Aller au contenu

Photo

"Crashed on Eden" - Guys, BioWare really does like Synthesis... *Updated* - Is Synthesis Supposed to be the Best Ending?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
370 réponses à ce sujet

#201
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 188 messages

CosmicGnosis wrote...
Goodness, I wish BioWare had handled these endings differently. Just as so many people feel like BioWare ruined their Destroy ending, I feel like they ruined my Synthesis ending.

Despite the space magic, the weird presentation of the choices from the villain, and the crushing ethical dilemma, I love the idea of Synthesis. I really do. When it was first presented to me, I was certainly confused about the entire situation, but I really liked the idea of Synthesis. I stood there for a while thinking about Synthesis vs. Destroy. I had already written off Control (although I like it more now than I did then), Destroy was the obvious default choice, and Synthesis had its amazing benefits challenged by its ethical problem. And this ethical problem has caused the majority of the fanbase to utterly reject the choice, and I'm sometimes implied to be a vile person for even considering it.

So true, so true. But I'm not so much bothered by people rejecting Synthesis on the basis of the ethical implications. That, after all, is a completely valid reason to reject it, and if choosing it nonetheless makes me a small minority, then so be it. If others' value hierarchy makes Synthesis unacceptable for them, it shows nothing more than that their worldview is different from mine. I don't exactly appreciate that moral diversity, but it's the price of living in a reasonably free society.

Truly annoying are those who claim it's stupid or even worse, indoctrination. Denigrating others' choices just to feel superior is an obnoxious trait, and too many people here on BSN are prone to it.

Based on the evidence, Synthesis does not destroy diversity. It doesn't even eliminate organics and synthetics; EDI states that the distinction still exists, and that the line has merely been blurred. The most radical and fantastic aspects of Synthesis won't even occur until a time set in the far future (example: immortality is something that will be achieved later, not now).

The humans are still humans, the krogan are still krogan, the leaves are still leaves. It's not about what your are made of. Rather, it's about who you are. Because I accept that EDI and the geth are actual living beings, I don't care that they are made of non-organic materials. Thus, why should I care if I have a synthetic aspect added to my body? I'm still me, and all the evidence indicates that my mind is intact. I'm not less of a person all because I have nanites wrapped around my DNA.

Indeed. The main problem lies with the original ending I think. That had strong implications of unifying biochemistry in spite of that making no sense at all. While it didn't actually remove diversity among organics, the message that came across was that in this case, the diversity between organics and synthetics is a bad thing. That message still exists in the form of "true life is like organics", between the geth gaining individuality and EDI's "I am alive", as if that wasn't true before. 
The EC, however, firmly rejects the interpretation that all diversity is removed. What we are may have been changed, but we are still the same people, as evidenced by various slides, among them those showing the  ME2 team members doing things completely appropriate to them.

I also believe that we should "ascend". We should change. We should embrace the unknown. We should explore new frontiers. That's what Synthesis represents to me. By choosing Synthesis, you almost literally vanquish the impossible. You dismantle the Lovecraftian mystique of the Reapers; they can be known and understood. You embrace the "other", and become a part of the "other".

I love that aspect of "embracing the unknown" and "deciphering the other", though I don't interpret it as becoming part of the "other" rather than simply connecting to it as the Catalyst says. For now. What we do with it lies in the future, the important aspect is that we don't reject it as "abomination" any longer just because it doesn't fit our erstwhile normative notions of what is natural. If I may remark that the advanced technology and advanced knowledge about life processes the Reapers show may be considered as evidence that they are indeed "ascended" in some way (not all kinds of ascension are good) from their constituent species. Synthesis sets us on the tracks to our own ascension, but it doesn't determine what it will be. It's a different ascension.

Edit:
I get the impression you let others have too much influence on your interpretation of things. That's not good. I'll never jump ship because of another's interpretation if I don't find it convincing.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 décembre 2012 - 11:31 .


#202
Siran

Siran
  • Members
  • 1 760 messages
Where does it say, that this is from Synthesis? Joker doesn't have his green eyes or the green "lines" across his body. Plus, EDI survives in Control as well, only because we don't see that particular scene in the game doesn't mean that the artist can't imagine it. Furthermore - cuncluding from a concept art that this is BioWares "preferred" ending when they said numerous times, that there is no canon ending and everyone has to make their own choice (like, in the whole game) is kinda far fetched. I don't see this as evidence for anything but a (imo beautiful) rendering of one moment in the game.

Modifié par Siran, 10 décembre 2012 - 11:46 .


#203
Zavox

Zavox
  • Members
  • 403 messages

Auintus wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Ethics are merely a basis for decision-making. My ethical code has no problem with taking advantage of a technological achievement. Or perhaps you would rather goo back to an outhouse and lack of internet? If so, that is entirely your call.


I'm guessing the ethics of forcing such a transformation on everyone.


It is a good transformation, though. Should he have had the opportunity to ask everyone their opinion, that would have been preferable. Instead, Shepard was given a one-time, immediate-answer choice to make.


Who are you to say whether it's a good transformation or not? If there's one thing that's sure, it's that never does everyone agree fully.

First of all, you have no rights to decide for all of humanity. Secondly, you're changing their very being solely on your own 'logic' (if we can call it that). Thirdly, decisions on ones own body can only be made by the owner of the body.

I'm pretty sure, if given enough time, I could sum up an entire paper of why both Synthesis and Control are an atrocity. Ethically or otherwise.

Modifié par Zavox, 10 décembre 2012 - 02:05 .


#204
CosmicGnosis

CosmicGnosis
  • Members
  • 1 594 messages

Eterna5 wrote...

Maybe you should sit back and enjoy them for what they are instead of over thinking them for months. You're only making yourself jaded and I can't help but feel your letting other people dictate what you like. 

What do you like? If you like Synthesis, pick it, and to hell with everyone else.


Ieldra2 wrote...

I get the impression you let others have too much influence on your interpretation of things. That's not good. I'll never jump ship because of another's interpretation if I don't find it convincing.


I like to consider the perspectives of others. They challenge me to form persuasive arguments for my own perspective. If the popular perspective contradicts my own, I may become concerned that I misinterpreted something along the way. If, however, I determine that I'm comfortable with my perspective, then I can confidently maintain it. That's where I'm at right now for Synthesis. At this stage, I'm rather certain that it's my canon choice.

I suppose that I do let others influence me a bit too much, but it's only because I want to truly understand their perspectives, and in doing so, they may understand mine as well. There are many people on BSN who stubbornly stick to Destroy, and don't wish to consider the validity of the other choices. I'm the opposite of those people; I want to explore the other choices.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 10 décembre 2012 - 02:47 .


#205
Samtheman63

Samtheman63
  • Members
  • 2 916 messages
what makes anyone think that picture is from the synthesis ending?

in fact im sure its not as joker doesnt have green eyes and isnt covered in glowing circuit ****.

#206
Auintus

Auintus
  • Members
  • 1 823 messages

Zavox wrote...

Who are you to say whether it's a good transformation or not? If there's one thing that's sure, it's that never does everyone agree fully.

First of all, you have no rights to decide for all of humanity. Secondly, you're changing their very being solely on your own 'logic' (if we can call it that). Thirdly, decisions on ones own body can only be made by the owner of the body.

I'm pretty sure, if given enough time, I could sum up an entire paper of why both Synthesis and Control are an atrocity. Ethically or otherwise.


I'm the guy with the button, so to speak. I have to make the choice. Synthesis makes the most sense to me, so that's what I pick. It's not like I can say, "Hey can you call off the Reapers for a second, I need to get a second opinion on this." And what about the Geth? Did they get a say in your ending? Were they given a choice?

Emergency situation, the choice had to be made right then. Would have been better if every individual had been given a choice, didn't happen that way. Half the time people don't know what's best for them anyway.

In Destroy, you eradicate the memories, the cultures, of an entire race for every Reaper you kill. Multiple genocides on an enormous scale. The memories of entire species erased irrevocably. And then you have to include the Geth. Thousands of races destroyed. Don't tell me it's better than Synthesis.

Modifié par Auintus, 10 décembre 2012 - 02:54 .


#207
Guest_Arcian_*

Guest_Arcian_*
  • Guests

Samtheman63 wrote...

what makes anyone think that picture is from the synthesis ending?

in fact im sure its not as joker doesnt have green eyes and isnt covered in glowing circuit ****.

That concept art is actually from the High-EMS Dance Battle ending in the Deep Sea Edition of ME3. Everyone lives and the Reapers kill themselves out of shame for losing a dance battle against Shepard, who is perhaps the galaxy's worst dancer of all time.

#208
CosmicGnosis

CosmicGnosis
  • Members
  • 1 594 messages
I think it's from the Synthesis ending because that's the only one in which Joker and EDI make physical contact with each other. There is no intimate contact between them in the Control ending. EDI is also smiling in the image; EDI doesn't smile outside of Synthesis.

#209
Auintus

Auintus
  • Members
  • 1 823 messages

Samtheman63 wrote...

what makes anyone think that picture is from the synthesis ending?

in fact im sure its not as joker doesnt have green eyes and isnt covered in glowing circuit ****.


In Control, Joker doesn't help EDI off the ship. Dunno why.

#210
Samtheman63

Samtheman63
  • Members
  • 2 916 messages

Arcian wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

what makes anyone think that picture is from the synthesis ending?

in fact im sure its not as joker doesnt have green eyes and isnt covered in glowing circuit ****.

That concept art is actually from the High-EMS Dance Battle ending in the Deep Sea Edition of ME3. Everyone lives and the Reapers kill themselves out of shame for losing a dance battle against Shepard, who is perhaps the galaxy's worst dancer of all time.

ah, thanks

#211
Guest_Arcian_*

Guest_Arcian_*
  • Guests

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I think it's from the Synthesis ending because that's the only one in which Joker and EDI make physical contact with each other. There is no intimate contact between them in the Control ending. EDI is also smiling in the image; EDI doesn't smile outside of Synthesis.

Two words:

CONCEPT. ART.

Three more words:

DANCE. BATTLE. ENDING.

#212
Master Shiori

Master Shiori
  • Members
  • 3 367 messages

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Who cares?


Well, I care because I'm trying to settle on a canon ending. If BioWare intended for Synthesis to be the "best", I want to understand why. There are some serious problems with Synthesis, and despite my recent arguments supporting it, I still can't make myself feel comfortable choosing it.


They didn't.

The picture you posted is from Matt Rhodes' deviantart page, which, along with most of his other ME3 drawings, aren't official concept art for the game. It's mostly his interpretation of how things in ME3 could have been (check his "Shepard goes rogue", "Retaking the Normandy" and "In the briefing room" pics). Most of those show events that either never took place in ME3, or didn't happen like the artist despiced them.

In fact, Matt himself openly admited that most of those were drawn before he knew anything about the script for ME3.

Also, just because he posted a picture that fits synthesis doesn't mean it's Bioware's prefered ending, or that hey even have a favorite ending. If the devs thought synthesis was so great, they would have made it the official ending to the game, and not bother giving us destroy or control. The fact that we did get 3 endings to choose from (such as they are..) shows that Bioware has no official opinion on the matter and want the players to pick what they feel fits their game the best.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 10 décembre 2012 - 03:11 .


#213
Fixers0

Fixers0
  • Members
  • 4 434 messages
Synthesis, is not an "everybody wins" scenario.

#214
Guest_IReuven_*

Guest_IReuven_*
  • Guests
Synthesis =
Image IPB

#215
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 188 messages

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Maybe you should sit back and enjoy them for what they are instead of over thinking them for months. You're only making yourself jaded and I can't help but feel your letting other people dictate what you like. 

What do you like? If you like Synthesis, pick it, and to hell with everyone else.


Ieldra2 wrote...

I get the impression you let others have too much influence on your interpretation of things. That's not good. I'll never jump ship because of another's interpretation if I don't find it convincing.


I like to consider the perspectives of others. They challenge me to form persuasive arguments for my own perspective. If the popular perspective contradicts my own, I may become concerned that I misinterpreted something along the way. If, however, I determine that I'm comfortable with my perspective, then I can confidently maintain it. That's where I'm at right now for Synthesis. At this stage, I'm rather certain that it's my canon choice.

I suppose that I do let others influence me a bit too much, but it's only because I want to truly understand their perspectives, and in doing so, they may understand mine as well. There are many people on BSN who stubbornly stick to Destroy, and don't wish to consider the validity of the other choices. I'm the opposite of those people; I want to explore the other choices.

As I see it, all three main endings are good endings in their way. As long as people argue from the same base, we can have a reasonable debate about what is best and where our value hierarchies and perceived consequences differ to make one better than the other. Others - like ITists and those who yell "Destroy is the only option" at every turn - I don't need to consider. I don't know, but the latter appear to be the majority here.

#216
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 188 messages

Auintus wrote...

Zavox wrote...

Who are you to say whether it's a good transformation or not? If there's one thing that's sure, it's that never does everyone agree fully.

First of all, you have no rights to decide for all of humanity. Secondly, you're changing their very being solely on your own 'logic' (if we can call it that). Thirdly, decisions on ones own body can only be made by the owner of the body.

I'm pretty sure, if given enough time, I could sum up an entire paper of why both Synthesis and Control are an atrocity. Ethically or otherwise.

I'm the guy with the button, so to speak. I have to make the choice. Synthesis makes the most sense to me, so that's what I pick. It's not like I can say, "Hey can you call off the Reapers for a second, I need to get a second opinion on this." And what about the Geth? Did they get a say in your ending? Were they given a choice?

Emergency situation, the choice had to be made right then. Would have been better if every individual had been given a choice, didn't happen that way. Half the time people don't know what's best for them anyway.

In Destroy, you eradicate the memories, the cultures, of an entire race for every Reaper you kill. Multiple genocides on an enormous scale. The memories of entire species erased irrevocably. And then you have to include the Geth. Thousands of races destroyed. Don't tell me it's better than Synthesis.

I happen to agree wholeheartedly, but just for the sake of debate: why don't you choose Control? As the Reaper Controller, you still have the option of setting the Reapers free if they don't pose a threat to civilization without the Catalyst's control, but you don't incur the risk they might turn out hostile.

#217
JamieCOTC

JamieCOTC
  • Members
  • 6 343 messages
Yes, synthesis was supposed to be the best ending, but then the game came out and then the complaints started and so they changed their minds. YOUR ending is now the best ending.

#218
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 292 messages

JamieCOTC wrote...

Yes, synthesis was supposed to be the best ending, but then the game came out and then the complaints started and so they changed their minds. YOUR ending is now the best ending.

. Lots of us don't like nonsensical pseudo science, some us don't buy into the Catalyst's bullsh*t, others think its a good idea.  It was a good move to switch to personal endings, synthesis is too unpopular to back.

#219
Vortex13

Vortex13
  • Members
  • 4 191 messages
Synthesis seems too good to be true. If people want to accuse me of calling Indoctrination on the ending then so be it, but the first time I saw the EC synthesis ending something in the back of my head was going: "Something's screwy here."

Maybe it is just poor implementation on Bioware's part, but the the fact that NOBODY is shown in the synthesis ending to be resisting the Reapers being BFFS with the galaxy strikes me as odd. Where are the people that said they would rather die fighting then give into the Reapers? What about all the people that lost loved ones in the war? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be a-okay with the "Reapers are our friends now." Heck, if nobody else then surely the Batarians would continue fighting; which does bring up the question of why we don't see and Batarians in the ending, but I digress.

Whether or not you agree that synthesis is the best and ultimate inevitable ending (I don't), and even if you throw out the forced eugenics of the ending you are still left with people; who up until five seconds ago were fighting for thier lives and freedom are throwing arms around the Reapers in friendship.

Nobody in the Galaxy, apart from Shepard, knows what the Catalyst truely is. As far as they know the Reapers were waging a war of thier own will (Which I still think they are, regardless of what the Catalyst says). So for everyone to go from fighting one minute to holding hands and rebuilding the next just screams mind control, or at the very least some brainwashing to act docile and friendly towards the Reapers.

If Synthesis was Bioware's "best" ending, the one that they hold in the highest esteem, as something that needs to happen and is inevitable; then I am going to have to question how they view real world issues of eugenics.

I mean what ever happen to killing the bad guy and saving the day?

#220
DeinonSlayer

DeinonSlayer
  • Members
  • 8 441 messages

Steelcan wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Yes, synthesis was supposed to be the best ending, but then the game came out and then the complaints started and so they changed their minds. YOUR ending is now the best ending.

. Lots of us don't like nonsensical pseudo science, some us don't buy into the Catalyst's bullsh*t, others think its a good idea.  It was a good move to switch to personal endings, synthesis is too unpopular to back.

I don't think they quite got the "end of the first Matrix + Brave New World" vibe they were hoping for... the latter is a false utopia anyway which is not to be emulated.

It doesn't bolster their argument for an inevitable organic-synthetic conflict by giving Shepard no way to dispute it.

#221
spirosz

spirosz
  • Members
  • 16 356 messages
I don't believe Bioware ever truly wanted a "best" ending, but as seen through ME3, it was very Paragon sided throughout the story, auto-dialogue, choices, whatever, maybe Bioware didn't ever really notice and since Synthesis falls under the "Paragon Choice", I can see it being favoured, compared to others. I understand how someone could see the benefits of Synthesis, but for me, it wasn't well executed to the point where I'm able to look past the ethical dilemma presented and not to say that Destroy and Control don't have dilemmas, it's just, I can stomach it enough to the point where it doesn't bother me.

#222
movieguyabw

movieguyabw
  • Members
  • 1 723 messages
Yeah, it was pretty obvious from the start that they wanted Synthesis to be the best ending. It didn't really work out like that, though. I feel primarily because it's a concept that's never really been touched on in the trilogy, and thus it confused a lot of us at first. As it stands, the only real example we have in the series of a race that is Technorganic, would be the Reaper hordes. Sure, the Quarians use cybernetics to interface with their suits, but it's not really an idea that's played with a lot, so it falls to the wayside. Same with Shepard being partly synthetic. It's not examined enough in the narrative for us to understand the implications of it.

Not to mention that the three options come from the Catalyst - the leader of the Reapers - and will, by nature, paint each choice in a negative light. If Synthesis was to be the whole "Gordian Knot" choice, then it should've come from Shepard being like "Wait, what would happen if Synthetics and Organics were the same?" and the Catalyst outright saying "That will never suit our plans". At least, structurally, that's how I feel it should've been handled. There's still ethical and moral quandaries that I can never justify with Synthesis, and thus, I have no intention of ever choosing it.

Because of this, Refuse has become the option that feels most in keeping with Shepard's character by a lot of players. And if it were possible to win, using Refuse, I can bet you right now, the majority of players would choose it.

#223
WhiteKnyght

WhiteKnyght
  • Members
  • 3 755 messages
"Crashed on Eden"

I wonder if that implies that the Normandy crashed on Eden Prime.

That'd be significant. End the story where the story began.

#224
DeinonSlayer

DeinonSlayer
  • Members
  • 8 441 messages

The Grey Nayr wrote...

"Crashed on Eden"

I wonder if that implies that the Normandy crashed on Eden Prime.

That'd be significant. End the story where the story began.

Flora and moons don't match. The only garden world in canon that would actually be in FTL range of Earth is in Alpha Centauri, about four light years away.

I think the marooning was actually supposed to be permanent pre-EC, they just didn't think it through to its logical conclusion. It's "symbolic." May need mushrooms to make better sense of it.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 10 décembre 2012 - 05:06 .


#225
WhiteKnyght

WhiteKnyght
  • Members
  • 3 755 messages

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

"Crashed on Eden"

I wonder if that implies that the Normandy crashed on Eden Prime.

That'd be significant. End the story where the story began.

Flora and moons don't match. The only garden world in canon that would actually be in FTL range of Earth is in Alpha Centauri, about four light years away.

I think the marooning was actually supposed to be permanent pre-EC, they just didn't think it through to its logical conclusion. It's "symbolic." May need mushrooms to make better sense of it.


Four light years, eh? That's not that far. The Normandy could make it back to Earth in roughtly six hours at cruising speed(16 lightyears per day)

Also there are various circumstances which could explain the differences if it were Eden Prime.

1. The flora varies on different parts of Earth. We have forests, rainforests, deserts, jungles, tundras, etc. It's not unbelievable that other worlds are that varied as well.

2. The arrangement of the moons arguably could be due to the time of day. Just like with Earth.