656 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

silentassassin264 wrote...
If you don't villify the mages you would also have plenty willing to work with you and your templars so if you have a rogue mage villain, you would have good magic on the side of the law and order.  It is like guns in real life.  A two year old can accidentally kill you with it or an adult douche can kill you with one.  We also happen to have cops with guns so one jerk with a gun (or several jerks with guns) cannot destroy a whole town.  

First, I question whether mages would be willing to pursue mage criminals. We have seen many, many times police forces evidencing much bias in who they protect.
Second, imagine this situation. A blood mage rapes a mundane woman and then forces her to forget about it entirely (Cole proves that this is possible). Blood Magic leaves no traces and let's assume the criminal was careful enough to avoid leaving any either whether it be bruses or semen.
How do we know this crime happened, let along punish the culprit for it?

Third, I'm less worried about mage criminals and more about social inequality. How do we mantain equality when a group of people can perform any job better and faster than the other?

[silentassassin264]

Lord Aesir wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
The chantry just doesn't like it because they can't control it.

The chantry doesn't like it because it can control people's minds

You know, the same reason most people that don't use it don't like it.

You can stop blood magic from controlling you with the nice little invention called a dweomer rune or this nice hat called the conspirator's foil.  

Though seriously, I would definitely get tatooed like Fenris for antimagics if I was in Thedas and not a mage.

[silentassassin264]

MisterJB wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
If you don't villify the mages you would also have plenty willing to work with you and your templars so if you have a rogue mage villain, you would have good magic on the side of the law and order.  It is like guns in real life.  A two year old can accidentally kill you with it or an adult douche can kill you with one.  We also happen to have cops with guns so one jerk with a gun (or several jerks with guns) cannot destroy a whole town.  

First, I question whether mages would be willing to pursue mage criminals. We have seen many, many times police forces evidencing much bias in who they protect.
Second, imagine this situation. A blood mage rapes a mundane woman and then forces her to forget about it entirely (Cole proves that this is possible). Blood Magic leaves no traces and let's assume the criminal was careful enough to avoid leaving any either whether it be bruses or semen.
How do we know this crime happened, let along punish the culprit for it?

Third, I'm less worried about mage criminals and more about social inequality. How do we mantain equality when a group of people can perform any job better and faster than the other?

You have plenty of law abiders who would do it like Wynne.  That is not even a legit question.

Imagine this situation.  A rogue chloroforms a mundane woman and rapes her and she never even knows what happened.  How do we know the crime happened, let alone punish the culprit for it?

The same way the Qunari beat the Imperium.  Build better tech.  Surpass magic.  

[Face of Evil]

Lord Aesir wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
The chantry just doesn't like it because they can't control it.

The chantry doesn't like it because it can control people's minds

You know, the same reason most people that don't use it don't like it.

There's also that whole "summoning demons" thing.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

[
I'm not just worried about mages breaking the rules. Mages are much more naturally equiped to perform any type of work than a mundane.
If mages and templars join the police force, what will non templar mundane guardsmen be reduced to? Keeping people from walking on the grass? Mundane Healers will never reach the level of expertise of a Spirit Healer. If mages are free, are mundanes doomed to see them as the elite, to live in alienages while mages live in mansions?

That's absolutely no problem, in my opinion. Anders was healing people for free. There are a great number of poors and problems in Andrastian society. Mages could offer a great help to society.
Mage healers are indeed bettet than normal people, but they have more chances to saving people too.
It's not like healers are probably well-paid to beigin with. The Chevaliers will not have their role, power and influences decreased by the mages, since mages can't do what the Chevaliers do.  The rich merchants will continue their trades. And so on.
About the normal police force, it's not like they can't do nothing about a rogue mage (though they'd have more problems). And they could continue to do their work for non-mages. The new organization will have to wath over mages only.

[Face of Evil]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Imagine this situation.  A rogue chloroforms a mundane woman and rapes her and she never even knows what happened.  How do we know the crime happened, let alone punish the culprit for it?

Well, she'd at least remember the chloroforming.

Y'know, chloroform is likely to kill the person you're knocking unconscious.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:51 .

[silentassassin264]

Face of Evil wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
The chantry just doesn't like it because they can't control it.

The chantry doesn't like it because it can control people's minds

You know, the same reason most people that don't use it don't like it.

There's also that whole "summoning demons" thing.

That is completely optional.  Blood magic is primarily a means of casting without lyrium.  You can use it to summon demons but that is like complaining that a chemist can make a bomb out of common household cleaners.  Yeah it can be done (pretty easily btw) but I don't really think it is worth banning chlorox over it.  

Face of Evil wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Imagine this situation.  A rogue chloroforms a mundane woman and rapes her and she never even knows what happened.  How do we know the crime happened, let alone punish the culprit for it?

Well, she'd at least remember the chloroforming.

Not necessarily.  And their are better drugs at that than even chloroform.  Mix the right poisons and you have slight amnesia and unconsciousness.  Simply put, that situation is quite possible to reproduce without magic.  

Modifié par silentassassin264, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:42 .

[MisterJB]

It is a legit question. Police forces have ignored the crimes of the powerful; whether it be an ethnic group or a single person; manye times in both our world and Thedas.

The woman will rememer falling uncouscious, thus she will report the attack and the police can go from there. Not so if blood magic changers her memories.

The qunari haven't beat the Imperium, they forced them to a stalemate. And while I am 100% in favor of technological advancement, it works for the qunari only because they haven't shared the secret of it with anyone. In human society, mages would have acess to it as well as magic.

[The Elder King]

I want to point out that in the scenario we're talking about (mages free),  in my opinion, blood magic should be banned, and that the Circles should remain as schools for children to learn magic in proper way, and that severe punishment will be given if a mage would've be discovered praticing blood magic.
That certainly doesn't completely prevent the problem of blood magic, but it should decrease the numbers of users.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
That's absolutely no problem, in my opinion. Anders was healing people for free. There are a great number of poors and problems in Andrastian society. Mages could offer a great help to society.
Mage healers are indeed bettet than normal people, but they have more chances to saving people too.
It's not like healers are probably well-paid to beigin with. The Chevaliers will not have their role, power and influences decreased by the mages, since mages can't do what the Chevaliers do.  The rich merchants will continue their trades. And so on.
About the normal police force, it's not like they can't do nothing about a rogue mage (though they'd have more problems). And they could continue to do their work for non-mages. The new organization will have to wath over mages only.

Anders was healing people for free because the refugees would have turned him over to the templars otherwise for half a copper. Free mages and I suspect healing magic will not come cheap. Why wouldn't chevaliers have their fortunes diminished by templars? They are, supposedly, the greatest knights of Orlais. Well, here are much more deadly forces, blood mages.
How long until every single king in Thedas has a person squadron of blood mages who require peasant's blood to fuel their spells?

Mundanes merchants will probrably have little problem but, ultimately, the average mage simply has many more opportunities to raise in life than the average mundane.

Who would force this new organization to watch over mages only when they are so much more effective than normal guardsmen? And that still returns to the original problem. Mages being fit for "special jobs" mundanes won't ever be able to perform. 

[Face of Evil]

silentassassin264 wrote...

That is completely optional.  Blood magic is primarily a means of casting without lyrium.  You can use it to summon demons but that is like complaining that a chemist can make a bomb out of common household cleaners.  Yeah it can be done (pretty easily btw) but I don't really think it is worth banning chlorox over it.

Yes, yes, it's all "optional." That doesn't excuse the fact that some really truly horrendous stuff can ONLY be performed using blood magic.

Normal magic could not trap an entire village in the Fade. Normal magic could not create a werewolf curse. Normal magic could not allow a serial killer to re-construct his dead wife from the body parts of his victims. Normal magic could not have turned Orsino into the Harvester.

Why does anyone NEED blood magic? The number of times I have seen it used for good are far outweighed by its evil applications. It practically begs itself to be used for evil purposes.

[silentassassin264]

MisterJB wrote...

It is a legit question. Police forces have ignored the crimes of the powerful; whether it be an ethnic group or a single person; manye times in both our world and Thedas.

The woman will rememer falling uncouscious, thus she will report the attack and the police can go from there. Not so if blood magic changers her memories.

The qunari haven't beat the Imperium, they forced them to a stalemate. And while I am 100% in favor of technological advancement, it works for the qunari only because they haven't shared the secret of it with anyone. In human society, mages would have acess to it as well as magic.

I am really not getting your point.  With Templars and Enchanters as your law enforcement, I am not seeing how there is going to be some inherent mage favortism.  Yeah some important mages may get away with crime.  But important not mages, Son of the Arl of Denerim whose name escapes me, get away with crime.  No justice system is perfect or ever will people.  People are enforcing it and they aren't perfect.

As I said before, not necessarily.  I saw a case in real life of a woman horrified to learn there was a porn video of her on the internet where someone posioned her and raped her (and recorded it like a ****** fortunately) and she had no memory of it at all.  If you have the right drugs, which a rogue poisoner likely would, they could pull that off effortlessly.

And as Fenris said, the Qunari aren't even really trying while the Imperium is.  He said when the Qunari truly decide to attack, the imperium wouldn't stand a chance.  And technological advancement works for everyone.  If you make better medicine, make better equipment, etc. etc. being a magic user would be completely irrelevant.  As anyone could use it.  And the dwarves pulled it off too btw.  The only reason the humans haven't is because they want to keep on using magic and keep on making it taboo.  If you keep on using it as a crutch, you won't advance.

[silentassassin264]

Face of Evil wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

That is completely optional.  Blood magic is primarily a means of casting without lyrium.  You can use it to summon demons but that is like complaining that a chemist can make a bomb out of common household cleaners.  Yeah it can be done (pretty easily btw) but I don't really think it is worth banning chlorox over it.

Yes, yes, it's all "optional." That doesn't excuse the fact that some really truly horrendous stuff can ONLY be performed using blood magic.

Normal magic could not trap an entire village in the Fade. Normal magic could not create a werewolf curse. Normal magic could not allow a serial killer to re-construct his dead wife from the body parts of his victims. Normal magic could not have turned Orsino into the Harvester.

Why does anyone NEED blood magic? The number of times I have seen it used for good are far outweighed by its evil applications. It practically begs itself to be used for evil purposes.

Yes normal magic can do all of that.  You just need enough magic to cast it which is highly unlikely without lyrium.  All what you said could be accomplished with sufficient lyrium on hand.  Golems of Amgarrak pretty much covered all of that, all with lyrium.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:55 .

[Face of Evil]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Not necessarily.  And their are better drugs at that than even chloroform.  Mix the right poisons and you have slight amnesia and unconsciousness.  Simply put, that situation is quite possible to reproduce without magic.

But not as easily as with blood magic. A rogue wandering down a back alley can't just decide on the spot to drug and rape some poor woman. A blood mage can control a person's mind and do far worse with a single flick of a dagger across their wrist.

silentassassin264 wrote...

Yes normal magic can do all of that.  You just need enough magic to cast it which is highly unlikely without lyrium.  All what you said could be accomplished with sufficient lyrium on hand.

No, you could not. The power of blood dwarfs that of lyrium. The Lady of the Forest even specifies that Zathrian had to use his own blood to create the werewolf curse. The Baroness could not have drained the life from young women without the power of blood.

Just because blood magic does not have to be used for evil purposes does not change the fact that it's constantly and consistently being used for evil purposes that cannot be accomplished through any other means.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:59 .

[silentassassin264]

Face of Evil wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Not necessarily.  And their are better drugs at that than even chloroform.  Mix the right poisons and you have slight amnesia and unconsciousness.  Simply put, that situation is quite possible to reproduce without magic.

But not as easily as with blood magic. A rogue wandering down a back alley can't just decide on the spot to drug and rape some poor woman. A blood mage can control a person's mind with a single nick across their wrist.

silentassassin264 wrote...

Yes normal magic can do all of that.  You just need enough magic to cast it which is highly unlikely without lyrium.  All what you said could be accomplished with sufficient lyrium on hand.

No, you could not. The power of blood dwarfs that of lyrium. The Lady of the Forest even specifies that Zathrian had to use his own blood to create the werewolf curse. The Baroness could not have drained the life from young women without the power of blood.

Just because blood magic does not have to be used for evil does not change the fact that it's constantly and consistently being used for evil.

a) If they were a rapist carrying the poison, yes they could.
THEY DID IT WITHOUT ANY MAGIC AT ALL IN GOLEMS OF AMGARRAK.  Yes that needed caps.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...


Anders was healing people for free because the refugees would have turned him over to the templars otherwise for half a copper. Free mages and I suspect healing magic will not come cheap. Why wouldn't chevaliers have their fortunes diminished by templars? They are, supposedly, the greatest knights of Orlais. Well, here are much more deadly forces, blood mages.
How long until every single king in Thedas has a person squadron of blood mages who require peasant's blood to fuel their spells?

Mundanes merchants will probrably have little problem but, ultimately, the average mage simply has many more opportunities to raise in life than the average mundane.

Who would force this new organization to watch over mages only when they are so much more effective than normal guardsmen? And that still returns to the original problem. Mages being fit for "special jobs" mundanes won't ever be able to perform. 

I did say in another post that blood magic should be banned (so Chevaliers are stilly usefuls), that the Circle should remain as schools for learning magic (and the children have to live here, at least until they learn how to control their powers) and that severe punishments should be given to mages that were found using or learning blood magic.
About Anders, he could've hided in Darktown and not show his magic. Common people can't understand if a person is a mage. You're assuming the worst about Anders. There were many things I didn't like about him, but I think he wanted to help people in Kirkwall.
About mages being fit for "special jobs", there weren't complain when they saved our ass with the Qunari. That "special job" couldn't have been done by neither mundanes or elites. Mages could benefit society in great ways.
And ultimately, you should consider that I said that I don't know if this system would work. I said that I'm not sure about this particular issue (though even in the case I think they should live in a determinate place, the freedom I'd give to them are far greater than both templars and the Chantry could accept).

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 11:03 .

[Face of Evil]

silentassassin264 wrote...

a) If they were a rapist carrying the poison, yes they could.
THEY DID IT WITHOUT ANY MAGIC AT ALL IN GOLEMS OF AMGARRAK.  Yes that needed caps.

a) He still had to prepare the poison beforehand. What, did he make a drug, decide to go on a midnight stroll and opted on a whim to ravish some woman in an alley?

Yes, bad things happen without magic. I'm not saying they don't. I'm saying is that magic — and in particular blood magic — allows for bad things that wouldn't be possible without it.

YES THEY DID. A Tevinter Magister used magic to help create the Harvester. THIS IS SPELLED OUT IMPLICITLY IN DARION'S JOURNAL AND THESE ANCIENT WRITINGS.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 23 octobre 2012 - 11:09 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

MisterJB wrote...

Mundanes merchants will probrably have little problem but, ultimately, the average mage simply has many more opportunities to raise in life than the average mundane.

This is true. They have extra talents, so they're going to be more successful in life. And the society as a whole is going to tremendously benefit from their work.

Sounds good to me.

[MisterJB]

silentassassin264 wrote...
I am really not getting your point.  With Templars and Enchanters as your law enforcement, I am not seeing how there is going to be some inherent mage favortism.  Yeah some important mages may get away with crime.  But important not mages, Son of the Arl of Denerim whose name escapes me, get away with crime.  No justice system is perfect or ever will people.  People are enforcing it and they aren't perfect.

There are templars in Tevinter who, supposedly, work as law enforcement. Unfortunately, the mages have become so powerful that templars can barely act at all. I fear this happening in Southern Thedas and feel the best way to avoid this is simply by separating mages from the general population as humanely as possible.

As I said before, not necessarily.  I saw a case in real life of a woman horrified to learn there was a porn video of her on the internet where someone posioned her and raped her (and recorded it like a ****** fortunately) and she had no memory of it at all.  If you have the right drugs, which a rogue poisoner likely would, they could pull that off effortlessly.

Fair enough. But we should attempt to consider options to diminish the threat criminals pose. Introducing mages is counterproductive to that.

And as Fenris said, the Qunari aren't even really trying while the Imperium is.  He said when the Qunari truly decide to attack, the imperium wouldn't stand a chance.  And technological advancement works for everyone.  If you make better medicine, make better equipment, etc. etc. being a magic user would be completely irrelevant.  As anyone could use it.  And the dwarves pulled it off too btw.  The only reason the humans haven't is because they want to keep on using magic and keep on making it taboo.  If you keep on using it as a crutch, you won't advance.

Hardly, magic in the world of today would still give a population a tremendous advantage over their neighbours. It might appear meaningless when compared to say, the internet or A-bombs but imagine its uses in every day life. And its dangers, both destructive and insidious. And, of course, Thedas is still much too distant from our level of technological advancement.
I do agree with something tough. Magic has become too much of a crutch for humanity.

[silentassassin264]

Face of Evil wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

a) If they were a rapist carrying the poison, yes they could.
THEY DID IT WITHOUT ANY MAGIC AT ALL IN GOLEMS OF AMGARRAK.  Yes that needed caps.

a) He still had to prepare the poison beforehand. What, did he make a drug, decide to go on a midnight stroll and opted on a whim to do some ravishing?

YES THEY DID. A Tevinter Magister used magic to help create the Harvester. THIS IS SPELLED OUT IMPLICITLY IN THIS CODEX.

A Tevinter Magister did not trap a Thaig in another dimension.  That was all lyrium dwarf stuff.  Trapping people into inorganic monstronsities also required no magic, the was just plain dwarf stuff (Anvil of the Void, not necessarily Amgarrak).  All of the atrocities done by blood magic can be done without mages at all.  All you need is lyrium.  Lyrium is the essence of magic and anyone can use it.

[MisterJB]

ninjaed.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 octobre 2012 - 11:09 .

[MisterJB]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
This is true. They have extra talents, so they're going to be more successful in life. And the society as a whole is going to tremendously benefit from their work.

Sounds good to me.

I point you towards Tevinter.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...


Hardly, magic in the world of today would still give a population a tremendous advantage over their neighbours. It might appear meaningless when compared to say, the internet or A-bombs but imagine its uses in every day life. And its dangers, both destructive and insidious. And, of course, Thedas is still much too distant from our level of technological advancement.
I do agree with something tough. Magic has become too much of a crutch for humanity.

Well, I do think that Qunari are far stronger than Tevinter. Which for southern Thedas isn't that important, since each of them are far stronger than any Andrastian nation. Whoever wins their struggle will became the main threat for the Andrastian nations, which will be likely weakened by the mage-templar war (and the national civil wars that will certainly be present).

[silentassassin264]

MisterJB wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
I am really not getting your point.  With Templars and Enchanters as your law enforcement, I am not seeing how there is going to be some inherent mage favortism.  Yeah some important mages may get away with crime.  But important not mages, Son of the Arl of Denerim whose name escapes me, get away with crime.  No justice system is perfect or ever will people.  People are enforcing it and they aren't perfect.

There are templars in Tevinter who, supposedly, work as law enforcement. Unfortunately, the mages have become so powerful that templars can barely act at all. I fear this happening in Southern Thedas and feel the best way to avoid this is simply by separating mages from the general population as humanely as possible.

Tevinter templars have little to no anti-magical abilities and are literally just soldiers who serve the Imperial Chantry which is run by the magisters, according to David Gaider.  That is not a good example.  That is why I am saying to use the Templars of the normal Chantry working with Enchanters.  

[Heimdall]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
The chantry just doesn't like it because they can't control it.

The chantry doesn't like it because it can control people's minds

You know, the same reason most people that don't use it don't like it.

You can stop blood magic from controlling you with the nice little invention called a dweomer rune or this nice hat called the conspirator's foil.  

Though seriously, I would definitely get tatooed like Fenris for antimagics if I was in Thedas and not a mage.

Point being that there are plenty of legitimate reasons to consider blood magic abominable without jumping to the idea that the Chantry only dislikes it because they can't control it.