80 réponses à ce sujet

[HTTP 404]

Yah Da2 isnt a bad game and I don't think its thaaat great either...people overreact when expectations are so high.

1st world problems right?

[SpunkyMonkey]

ioannisdenton wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Koveras Alvane wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

I don't think you quite grasp the point in entertainment media though, the fun should far outweigh the labour aspect of it. Whereas I expect to put a bit of effort into getting into a game, say a few hous - even up to 10-15 for some games - I don't expect to have to invest 3 playthroughs before I enjoy something, totalling around 80-120 hours worth of investment before I enjoy it.

You have to appriciate just how much time that is - 2-3 working weeks for most - you could earn enough to buy a whole new system and several other games in that time. Even if you're on minimum wage 80-120 hours would get you a few very good nights out and/or a bit of action too. You really think people would sooner waste their time getting into a game?

It's like an album - some songs take 3, 4 or 5 listens before you like them - sometimes even 10-12 listens - but they are usually 3-7 minute tracks. Expecting people to invest 2 or 3 playthroughs at 80-120 hours each before they start enjoying it is just silly.

Please excuse my bluntness but when you first talk of fun and then start crunching numbers to prove your point, I find it hard to be convinced. Let me put it this way: there are games that are designed to entertain with minimal time and effort investment (like Tetris) and there are games that require time to get into. To the best of my knowledge, most RPGs fall into the latter category. With a game as polarizing as DA2, I cannot help thinking: if some people loved it from the start, some hated it, and some came to love it after giving it a chance, is the game at fault for failing to please everyone or are the players, for continuing to expecting something other than the game ultimately delivers and failing to get the many, many clues?

So if you come to me with "entertainment must entertain me/us from the first minutes on", the only advice I can give is: let yourself be entertained. The game is just bits and bytes on a piece of plastic; the enjoyment is what you do.

You totally miss my point and in doing so avoid the issue - the amount of time you're asking others to invest in DA:2 to enjoy it is way beyond reasonable.

I don't expect an RPG to be instantly enjoyable, but I do expect to be enjoying it some way through the 1st playthrough. Even then I'd give it a second go, but to expect a third chance, for a game the size of DA:2, is just silly.

My "number crunching" is just trying to put that in practical terms for you - the amount of time which you expect others to invest in liking DA:2 could see them save up for both a new system and several new games even if they weren't earning much - so why would you choose to waste all that on trying to like one game, which you have already given a chance?

If you're stuck on a desert island you'll love the taste of Parrot Poo if it's all you have to eat after long enough. Something which you pay money for in order to entertain you shouldn't take that much effort to enjoy though.

why is it so hard for you to understand man? Yes it took me 3 playthroughs.
Dragon age 2 officialy now for me is a badass game. for you it may not be.
The latest patches which actually changed some game mechanics may have their fair share too. go read the patch notes and let it go.

Mate I'm chuffed that you've managed to find pleasure in a game which I could find none. I just don't think most folk should have to go to the lengths you did to enjoy the game, or any game for that matter.

If we make it acceptable fpr game developers to carry on down this road of releasing sub-standard games, with the knowledge that their audience will accept that and wait for patches or invest further playthroughs to appriciate their substandard game, then that's a dangerous precident to set.

I'm glad for you persoanlly that you enjoyed it, but to suggest that it's OK to have to play it through 3 times to enjoy it just says to money-hungry companies like EA, and possibly now Bioware, "skimp on quality, they'll like it sooner or later anyway with mods and bits etc."

We shouldn't accept that.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 30 novembre 2012 - 01:04 .

[ioannisdenton]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

ioannisdenton wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Koveras Alvane wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

I don't think you quite grasp the point in entertainment media though, the fun should far outweigh the labour aspect of it. Whereas I expect to put a bit of effort into getting into a game, say a few hous - even up to 10-15 for some games - I don't expect to have to invest 3 playthroughs before I enjoy something, totalling around 80-120 hours worth of investment before I enjoy it.

You have to appriciate just how much time that is - 2-3 working weeks for most - you could earn enough to buy a whole new system and several other games in that time. Even if you're on minimum wage 80-120 hours would get you a few very good nights out and/or a bit of action too. You really think people would sooner waste their time getting into a game?

It's like an album - some songs take 3, 4 or 5 listens before you like them - sometimes even 10-12 listens - but they are usually 3-7 minute tracks. Expecting people to invest 2 or 3 playthroughs at 80-120 hours each before they start enjoying it is just silly.

Please excuse my bluntness but when you first talk of fun and then start crunching numbers to prove your point, I find it hard to be convinced. Let me put it this way: there are games that are designed to entertain with minimal time and effort investment (like Tetris) and there are games that require time to get into. To the best of my knowledge, most RPGs fall into the latter category. With a game as polarizing as DA2, I cannot help thinking: if some people loved it from the start, some hated it, and some came to love it after giving it a chance, is the game at fault for failing to please everyone or are the players, for continuing to expecting something other than the game ultimately delivers and failing to get the many, many clues?

So if you come to me with "entertainment must entertain me/us from the first minutes on", the only advice I can give is: let yourself be entertained. The game is just bits and bytes on a piece of plastic; the enjoyment is what you do.

You totally miss my point and in doing so avoid the issue - the amount of time you're asking others to invest in DA:2 to enjoy it is way beyond reasonable.

I don't expect an RPG to be instantly enjoyable, but I do expect to be enjoying it some way through the 1st playthrough. Even then I'd give it a second go, but to expect a third chance, for a game the size of DA:2, is just silly.

My "number crunching" is just trying to put that in practical terms for you - the amount of time which you expect others to invest in liking DA:2 could see them save up for both a new system and several new games even if they weren't earning much - so why would you choose to waste all that on trying to like one game, which you have already given a chance?

If you're stuck on a desert island you'll love the taste of Parrot Poo if it's all you have to eat after long enough. Something which you pay money for in order to entertain you shouldn't take that much effort to enjoy though.

why is it so hard for you to understand man? Yes it took me 3 playthroughs.
Dragon age 2 officialy now for me is a badass game. for you it may not be.
The latest patches which actually changed some game mechanics may have their fair share too. go read the patch notes and let it go.

Mate I'm chuffed that you've managed to find pleasure in a game which I could find none. I just don't think most folk should have to go to the lengths you did to enjoy the game, or any game for that matter.

If we make it acceptable fpr game developers to carry on down this road of releasing sub-standard games, with the knowledge that their audience will accept that and wait for patches or invest further playthroughs to appriciate their substandard game, then that's a dangerous precident to set.

I'm glad for you persoanlly that you enjoyed it, but to suggest that it's OK to have to play it through 3 times to enjoy it just says to money-hungry companies like EA, and possibly now Bioware, "skimp on quality, they'll like it sooner or later anyway with mods and bits etc."

We shouldn't accept that.

I agree100%. however i think that Dragon age team pulled it through with the given timeframe unlike Me3.
The first time i played DA2 i wanted to relive a DAO1.5 so i kept comparing DA2 to DAO while i was paying. Not having item descriptions, most rings named  "rings", not unique names , junk items, generic loot, companions were not DAO magnitude, really bothered me. the second time was just a trophy hunting, while the 3 time i run out of rpgs and decided to TRY play da2 again.
This time i really loved it and got past it's flaws that bothered me the first time.
this is the true story.
Yeah it is a shame DA2 was shipped in it's current unfinished rushed form but still the Devs tried to do something new in artstyle, story (more personal less cosmocentric), combat etc.
There really are some great values in DA2. Interactions are great, story while loses focus has some very nice twists and it really is complicated. just try to expalin what happened. you do not know where to start and where to end.
I do not applause DA team for DA2 but i applause them for they created the best game possible ( as i see it) under these circumstances plus the fact they tried something new.
The 2 DLCs are really great and show that they actually listened. They offered me more than 12 hours.
I am looking forward to play again DA2 in the future unlike Me3 which as much with an open mind i played it (2 times) it is generic.

Modifié par ioannisdenton, 30 novembre 2012 - 01:27 .

[Koveras Alvane]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

You totally miss my point and in doing so avoid the issue - the amount of time you're asking others to invest in DA:2 to enjoy it is way beyond reasonable.

I don't expect an RPG to be instantly enjoyable, but I do expect to be enjoying it some way through the 1st playthrough. Even then I'd give it a second go, but to expect a third chance, for a game the size of DA:2, is just silly.

My "number crunching" is just trying to put that in practical terms for you - the amount of time which you expect others to invest in liking DA:2 could see them save up for both a new system and several new games even if they weren't earning much - so why would you choose to waste all that on trying to like one game, which you have already given a chance?

If you're stuck on a desert island you'll love the taste of Parrot Poo if it's all you have to eat after long enough. Something which you pay money for in order to entertain you shouldn't take that much effort to enjoy though.

I think I understand your point better now. But I think that you also somewhat missed my point: not all people had to invest 80 hours into the game to enjoy it. I enjoyed my first playthrough thoroughly from the moment I got used to the new camera and controls, which took me about a couple of hours. A lot of my friends (but not all) had the same experience. What I am saying is that the "unreasonable amount of investment to start enjoying the game" is doubly subjective: the moment when you start enjoying it is entirely up to you (which was the point I raised in my previous post), and what amounts for "unreasonable" also depends on the individual player. Yours truly, for instance, has spent 120 hours on a single playthrough FF13, even though it wasn't pure entertainment from start to finish.

I would also like to point out that the original poster (ioannisdenton) wasn't entirely unentertained by his first playthrough, either. Something must have gotten him hooked on the game the first time around that he decided to give it two more tries in the first place. In other words, some part of him liked it from the start, it is just that only now did he became conscious of this liking.

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

I just don't think most folk should have to go to the lengths you did to enjoy the game, or any game for that matter.

I can agree on that, but I also think that "most folk" (whichever group of humanoid individuals you mean by that label) should a) be more selective about what they play and don't let their expectations cloud their opinion on what they play.

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

If we make it acceptable fpr game developers to carry on down this road of releasing sub-standard games, with the knowledge that their audience will accept that and wait for patches or invest further playthroughs to appriciate their substandard game, then that's a dangerous precident to set.

I'm glad for you persoanlly that you enjoyed it, but to suggest that it's OK to have to play it through 3 times to enjoy it just says to money-hungry companies like EA, and possibly now Bioware, "skimp on quality, they'll like it sooner or later anyway with mods and bits etc."

We shouldn't accept that.

Should we go on the street and start rioting? A world revolution against corporate strategies? I think you are overthinking the whole affair and particularly how little impact we, the consumers, have on the decisions made by effective corporate managers who come up with development deadlines and budget limits.

[Riverland]

I am now going to start and play DA 2 a second time. And I must admit.. I look forward to it! Let's see how it does...

[ioannisdenton]

Riverland wrote...

I am now going to start and play DA 2 a second time. And I must admit.. I look forward to it! Let's see how it does...

If you have some money then get the DLC, be ware of the ps3 version though as playing both of them may corrupt your game (did not happen to me).
But get the DLC MotA and Legacy, they are great, seriously, they breath new fresh air, plus dialogue and roleplaying!

[Dutchess]

Funny, I'm experiencing the exact opposite. The more I think back on DA2, the more I start to realize how bad it was. The companions and the friendship/rivalry system were pretty much the only things I liked.

The story failed. The majority of primary quests relied on a crazy person as the "bad one", because being crazy is far more grey than just being evil. Apparently.

[hawat333]

I'm actually planning on giving it a third playthrough.
If anything, you gotta love the beardless dwarf.

[Major Crackhead]

I've beaten DA2 once. From my impression, it comes across as an "Origins-lite". There's a similar level of depth, but far less actual content. The fact that most of the choices revolved around what you could make happen to the characters rather than how you could affect the world didn't help. Not to say that making choices that revolve around the characters is bad, but there should have been a bigger balance of choices that made you feel as if you were actually affecting the game world.

[Savber100]

Holy ****.

I was about to create a post similar to this.

I hated DA2 and haven't played it since its release but due to a recent lull in new games, I decided to have another go.

And honestly? I'm hooked. The combat is fluid. The story is unlike usual Bioware fare.

Does the game still have major flaws? Yes, it's still pretty damn repetitive. But is it bad? No. If anything this game at least is a 7/10. It's fun but flawed.

Modifié par Savber100, 07 décembre 2012 - 07:12 .

[Welsh Inferno]

See it was the complete opposite for me. I chose to try & enjoy it for what it was the very first time. It got progressively worse not better. Its flaws are just too much for me to enjoy it at all.

[DragonAgeLegend]

I've always loved DA2 from the beginning. I understood why people hated it but for me it was an amazing sequel and I really enjoyed it. DA:O is more amazing IMO but DA2 still has it's charm and awesome(ness). I love them both but DA:O just that little bit more. I'm loving DA:O ALOT more as I'm reading 'The Stolen Throne' and then 'The Calling'. I'm sure once I read 'Asunder' as well I'll love DA2 so much more.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Koveras Alvane wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

You totally miss my point and in doing so avoid the issue - the amount of time you're asking others to invest in DA:2 to enjoy it is way beyond reasonable.

I don't expect an RPG to be instantly enjoyable, but I do expect to be enjoying it some way through the 1st playthrough. Even then I'd give it a second go, but to expect a third chance, for a game the size of DA:2, is just silly.

My "number crunching" is just trying to put that in practical terms for you - the amount of time which you expect others to invest in liking DA:2 could see them save up for both a new system and several new games even if they weren't earning much - so why would you choose to waste all that on trying to like one game, which you have already given a chance?

If you're stuck on a desert island you'll love the taste of Parrot Poo if it's all you have to eat after long enough. Something which you pay money for in order to entertain you shouldn't take that much effort to enjoy though.

I think I understand your point better now. But I think that you also somewhat missed my point: not all people had to invest 80 hours into the game to enjoy it. I enjoyed my first playthrough thoroughly from the moment I got used to the new camera and controls, which took me about a couple of hours. A lot of my friends (but not all) had the same experience. What I am saying is that the "unreasonable amount of investment to start enjoying the game" is doubly subjective: the moment when you start enjoying it is entirely up to you (which was the point I raised in my previous post), and what amounts for "unreasonable" also depends on the individual player. Yours truly, for instance, has spent 120 hours on a single playthrough FF13, even though it wasn't pure entertainment from start to finish.

I would also like to point out that the original poster (ioannisdenton) wasn't entirely unentertained by his first playthrough, either. Something must have gotten him hooked on the game the first time around that he decided to give it two more tries in the first place. In other words, some part of him liked it from the start, it is just that only now did he became conscious of this liking.

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

I just don't think most folk should have to go to the lengths you did to enjoy the game, or any game for that matter.

I can agree on that, but I also think that "most folk" (whichever group of humanoid individuals you mean by that label) should a) be more selective about what they play and don't let their expectations cloud their opinion on what they play.

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

If we make it acceptable fpr game developers to carry on down this road of releasing sub-standard games, with the knowledge that their audience will accept that and wait for patches or invest further playthroughs to appriciate their substandard game, then that's a dangerous precident to set.

I'm glad for you persoanlly that you enjoyed it, but to suggest that it's OK to have to play it through 3 times to enjoy it just says to money-hungry companies like EA, and possibly now Bioware, "skimp on quality, they'll like it sooner or later anyway with mods and bits etc."

We shouldn't accept that.

Should we go on the street and start rioting? A world revolution against corporate strategies? I think you are overthinking the whole affair and particularly how little impact we, the consumers, have on the decisions made by effective corporate managers who come up with development deadlines and budget limits.

That's fair comment regards the amount of time invested. Personally I found 90% of DA:2 a slog and only forced myself through it so i didn't miss anything plot-wise. Looking back I wish I'd have just you'tubed the plot sections now.  But each to their own I guess.

As for expectations I had no pre-conceptions or expectations for DA:2 - I purposly avoided any exposure to it so I could play it as virginially and spoiler-free as possible, and my only expectation was what I'd expect from any game - to have more fun and good experiences than bad ones - which I most certainly did not have at all.

As for rioting well no, that would be a bit overboard lol. But I'm pretty sure that these boards are monitored and, if enough people stick up for DA:2 as an acceptable standard of gaming, then the game companies won't be afriad to release further titles of that "quality" (or lack of depending on your POV).

DA:2 "being rushed" is no excuse either - bad is bad despite the time limit on the product. If they need moer time to make it better they should take that time. If a exec says no then fine, it's the exec's fault the game is bad - but  that still doesn't change the fact that it is bad, whoever's fault it is.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:05 .

[ScarMK]

Compared to other games on the market at it's release, DA2 was easily in the top 3. Comparing it to Bioware's previous work and what they have shown us what they can do... That's where the problem lies.

[Rxdiaz]

Lol, DA2 is a joke.

BioWare should be ashamed of this POS.

If DA3 is anything like DA2 kiss this IP goodbye....

[ioannisdenton]

Rxdiaz wrote...

Lol, DA2 is a joke.

BioWare should be ashamed of this POS.

If DA3 is anything like DA2 kiss this IP goodbye....

Did you read the OP at all?
Try playing this again. it has aged well.
Me3 is the game bioware should be ashamed.
In Da2 at least Bioware tried some new things.
In Me3 they scrapped everything that makes a good replayable Rpg.
Da2 has twice as more replay value than Me3

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

I really wanted to love it, but ended up just liking it. My first playthrough took me over a year to finish. I got distracted by other games and used excuses like "I'm going to wait until all the story DLC comes out before finishing it."

I'm currently on my second playthrough, sometimes switching to my third DA II character when I feel like a change in class and gender. The flaws are still there, even though some of the minor ones were patched out of existence by the good people at BioWare, often because we complained loudly enough (e.g. enemies falling apart into equal-sized chunks when killed). The thing is, even though I still notice the recycled environments, the initial shock is gone and my annoyance and anger has subsided.

The characters are well-written. I don't care what anybody says about them being shallow or one-dimensional, an accusation often aimed at the companions. The companions are all memorable: Isabela is fun, Merrill is adorable, Varric is awesome, Aveline is admirable in her toughness and resolve, Bethany is sweet, Carver is a pain in the butt, like a kid brother should be, and Anders and Fenris can both be incredibly infuriating, which is the whole point, and has nothing to do with "bad writing". Anders and Fenris both have moments when they can be likeable and sympathetic, but it sometimes takes multiple playthroughs to see this side of them.

As far as the DLC companions go, I liked Tallis but didn't care much for Sebastian. Tallis is everything you'd expect an assassin not to be: perky, sweet, awkward on occasion. Sebastian was precisely as dull and humourless as a sworn brother of the Chantry should be, which despite quality writing, made him boring, IMHO.

The story also seems more cohesive the second time through, although it was always solid. BW has never released a game with a really crappy story/ plot.

It's definitely growing on me the more I play it.

On a related note, it's a pity that BioWare never released Dev Tools for DA II. If they had, there's every chance some really devoted fans would have redesigned a bunch of the areas so that we wouldn't have to suffer through the recycled maps over and over again.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 15 décembre 2012 - 01:08 .

[Koveras Alvane]

ScarMK wrote...

Compared to other games on the market at
it's release, DA2 was easily in the top 3. Comparing it to Bioware's
previous work and what they have shown us what they can do... That's
where the problem lies.

I never thought of DA2 as weak even by BioWare standards. It is just different from everything they have done up to that point. They made a leap in an unknown direction and it would be sheer luck if they nailed everything right at first try. Personally, I think the problem lies in a) the stylistic differences between DA2 and DAO that many players refuse to accept for various reasons and in the depressive ending.

Has anyone else noticed that of all the major single-player games BioWare released since KotOR, the ones which had at least one happy/inspiring ending got the best rep (KotOR itself, ME1 and 2, DAO), while the ones that only had bittersweet and downer endings (DA2, ME3) spawned furious debates about their quality? (I omitted Jade Empire because I am ebarassingly uninformed about it.)

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

It's definitely growing on me the more I play it.

That, it does.

On a related note, it's a pity that BioWare never released Dev Tools for DA II. If they had, there's every chance some really devoted fans would have redesigned a bunch of the areas so that we wouldn't have to suffer through the recycled maps over and over again.

You can thank the same reviewers who were so outspoken in their dislike of the game, that BioWare had to axe future DLC add-on after two really good ones, for that. ^^

Modifié par Koveras Alvane, 15 décembre 2012 - 12:36 .

[littlebrightpanda]

I actually like Dragon Age 2 better than DAO. Somehow the first was too epic and trying too hard to achieve that status. And we didn't klick.

DA2 on the other hand had me gripped immediately. The smaller scale was really a nice change in comparison to all those other huge RPGs. And I really adored all the companions and their different reactions based on friendship/rivalry and Hawke's personality. Moreover, the story was pretty decent.

[Nefla]

I actually did try starting a new playthrough a few days ago with the mindset of seeing what I liked and didn't like etc...and what I hoped would be included or cut for DA3. I went in fully aware that I hated the plot, exploding enemies falling from the sky, 3 unique maps in the entire game, etc...and was prepared to suffer all that to achieve my goal and to enjoy the character interactions as I did the first time. Unlike the OP however, I hated it more than ever! My love for the first game was a huge driving force behind finishing DA2 but my blind faith/goodwill was used up a long time ago. This time, stuff that I glossed over the first time because I liked the character interaction really stuck out and bothered me, and the stuff I hated originally was 10x worse. Needless to say DA2 has been shelved again and Skyrim is back where it belongs. Drinking the whole gallon of sour milk knowing it's bad after the first taste isn't going to make that milk un-curdle.

[Rxdiaz]

Exactly. A lousy game is a lousy game. I don't care how many times you play it.

[STJebus]

Dragon age 2 is like Mass Effect 2, I have replayed them endless times because I love intereacting with the characters in them and that's all there really is to it. They are both my favorite games in their series's because i love going back to talk to isabela and sebastian, and Grunt, and miranda, and see how they're reactions change to the choices I make

[NoForgiveness]

STJebus wrote...

Dragon age 2 is like Mass Effect 2, I have replayed them endless times because I love intereacting with the characters in them and that's all there really is to it. They are both my favorite games in their series's because i love going back to talk to isabela and sebastian, and Grunt, and miranda, and see how they're reactions change to the choices I make

that's just bioware not da or ME. They're just awesome like that

[Uccio]

For me Da2 was boring, repetitive,bland, plastic, seriously underestimating the player and overall inferior ME ripoff compared to DAO.

[Pandora1839]

I am going through the sixth playthrough...yes I've been mage, rogue, warrior both male and female and eveytime i play it I love it more. Ok so some things need improving like the very obvious copy and paste caves/ruins/warehouses etc. But on the upside the characters are great that I really get caught up in their stories. I love the banter between them. it's so easy to play on pc just the mouse and space bar. The music is awesome! I wish there was an expansion pack though with some improvements because i have all the other stuff including the Mage/Ruge/Warrior item sets. Please please Bioware, I want more!