prison is and always will be a punishment.

Having your freedom to live your life the way you choose taken away from you, and threatened with death should you wish to do otherwise, is a pretty harsh punishment.

Not to mention the whole, "Jail your family for asking after you"

Mages were not sent to prisons, they were sent to Circles.  Circles were organizations with an entirely different purpose and that matters.  Again, that could qualify as fairly harsh treatment, but not punishment.

[EmperorSahlertz]

silentassassin264 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

It exists so that mundanes can live their lives the way they choose to and so that mages can live peacefully amongst their own. So that mundane children won't be bled out at parties to entertain the guests and so that mage children won't be torn apart by scared mobs of mundanes.
It's certainly not as pleasant or uplifting as shouthing "For Freedom!" like heroes are supposed to but it is necessary

That would not happen if the Chantry did not teach a doctrine of fearing mages because they are evil, vile and can't control themselves from being so.  The Chantry teaches that mages and mundanes cannot coexist and it forces itself to be a self fulfilling prophecy.  

No it doesn't.

[Sylvius the Mad]

General User wrote...

Like I said, I agree that it's a form of oppression.  But I also happen to agree with the viewpoint that it is a necessary and acceptable form and degree of oppression given the very real dangers uncontrolled magic and mages represent in Thedas.

I'd like you to show your work on that.  Why is it acceptable?  If the mages outnumbered the mundanes, would it no longer be acceptable?  Or would it still be okay, because you see the mages being oppressed as a lesser evil when compared to mundanes living in fear?

And it's fear from which you're protecting them.  Nothing more.

[silentassassin264]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

It exists so that mundanes can live their lives the way they choose to and so that mages can live peacefully amongst their own. So that mundane children won't be bled out at parties to entertain the guests and so that mage children won't be torn apart by scared mobs of mundanes.
It's certainly not as pleasant or uplifting as shouthing "For Freedom!" like heroes are supposed to but it is necessary

That would not happen if the Chantry did not teach a doctrine of fearing mages because they are evil, vile and can't control themselves from being so.  The Chantry teaches that mages and mundanes cannot coexist and it forces itself to be a self fulfilling prophecy.  

No it doesn't.

Yes it does.  The Chantry teaches that mages are to be feared so the common folks are afraid of the mages.  The mages are locked up "for their own safety" so you don't have villages trying to kill the witchkid.  The mages often resent being locked up and you often get Anders or blood mages.  Either one proves that the Chantry is right that mages will resort to forbidden magic and/or be general menaces to society and the cycle continues.  

[CrazyRah]

If i get the chance i will side with the mages. My goal isn't to topple the Chantry and create a new Tevinter Imperium but to change the situation. The Circle isn't acceptable due to the level of opression the mages suffer with being forced to be imprisoned there. It will need great reformation before i find it acceptable but complete freedom for the mages isn't something i advocate either, magic got the potential to be very dangerous.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Considering that southern Thedas weren't the centre of the Imperium, and the bulk of the mages of the Tevinter  probably returned in Tevinter after the indipendence of the southern lands, we don't know how much difficult it was.
About the first part of the post, I think the southern Thedas will have hard times after the resolution of the mage-templar war, that could seriusly weaken the Andrastian nations. They should thank the fact that the possiblity of an alliance between Tevinter and Qunari are impossible. Otherwise they'd be pretty much screwed.

I was referring mostly to the new generations of mages.
I do agree with the danger this civil war poses to Southern Thedas, however. The new Tevinter enemy units revealed indicates the Magisters reached the same conclusions

Mages weren't exactly popular back then, considering the Blights. I think that at the time some mages would've be eager to live in a castle protected by common folk. Though I don't remember if the formation of the Circle was pacific or traumatic.
About the civil war and its consequences, they still had the advantage that both Imperium and Qunari couldn't launch a full-scale invasion on the south without leaving the North vulnerable to the other side. I do think that regardless the outcome the Andrastian nations should prepare for defend themselves.

[Heimdall]

silentassassin264 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

It exists so that mundanes can live their lives the way they choose to and so that mages can live peacefully amongst their own. So that mundane children won't be bled out at parties to entertain the guests and so that mage children won't be torn apart by scared mobs of mundanes.
It's certainly not as pleasant or uplifting as shouthing "For Freedom!" like heroes are supposed to but it is necessary

That would not happen if the Chantry did not teach a doctrine of fearing mages because they are evil, vile and can't control themselves from being so.  The Chantry teaches that mages and mundanes cannot coexist and it forces itself to be a self fulfilling prophecy.  

No it doesn't.

Yes it does.  The Chantry teaches that mages are to be feared so the common folks are afraid of the mages.  The mages are locked up "for their own safety" so you don't have villages trying to kill the witchkid.  The mages often resent being locked up and you often get Anders or blood mages.  Either one proves that the Chantry is right that mages will resort to forbidden magic and/or be general menaces to society and the cycle continues.  

You know, I actually can't recall at the moment an instance in which the Chantry taught that.  That's not a point of argument, I honestly can't think of one right now, perhaps I am merely forgetting.

I always took the prejiduce of the common folk to be the result of fearing the powerful and the unknown.  Point being, people would fear mages and their strange potent abilities whether the Chantry told them to or not.

[MisterJB]

silentassassin264 wrote...
Yes it does.  The Chantry teaches that mages are to be feared so the common folks are afraid of the mages.  The mages are locked up "for their own safety" so you don't have villages trying to kill the witchkid.  The mages often resent being locked up and you often get Anders or blood mages.  Either one proves that the Chantry is right that mages will resort to forbidden magic and/or be general menaces to society and the cycle continues.  

Very well. Let's say the Chantry didn't teach people to fear mages. Now they're just children who can sneeze and suddenly the whole room is on fire and adults who can kill you with a snap of their fingers and make everyone forget you ever existed with a slit on the wrist. You think they won't be feared?

And there are many mages who never suffered any opression and decided to use blood magic. People will use whatever means available to rise in life. And mages have acess to resources mundanes can only dream about.

[Fast Jimmy]

Not that this is all that "On Topic" but...

You'd think there would be more research by mages to block possession? I know we have the Litany of Andralla in DA:O that prevents direct possession from one abomination to another, but it seems like there would be a better way to just say "wear this charm and no demon can take control of you." Other then, of course, severing their connection to the Fade and making them Tranquil.

After all... if I was locked in prison for all of my life, and the only hope I had at getting out was to prove I was not a danger anymore, I'd spend all of my spare time trying to chase that goal. Instead, it seems like the Mages (who know infinitely more about the Fade and spirits than a Templar does) just seem to sit on their hands, researching magical herbology or other more frivolous pursuits.

If making someone Tranquil prevents possession, then there is a way to stop possession. If there is a way to stop possession, then it needs to be better understood so that it can be applied without the negative side effects.


Someone who catches a disease and survives has the immunity and can fight off further infections. Problem is that it runs the risk of killing the person in the mean time. Hence we have vaccines, which give a measured but effective dose of the disease, which gives the resistance but none of the side effects... like death.

I'm not saying that there is a vaccine for possession, but its seems like over a millenia of the concept of "locking people in towers" isn't a really smart long term solution.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:07 .

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...


And there are many mages who never suffered any opression and decided to use blood magic. People will use whatever means available to rise in life. And mages have acess to resources mundanes can only dream about.

Are you saying that if every mage will be free, every mage will resort to blood magic?

[Vicious]

If making someone Tranquil prevents possession, then there is a way to stop possession.

In the novel 'Asunder' a tranquil becomes an Abomination.

[Fast Jimmy]

hhh89 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...


And there are many mages who never suffered any opression and decided to use blood magic. People will use whatever means available to rise in life. And mages have acess to resources mundanes can only dream about.

Are you saying that if every mage will be free, every mage will resort to blood magic?

I think he is saying if every mage is free, blood magic is inevitable. Which is true.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
Are you saying that if every mage will be free, every mage will resort to blood magic?

Not every mage, certainly. Only that mages have more ways to suceed in life than mundanes.
Forget about slavery, how do we stop the mundanes from becoming second class citizens?

[Face of Evil]

silentassassin264 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

It exists so that mundanes can live their lives the way they choose to and so that mages can live peacefully amongst their own. So that mundane children won't be bled out at parties to entertain the guests and so that mage children won't be torn apart by scared mobs of mundanes.
It's certainly not as pleasant or uplifting as shouthing "For Freedom!" like heroes are supposed to but it is necessary

That would not happen if the Chantry did not teach a doctrine of fearing mages because they are evil, vile and can't control themselves from being so.  The Chantry teaches that mages and mundanes cannot coexist and it forces itself to be a self fulfilling prophecy.

The part about mundane children being bled out is a reference to the Tevinter Imperium. And the Imperial Chantry certainly does not teach that mages are evil or can't control themselves, so you can't say the Chantry is to blame for the abuses of the magisters.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:16 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Vicious wrote...

If making someone Tranquil prevents possession, then there is a way to stop possession.

In the novel 'Asunder' a tranquil becomes an Abomination.

Really? Is it similar to DA2, where non-mages could be turned into Abominations by another Abomination? If so, then that is probably a more rare case. 

After all, if every mage in the world was Tranquil, then there could be no Abominations to turn other non-mages/Tranquil into Abominations.

But if it is a case where a Tranquil got possesed directly from a demon from the Fade, then... that's a tough one. And would kind of put the concept of turning people Tranquil into something that is totally ineffective.

[Terrorize69]

General User wrote...
Mages were not sent to prisons, they were sent to Circles.  Circles were organizations with an entirely different purpose and that matters.  Again, that could qualify as fairly harsh treatment, but not punishment.

While the Circles did offer benefits to Mages, their prime purpose was always to contain mages within, for their own "protection". No matter the benefits and reasons, the circles would always of been a fancy prison, escape carried a death sentence, although not saying it always came down to that, plenty were brought back alive. But it was down to the Templar, they were fully in their "right" to strike an apostate down.

Girl escapes to see her dying mother, Templar finds her, he can kill her on the spot. No questions would be asked.

Circles were not a choice, you either went or you was an apostate, and to be an apostate is be a walking death sentence.

The choice between living your life confined to an area for the rest of your life under armed guard, never being able to see your family again. Or the choice to live a life of freedom but to watch over your shoulder day in and day out, waiting for someone to try strike you down.

That is no way to live.

Modifié par Terrorize69, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:12 .

[Face of Evil]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Really? Is it similar to DA2, where non-mages could be turned into Abominations by another Abomination? If so, then that is probably a more rare case.

Sort of. The Tranquil in question — Pharamonde — deliberately caused himself to be possessed as a way of reversing his condition. The novel explains that Tranquil mages are completely unappealing to demons, but they're not completely possession-proof.

That said, it's mention that Tranquility could be reversed with the assistance of a benevolent spirit. Possession isn't necessary.

Terrorize69 wrote...

The choice between living your life confined to an area for the rest of your life under armed guard, never being able to see your family again. Or the choice to live a life of freedom but to watch over your shoulder day in and day out, waiting for someone to try strike you down.

Circle mages can see their families. Leandra goes to see Bethany. Finn was often in contact with his parents.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:18 .

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Are you saying that if every mage will be free, every mage will resort to blood magic?

Not every mage, certainly. Only that mages have more ways to suceed in life than mundanes.
Forget about slavery, how do we stop the mundanes from becoming second class citizens?

There could be rules. An organization composed by both mages and non-mages who watch over the respect of the rules.
Though ultimately I'm not pro-mage. I'm neutral. I'm not sure how to prevent the huge issues that having mages live in whatever places they want (because there are issues) would provoke.

[MisterJB]

Terrorize69 wrote...
That is no way to live.

It's much more merciful and lenient than what mundanes or weak mages go through in Tevinter.

[silentassassin264]

MisterJB wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
Yes it does.  The Chantry teaches that mages are to be feared so the common folks are afraid of the mages.  The mages are locked up "for their own safety" so you don't have villages trying to kill the witchkid.  The mages often resent being locked up and you often get Anders or blood mages.  Either one proves that the Chantry is right that mages will resort to forbidden magic and/or be general menaces to society and the cycle continues.  

Very well. Let's say the Chantry didn't teach people to fear mages. Now they're just children who can sneeze and suddenly the whole room is on fire and adults who can kill you with a snap of their fingers and make everyone forget you ever existed with a slit on the wrist. You think they won't be feared?

And there are many mages who never suffered any opression and decided to use blood magic. People will use whatever means available to rise in life. And mages have acess to resources mundanes can only dream about.

No one is saying mages are not supposed to learn how to control magic.  All the have to do is have a school in each Chantry with and Enchanter to train any of the local mage kiddies.  If you don't villify the mages you would also have plenty willing to work with you and your templars so if you have a rogue mage villain, you would have good magic on the side of the law and order.  It is like guns in real life.  A two year old can accidentally kill you with it or an adult douche can kill you with one.  We also happen to have cops with guns so one jerk with a gun (or several jerks with guns) cannot destroy a whole town.  

And yes there are people who used blood magic without being forced.  You will always have power hungry people (and blood magic itself is not evil.   The chantry just doesn't like it because they can't control it.  Merrill was not running around murdering people for lulz).  But guess what?  You don't need magic to do unspeakable acts of evil.  Arl Howe, Harwen Raleigh (the dragon summoner), Branka, etc. all proved you could be a powerful sociopath without the use of magic. 

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
There could be rules. An organization composed by both mages and non-mages who watch over the respect of the rules.
Though ultimately I'm not pro-mage. I'm neutral. I'm not sure how to prevent the huge issues that having mages live in whatever places they want (because there are issues) would provoke.

I'm not just worried about mages breaking the rules. Mages are much more naturally equiped to perform any type of work than a mundane.
If mages and templars join the police force, what will non templar mundane guardsmen be reduced to? Keeping people from walking on the grass? Mundane Healers will never reach the level of expertise of a Spirit Healer. If mages are free, are mundanes doomed to see them as the elite, to live in alienages while mages live in mansions?

[Heimdall]

silentassassin264 wrote...
The chantry just doesn't like it because they can't control it.

The chantry doesn't like it because it can control people's minds

You know, the same reason most people that don't use it don't like it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

silentassassin264 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

It exists so that mundanes can live their lives the way they choose to and so that mages can live peacefully amongst their own. So that mundane children won't be bled out at parties to entertain the guests and so that mage children won't be torn apart by scared mobs of mundanes.
It's certainly not as pleasant or uplifting as shouthing "For Freedom!" like heroes are supposed to but it is necessary

That would not happen if the Chantry did not teach a doctrine of fearing mages because they are evil, vile and can't control themselves from being so.  The Chantry teaches that mages and mundanes cannot coexist and it forces itself to be a self fulfilling prophecy.  

No it doesn't.

Yes it does.  The Chantry teaches that mages are to be feared so the common folks are afraid of the mages.  The mages are locked up "for their own safety" so you don't have villages trying to kill the witchkid.  The mages often resent being locked up and you often get Anders or blood mages.  Either one proves that the Chantry is right that mages will resort to forbidden magic and/or be general menaces to society and the cycle continues.  

The only kind of mages the Chantry teaches should be feared, are Maleficar. Some of the Sisters and Mothers of the Chantry, interpretate what is said in the Chant differently though.

[Terrorize69]

Face of Evil wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

The choice between living your life confined to an area for the rest of your life under armed guard, never being able to see your family again. Or the choice to live a life of freedom but to watch over your shoulder day in and day out, waiting for someone to try strike you down.

Circle mages can see their families. Leandra goes to see Bethany. Finn was often in contact with his parents.

True, some cases mages could see family, but family was expected to go to the circle. But it wasn't always the case, or the case most of the time. Many were denied the chance to see family, others where threatened. Both of those examples could be seen as unique cases, Leandra was a noble in act2.

In DA and DA2 you hear more often then not, about mages denied seeing their familys.

[silentassassin264]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
There could be rules. An organization composed by both mages and non-mages who watch over the respect of the rules.
Though ultimately I'm not pro-mage. I'm neutral. I'm not sure how to prevent the huge issues that having mages live in whatever places they want (because there are issues) would provoke.

I'm not just worried about mages breaking the rules. Mages are much more naturally equiped to perform any type of work than a mundane.
If mages and templars join the police force, what will non templar mundane guardsmen be reduced to? Keeping people from walking on the grass? Mundane Healers will never reach the level of expertise of a Spirit Healer. If mages are free, are mundanes doomed to see them as the elite, to live in alienages while mages live in mansions?

Templars (and fellow Enchanters working with them) would be the police force.  Templars would be able to spend time enforcing the law and being the guardsman/law men if they were not spending their whole time watching over a prison.  

And seeing as Spirit Healers do not fit ini your pocket when adventuring, you would still need an apothecary and normal healers to give you health potions/poultices, herbal remedies, poisons, etc.