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[movieguyabw]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

"Crashed on Eden"

I wonder if that implies that the Normandy crashed on Eden Prime.

That'd be significant. End the story where the story began.

Flora and moons don't match. The only garden world in canon that would actually be in FTL range of Earth is in Alpha Centauri, about four light years away.

I think the marooning was actually supposed to be permanent pre-EC, they just didn't think it through to its logical conclusion. It's "symbolic." May need mushrooms to make better sense of it.

Four light years, eh? That's not that far. The Normandy could make it back to Earth in roughtly six hours at cruising speed(16 lightyears per day)

Also there are various circumstances which could explain the differences if it were Eden Prime.

1. The flora varies on different parts of Earth. We have forests, rainforests, deserts, jungles, tundras, etc. It's not unbelievable that other worlds are that varied as well.

2. The arrangement of the moons arguably could be due to the time of day. Just like with Earth.

We'll likely never know...  unless someone tweets about it. 

[Auintus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I happen to agree wholeheartedly, but just for the sake of debate: why don't you choose Control? As the Reaper Controller, you still have the option of setting the Reapers free if they don't pose a threat to civilization without the Catalyst's control, but you don't incur the risk they might turn out hostile.

Debate for the sake of debate? You are my new best friend.

I have two issues with the Control ending, one based on EC, one based on personal interpretation.
In EC, Shepard takes a clear stance on what he will do with his Reaper forces defend(paragon) or lead(renegade) the general masses. I, as a player, do not get to decide the use of the Reapers.
Personally, I see the final decision as a question of what synthetics truly are. In Destroy, the player sees them as a threat to be eradicated. In Control, the player sees them as tools to be used. And in Synthesis, the player sees them as equals to be understood. That's just my personal view of the ending and why I choose Synthesis.

[Steelcan]

Auintus wrote...


Debate for the sake of debate? You are my new best friend.

I have two issues with the Control ending, one based on EC, one based on personal interpretation.
In EC, Shepard takes a clear stance on what he will do with his Reaper forces defend(paragon) or lead(renegade) the general masses. I, as a player, do not get to decide the use of the Reapers.
Personally, I see the final decision as a question of what synthetics truly are. In Destroy, the player sees them as a threat to be eradicated. In Control, the player sees them as tools to be used. And in Synthesis, the player sees them as equals to be understood. That's just my personal view of the ending and why I choose Synthesis.

. Why do you think destroy treats synthetics that way?  I see it more as having to sacrifice them for the good of the galaxy.  Their death is regrettable, but it doesn't make them less alive than the other endings.

[Auintus]

Steelcan wrote...
 Why do you think destroy treats synthetics that way?  I see it more as having to sacrifice them for the good of the galaxy.  Their death is regrettable, but it doesn't make them less alive than the other endings.

Not just the Geth, the Reapers themselves. You sacrifice synthetics to destroy more synthetics. If you take the time to understand the Reapers themselves, they play basically the role of a time capsule. They ensure that important things are not lost. Synthesis seeks that understanding. Destroy regards them as too dangerous to even consider cooperation, the same thing that caused the Morning War of the geth. Plus the fact that, with every Reaper you kill, you erase an entire culture's memories. Destroy just doesn't sit well with me.

Modifié par Auintus, 10 décembre 2012 - 05:47 .

[Steelcan]

Auintus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
 Why do you think destroy treats synthetics that way?  I see it more as having to sacrifice them for the good of the galaxy.  Their death is regrettable, but it doesn't make them less alive than the other endings.

Not just the Geth, the Reapers themselves. You sacrifice synthetics to destroy more synthetics. If you take the time to understand the Reapers themselves, they play basically the role of a time capsule. They ensure that important things are not lost. Synthesis seeks that understanding. Destroy regards them as too dangerous to even consider cooperation, the same thing that caused the Morning War of the geth. Plus the fact that, with every Reaper you kill, you erase an entire culture's memories. Destroy just doesn't sit well with me.

Sorry but I just have no sympathy for the giant space squids. They have done nothing to warrant sympathy or understanding from me. What have they ever done that would make cooperation seem beneficial, even the geth tried to cooperate with organics, the reaper just kill an harvest everyone they see.

And the culture in each reaper, what's your point?  Those people are dead, they died millennia ago, their culture has been dead for just as long.

[fiendishchicken]

And even if the people in the Reapers were alive, would you really want live in that form of existence forever?

No, I will show the Reapers the same mercy they showed everyone else. I will blow them and the glowboy to hell.

[Vortex13]

Auintus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
 Why do you think destroy treats synthetics that way?  I see it more as having to sacrifice them for the good of the galaxy.  Their death is regrettable, but it doesn't make them less alive than the other endings.

Not just the Geth, the Reapers themselves. You sacrifice synthetics to destroy more synthetics. If you take the time to understand the Reapers themselves, they play basically the role of a time capsule. They ensure that important things are not lost. Synthesis seeks that understanding. Destroy regards them as too dangerous to even consider cooperation, the same thing that caused the Morning War of the geth. Plus the fact that, with every Reaper you kill, you erase an entire culture's memories. Destroy just doesn't sit well with me.

I can respect your opinion on the Reapers, but I can't agree with it. Laying aside of how awe inspiring/terrifying the were before the Catalyst you are still left with the fact that each Reaper; each time capsule as you put it; is essentially a WMD. The Catslyst (if you believe him) created the Reapers as tools to ensure the continuation of the cycle; his whole "When fire burns is it at war?" stichk. The Reapers are tools, weapons created for the sole purpose of killing all advanced intelligent life and smoothie-ing them into more Reapers.

Even if the Reapers truely hated what they had become (Soverign and Harbinger seemed to enjoy it) it still doesn't change the fact that they were created to destroy. If an ICBM gained sentience would you let it live with regular society?

You can't hug children with nuclear arms.

Modifié par Vortex13, 10 décembre 2012 - 06:01 .

[Auintus]

Steelcan wrote...

Sorry but I just have no sympathy for the giant space squids. They have done nothing to warrant sympathy or understanding from me. What have they ever done that would make cooperation seem beneficial, even the geth tried to cooperate with organics, the reaper just kill an harvest everyone they see.

And the culture in each reaper, what's your point?  Those people are dead, they died millennia ago, their culture has been dead for just as long.

The "fire burns" analogy is very accurate here. The Reapers behave as they do for a reason. The individuals die, but they are remembered as they would not be if they were just killed outright.
Geth wanted cooperation from the very begining. The Quarians drummed that out of them. The Reapers arrive with a preconception that the organic-synthetic conflict will not end and that, without their intervention, every organic race would be destroyed and forgotten. Perhaps inaccurate, but that is beside the point. Their intentions are good.

Would you burn every book on Greek culture? The people are dead, but you are erasing even their memory.

[jtav]

But they can be and are also used as construction crews. We don't kill people for what they might do later.

[Auintus]

Vortex13 wrote...

I can respect your opinion on the Reapers, but I can't agree with it. Laying aside of how awe inspiring/terrifying the were before the Catalyst you are still left with the fact that each Reaper; each time capsule as you put it; is essentially a WMD. The Catslyst (if you believe him) created the Reapers as tools to ensure the continuation of the cycle; his whole "When fire burns is it at war?" stichk. The Reapers are tools, weapons created for the sole purpose of killing all advanced intelligent life and smoothie-ing them into more Reapers.

Even if the Reapers truely hated what they had become (Soverign and Harbinger seemed to enjoy it) it still doesn't change the fact that they were created to destroy. If an ICBM gained sentience would you let it live with regular society?

You can't hug children with nuclear arms.

The Reapers exist to perserve organic life. Not the individual, but the culture.
They have no reason to hate what they've become. Through their eyes they are doing a good thing. We just have to show them otherwise. Synthesis.
No, but you can defend children from threats with massive laser beams.

[Auintus]

fiendishchicken wrote...

And even if the people in the Reapers were alive, would you really want live in that form of existence forever?

No, I will show the Reapers the same mercy they showed everyone else. I will blow them and the glowboy to hell.

The individuals are dead and gone. The Reapers only remember.

[Chashan]

Auintus wrote...


The "fire burns" analogy is very accurate here. The Reapers behave as they do for a reason. The individuals die, but they are remembered as they would not be if they were just killed outright.
Geth wanted cooperation from the very begining. The Quarians drummed that out of them. The Reapers arrive with a preconception that the organic-synthetic conflict will not end and that, without their intervention, every organic race would be destroyed and forgotten. Perhaps inaccurate, but that is beside the point. Their intentions are good.

Would you burn every book on Greek culture? The people are dead, but you are erasing even their memory.

Did the Hellenes arm their libraries with Greek Fire? Did not think so.

This is one problem I have with this notion in general: I can accept that the creature, in its infinite wisdom (sic!), would archive data in the Reaper-constructs as a convenient secondary product of building more harvesting units.
Given how blatantly contradictory, and even foolish, the creature's notion regarding its mandate is, I can even see that being the case - although the whole matter would have been far more enticing had it only promised the keys to these archives, tucked away beyond reach otherwise somewhere in dark space, in exchange for accepting another go at its preferred solution - preferred Synthesis inarguably was by the creature even in the original finale.

As is, however...I cannot in good faith accept that reasoning. The individuals are dead, and what is preserved is sociological, biological, historical and scientific data at best.
And as such, I do not mind putting these archives to the torch if it means the eradication of these avatars of eons of death.

[Auintus]

Chashan wrote...

As is, however...I cannot in good faith accept that reasoning. The individuals are dead, and what is preserved is sociological, biological, historical and scientific data at best.
And as such, I do not mind putting these archives to the torch if it means the eradication of these avatars of eons of death.

Oh. Well then, I suppose that's just a difference in priorities.

[IC-07]

Bioware and their tolerance crap.

Modifié par IC-07, 10 décembre 2012 - 06:34 .

[Steelcan]

Auintus wrote...


The "fire burns" analogy is very accurate here. The Reapers behave as they do for a reason. The individuals die, but they are remembered as they would not be if they were just killed outright.
Geth wanted cooperation from the very begining. The Quarians drummed that out of them. The Reapers arrive with a preconception that the organic-synthetic conflict will not end and that, without their intervention, every organic race would be destroyed and forgotten. Perhaps inaccurate, but that is beside the point. Their intentions are good.

Would you burn every book on Greek culture? The people are dead, but you are erasing even their memory.

. The Reapers are tools like fire, they are tools for the catalyst they don't make decisions for themselves they are indoctrinated agents.

The geth may have sought peace at first, but that didnt stop them from slaughtering billions of quarians, soldiers, elderly, women, children doesn't matter, they then proceeded to shoot down any ship regardless of intent for over 300 years.

The reapers intentions are not good, they are delusional robots working off the whims of a disfunctional AI.

[Bill Casey]

If the books did this to people who studied them...





**** yes I would burn them...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 10 décembre 2012 - 06:36 .

[Steelcan]

jtav wrote...

But they can be and are also used as construction crews. We don't kill people for what they might do later.

. We kill them for what they have done.

[Auintus]

Steelcan wrote...
The Reapers are tools like fire, they are tools for the catalyst they don't make decisions for themselves they are indoctrinated agents.

The geth may have sought peace at first, but that didnt stop them from slaughtering billions of quarians, soldiers, elderly, women, children doesn't matter, they then proceeded to shoot down any ship regardless of intent for over 300 years.

The reapers intentions are not good, they are delusional robots working off the whims of a disfunctional AI.

The Reapers have inependence, but they are given purpose, reason, by the Catalyst. That purpose is preservation of organics, whatever the cost.

Okay, I'd like a source for the "elderly, children," bit. I highly doubt they would have been on the front lines.

The Reaper's intentions are to ensure that all organic life is not eliminated, and to remember the races that rise. How is that not a good thing? They misunderstand on several points, but they are doing what they can.

[Auintus]

Bill Casey wrote...

If the books did this to people who studied them...


**** yes I would burn them...

Cerberus did worse. The Reapers are interested in efficiency and results. They have their purpose and they fulfill it. They do not cause pain without reason, though their reason is highly questionable.

[jtav]

Steelcan wrote...

jtav wrote...

But they can be and are also used as construction crews. We don't kill people for what they might do later.

. We kill them for what they have done.

Only if that's the only way they can be neutralized. It isn't. Synthesis ends the cycle and integrates them into the community.

[Steelcan]

Auintus wrote...

The Reapers have inependence, but they are given purpose, reason, by the Catalyst. That purpose is preservation of organics, whatever the cost.

Okay, I'd like a source for the "elderly, children," bit. I highly doubt they would have been on the front lines.

The Reaper's intentions are to ensure that all organic life is not eliminated, and to remember the races that rise. How is that not a good thing? They misunderstand on several points, but they are doing what they can.

It doesn't matter if they were on the front lines, every Quarian the geth got their hands on was killed.  Civilians included.
You can't kill that many people without killing civilians.

Legion disagrees with you about the reapers, his description of them in ME2 disprove that.  He reapers are a conglomeration of minds, not merely rememberence of the lost civilizations.

[Steelcan]

Auintus wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

If the books did this to people who studied them...


**** yes I would burn them...

Cerberus did worse. The Reapers are interested in efficiency and results. They have their purpose and they fulfill it. They do not cause pain without reason, though their reason is highly questionable.

. Cerberus was also interested in results.....

[Steelcan]

jtav wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

jtav wrote...

But they can be and are also used as construction crews. We don't kill people for what they might do later.

. We kill them for what they have done.

Only if that's the only way they can be neutralized. It isn't. Synthesis ends the cycle and integrates them into the community.

. By forcing every sapient being into a form of life agreeable to the reapers.  No thanks, I'm not changing every living being because the reapers want me to.

[DeinonSlayer]

Auintus wrote...

Okay, I'd like a source for the "elderly, children," bit. I highly doubt they would have been on the front lines.

They weren't on the front lines. The Geth simply didn't discriminate who they targeted after a certain point. It's not explicitly stated, but it's easily derived.

"The Geth killed billions and drove us from our homeworld. Most Quarians believe we've paid adequately for our mistake."
- Tali, ME1 elevator conversation

"We do not judge the creators' anger towards us. We did them great harm in the Morning War."
- Legion, ME2

Pre-Morning War population is "billions," plural. Current Flotilla population is 17 million, with zero population growth legally enforced since the exile so as not to strain their resources. Do the math, and that comes out to a 99.15% casualty rate, minimum. Timestamps in the Consensus mission tell us the war lasted a single year. Legion tells us the Geth are clearing "toxins" from a ground war that ended centuries earlier. An editorial heard in the Spectre office after Thessia describes the Morning War as an "unthinkable slaughter." It's not hard to connect the dots.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 10 décembre 2012 - 07:03 .

[Auintus]

Steelcan wrote...

Legion disagrees with you about the reapers, his description of them in ME2 disprove that.  He reapers are a conglomeration of minds, not merely rememberence of the lost civilizations.

Really? Fascinating, must've missed that.