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[Face of Evil]

silentassassin264 wrote...

A Tevinter Magister did not trap a Thaig in another dimension.  That was all lyrium dwarf stuff.

They only sealed off Amgarrak to prevent the Harvester — a horrific monster created partly by magic — from getting out.

silentassassin264 wrote...

Trapping people into inorganic monstronsities also required no magic, the was just plain dwarf stuff (Anvil of the Void, not necessarily Amgarrak).  All of the atrocities done by blood magic can be done without mages at all.  All you need is lyrium.  Lyrium is the essence of magic and anyone can use it.

True. But that's one example against all the others.

As I said above, I've never stated that bad things won't happen without magic. I'm saying that magic allows very, very bad things to happen that couldn't happen without it.

There could be no werewolf curse without blood magic. No Harvesters, no Blackmarsh in the Fade, no templars turned into abominations. Warden's Keep would not have been infested with demons without blood magic and the darkspawn would never exist.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 23 octobre 2012 - 11:17 .

[MisterJB]

silentassassin264 wrote...
Tevinter templars have little to no anti-magical abilities and are literally just soldiers who serve the Imperial Chantry which is run by the magisters, according to David Gaider.  That is not a good example.  That is why I am saying to use the Templars of the normal Chantry working with Enchanters.  

Lambert is an extremely powerful templar(admitadelly, he could have improved his abilties in Orlais) clearly loyal to the ideals of the Chantry and he was stationed in Tevinter. I imagine there are others such as him doing their best to serve in there but, according to him, all of his investigations were impaired by the magisters. The same could very well happen in Southern Thedas.

[SeptimusMagistos]

MisterJB wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
This is true. They have extra talents, so they're going to be more successful in life. And the society as a whole is going to tremendously benefit from their work.

Sounds good to me.

I point you towards Tevinter.

Again, Tevinter sucks because it's a repressive system involving slavery, not because of mages. They aren't making it any better, but you could replace each of them with a mundane noble and the system would suck just as hard.

[MisterJB]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
Again, Tevinter sucks because it's a repressive system involving slavery, not because of mages. They aren't making it any better, but you could replace each of them with a mundane noble and the system would suck just as hard.

Perhaps;altough a mundane despot would be fair easier to overthrow such as Loghain who was voted out of his position, it is magic that allows them to keep their power; but it certainly proves that having free mages does not necessarely improve the lives of mundanes.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
Tevinter templars have little to no anti-magical abilities and are literally just soldiers who serve the Imperial Chantry which is run by the magisters, according to David Gaider.  That is not a good example.  That is why I am saying to use the Templars of the normal Chantry working with Enchanters.  

Lambert is an extremely powerful templar(admitadelly, he could have improved his abilties in Orlais) clearly loyal to the ideals of the Chantry and he was stationed in Tevinter. I imagine there are others such as him doing their best to serve in there but, according to him, all of his investigations were impaired by the magisters. The same could very well happen in Southern Thedas.

I don't understand that phrase. He didn't work for the White Divine while he was a templar in Tevinter, right?

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 11:20 .

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
Again, Tevinter sucks because it's a repressive system involving slavery, not because of mages. They aren't making it any better, but you could replace each of them with a mundane noble and the system would suck just as hard.

Perhaps;altough a mundane despot would be fair easier to overthrow such as Loghain who was voted out of his position, it is magic that allows them to keep their power; but it certainly proves that having free mages does not necessarely improve the lives of mundanes.

Which means that mages shouldn't have ruling position. Not necessary that mages shouldn't be free.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
I don't understand that phrase. He didn't work for the White Divine while he was a templar in Tevinter, right?

Probrably not. However, I can't say that for sure because there is a certain amount of contact between Val-Royeaux and Minrathous. For instance, Rhys' master was sent there as a spy.
It's possible he was stationed there by either Divine.

[silentassassin264]

 

Face of Evil wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

A Tevinter Magister did not trap a Thaig in another dimension.  That was all lyrium dwarf stuff.

They only sealed off Amgarrak to prevent the Harvester — a horrific monster created partly by magic — from getting out.

That still mimicked Blackmarsh perfectly and still was done without magic.  

Face of Evil wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Trapping people into inorganic monstronsities also required no magic, the was just plain dwarf stuff (Anvil of the Void, not necessarily Amgarrak).  All of the atrocities done by blood magic can be done without mages at all.  All you need is lyrium.  Lyrium is the essence of magic and anyone can use it.

True. But that's one example against all the others.

As I said above, I've never stated that bad things won't happen without magic. I'm saying that magic allows very, very bad things to happen that couldn't happen without it.

I am not saying magic will not be used for evil.  But under my plan of Templars and Enchanters actually working together instead of Templars imprisoning mages, they would very capable of dealing with criminal mages and you would at least get rid of a large reason for mages to go nutters in the first place by not imprisoning them for being born.  You won't have a utopia no matter what you do but I could at least cosign with an attempt to protect liberties.  

MisterJB wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
Tevinter templars have little to no anti-magical abilities and are literally just soldiers who serve the Imperial Chantry which is run by the magisters, according to David Gaider.  That is not a good example.  That is why I am saying to use the Templars of the normal Chantry working with Enchanters.  

Lambert is an extremely powerful templar(admitadelly, he could have improved his abilties in Orlais) clearly loyal to the ideals of the Chantry and he was stationed in Tevinter. I imagine there are others such as him doing their best to serve in there but, according to him, all of his investigations were impaired by the magisters. The same could very well happen in Southern Thedas.

Don't know who Lambert is.  I am guessing it is from a book or comic?  I am just saying what Gaider said on the forums.  But like I said, the Tevinter Templars are naturally going to be imparied by magisters because of the hierarchy in Tevinter.  It would not be like that in my model.  The enchanters and templars would be on the same level as Chantry police/guardsmen so no magisters trying to dictate over everything.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 23 octobre 2012 - 11:29 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

MisterJB wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
Again, Tevinter sucks because it's a repressive system involving slavery, not because of mages. They aren't making it any better, but you could replace each of them with a mundane noble and the system would suck just as hard.

Perhaps;altough a mundane despot would be fair easier to overthrow such as Loghain who was voted out of his position, it is magic that allows them to keep their power; but it certainly proves that having free mages does not necessarely improve the lives of mundanes.

I was responding to the specific scenario in which the mages rose in the society by being super-efficient at doing work.

The scenario in which they act like nobles is exactly as bad as any scenario involving nobles.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
Which means that mages shouldn't have ruling position. Not necessary that mages shouldn't be free.

But can free mages be stopped from positions of power? It might just be as Lambert says.
Grant the mages concessions and they will want more and more until the templars have as much power in the South as they have in the North.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
I don't understand that phrase. He didn't work for the White Divine while he was a templar in Tevinter, right?

Probrably not. However, I can't say that for sure because there is a certain amount of contact between Val-Royeaux and Minrathous. For instance, Rhys' master was sent there as a spy.
It's possible he was stationed there by either Divine.

I thought the two Divines were in conflict (they Black one could be mages, after all). I doubt that they share the templars. The Black Divine has probably the same mindset of the Archon and the magisters.

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 11:28 .

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Which means that mages shouldn't have ruling position. Not necessary that mages shouldn't be free.

But can free mages be stopped from positions of power? It might just be as Lambert says.
Grant the mages concessions and they will want more and more until the templars have as much power in the South as they have in the North.

I did say in my previous post that I'm not sure on the matter. Which is the reason I can't be pro-mage. I'm saying that even if mages are granted complete freedom, that doesn't mean they'll be granted the option of becoming nobles, or becoming kings. I think this is a thing the Chantry (no matter how progressive) could not concede, considering that is the only thing Andraste explicitely said about magic and mages.

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 11:39 .

[MisterJB]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
I was responding to the specific scenario in which the mages rose in the society by being super-efficient at doing work.

The scenario in which they act like nobles is exactly as bad as any scenario involving nobles.

Which doesn't impede mages from becoming a ruling class.
Similarly, the Keepers we have seen have all shown a great concern for the well being of their clans. But the Dalish clans are still a form of mage supremacist society where only mages are ellectable for positions of power and there is nothing in place to keep them in check or any way of changing their decisions other than outright disobeying them.

[ImperatorMortis]

Uuugh. Can we just talk about Mages without having to talk about Templars? Its the same freakin debate. Can we atleast postpone this till we get more info from DA3?

Its like we're going around in circles here.

[SeptimusMagistos]

MisterJB wrote...

Which doesn't impede mages from becoming a ruling class.

No. Nor does it force them to. Personally I've always envisioned free mages as making up a wealthy and politically influential class existing parallel to the nobles rather than replacing them in positions of authority.

MisterJB wrote...

Similarly, the Keepers we have seen have all shown a great concern for the well being of their clans. But the Dalish clans are still a form of mage supremacist society where only mages are ellectable for positions of power and there is nothing in place to keep them in check or any way of changing their decisions other than outright disobeying them.

While I'm not sure that's an accurate description of the Keeper's power, Dalish are kind of a special case. Their mages happen to double as their historians, which is a pretty big deal for a race obsessed with history and the fact they were once all mages.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

Which doesn't impede mages from becoming a ruling class.
Similarly, the Keepers we have seen have all shown a great concern for the well being of their clans. But the Dalish clans are still a form of mage supremacist society where only mages are ellectable for positions of power and there is nothing in place to keep them in check or any way of changing their decisions other than outright disobeying them.

I doubt that a clan would follow a Keeper like mindless zombie. Having knows Zathrian's involvment in the curse, they would've probably killed him. Or forced him to release the curse.
And there are reasons for the dalish to have a mage leader, which Andrastian society hasn't. I doubt that the dalish mages forced their control on the clans.

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 11:38 .

[MisterJB]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Uuugh. Can we just talk about Mages without having to talk about Templars? Its the same freakin debate. Can we atleast postpone this till we get more info from DA3?

Its like we're going around in circles here.

Please, we've been going around in circles for years. I've had these very debates dozens upon dozens of times and I shall have them dozens of times more.

[Terrorize69]

MisterJB wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Uuugh. Can we just talk about Mages without having to talk about Templars? Its the same freakin debate. Can we atleast postpone this till we get more info from DA3?

Its like we're going around in circles here.

Please, we've been going around in circles for years. I've had these very debates dozens upon dozens of times and I shall have them dozens of times more.

We've been in circles for 900 years, now the circle is broken and people are complaining, geez can't win

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
I doubt that a clan would follow a Keeper like mindless zombie. Having knows Zathrian's involvment in the curse, they would've probably killed him. Or forced him to release the curse.
And there are reasons for the dalish to have a mage leader, which Andrastian society hasn't. I doubt that the dalish mages forced their control on the clans.

Well, I don't know much about what leads to elves following the Keepers.
I only pointed it out as an example of a society where mages had a somewhat benefic effect but that was still not an equitable society.

[Terrorize69]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
I doubt that a clan would follow a Keeper like mindless zombie. Having knows Zathrian's involvment in the curse, they would've probably killed him. Or forced him to release the curse.
And there are reasons for the dalish to have a mage leader, which Andrastian society hasn't. I doubt that the dalish mages forced their control on the clans.

Well, I don't know much about what leads to elves following the Keepers.
I only pointed it out as an example of a society where mages had a somewhat benefic effect but that was still not an equitable society.

Keepers are not the uncontested rulers of clans, but the clan does greatly admire and respect the Keeper in a way that makes it seem so. But its not the magic they admire, its the knowledge and the keepers duty and dedication to keeping the old ways alive.

The Dalish prize that above all else.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
I doubt that a clan would follow a Keeper like mindless zombie. Having knows Zathrian's involvment in the curse, they would've probably killed him. Or forced him to release the curse.
And there are reasons for the dalish to have a mage leader, which Andrastian society hasn't. I doubt that the dalish mages forced their control on the clans.

Well, I don't know much about what leads to elves following the Keepers.
I only pointed it out as an example of a society where mages had a somewhat benefic effect but that was still not an equitable society.

Considering that the Keepers have no privileges and a lot of responsibilities (not only as the clan's leader, but as the one responsible of rescovering the elf's history and culture, and not let it falls into oblivion), I don't see probems with the dalish society, which can work exclusively in this type of society. If the elves might regain a state, I don't know if the mages will be the only one who will have the chance to be the ruling class.

[MisterJB]

Terrorize69 wrote...
Keepers are not the uncontested rulers of clans, but the clan does greatly admire and respect the Keeper in a way that makes it seem so. But its not the magic they admire, its the knowledge and the keepers duty and dedication to keeping the old ways alive.
The Dalish prize that above all else.

Is there a way to change a Keeper's decision without having to abandon the clan? Something to keep their power in check?
And yet only mages are electable to the position. Can't mundanes dedicate themselves to keeping their knowledge?

[silentassassin264]

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Keepers are not the uncontested rulers of clans, but the clan does greatly admire and respect the Keeper in a way that makes it seem so. But its not the magic they admire, its the knowledge and the keepers duty and dedication to keeping the old ways alive.
The Dalish prize that above all else.

Is there a way to change a Keeper's decision without having to abandon the clan? Something to keep their power in check?
And yet only mages are electable to the position. Can't mundanes dedicate themselves to keeping their knowledge?

We never really get to explore Dalishness in enough detail to know.  We don't know the limits of a Keeper's authority.  Unfortunately with a set human protagonist for DA3, I doubt that will change.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Keepers are not the uncontested rulers of clans, but the clan does greatly admire and respect the Keeper in a way that makes it seem so. But its not the magic they admire, its the knowledge and the keepers duty and dedication to keeping the old ways alive.
The Dalish prize that above all else.

Is there a way to change a Keeper's decision without having to abandon the clan? Something to keep their power in check?
And yet only mages are electable to the position. Can't mundanes dedicate themselves to keeping their knowledge?

To keep, no. To recovering, I think they're using methods that required magic (not in the way Merrill did, though). Consider that elven magic is different from human magic. Marethari was able to stop, for a while, the taint's progression. As far as I know, no human mage is able to do that.
Maybe their knowledge are most related to magic, so they have to use magic to recover it.